Ukraine vs Russia

[wxman]

Mervin,

I have been to Lugansk many times, as that is where my fiancee is from. You are right about the age deal. However, if a man in his 40s focuses on women in their 30s and 40s, he will probably meet many more wonderful women with higher education, more maturity, just as beautiful and a better head on their shoulders than the younger gals in their 20s. Nothing against the ladies in their 20s, but maturity comes with age, and there are many wonderful women in their late 30s and 40s that the men in their 40s overlook. I'm glad I did not do that.

[mervin]

Mervin,

Educated in ethnography but you seem to overlook the obvious chauvinistically.  Women uninterested in men under 40 would certainly not talk to you.  If they were also interested in men over 40 they may not even tell you.  Many UA women of all age groups state they did not like men under 40.  I met my wonderful wife and never dated even close to 30 women.  Over 30 seems somewhat high.  Are you seeking a serious relationship? 

Muj, the ethnography comment was meant as a bit of a jest to answer a larger question. Believe me, I'm no anthropologist and I didn't even like it that much. I sure as hell wouldn't spend 3 weeks in Ukraine and thousands of dollars if I weren't serious. There's no way a person goes to Ukraine with Jack and doesn't meet lots of women. Personally, I think it's bad idea to spend so much on a trip and then not take the time to meet a lot of people. I'd say that not meeting with a lot of people is what makes a person not serious - especially considering a lot of the first trip is spent doing scouting and not engaging in a prolonged relations.  However, with that said, I do agree that it's bad to meet too many girls. During the last week of my trip I stopped following Jack's formula and started focusing more on the ones that I found I did like. 

[mervin]

Mervin,

I have been to Lugansk many times, as that is where my fiancee is from. You are right about the age deal. However, if a man in his 40s focuses on women in their 30s and 40s, he will probably meet many more wonderful women with higher education, more maturity, just as beautiful and a better head on their shoulders than the younger gals in their 20s. Nothing against the ladies in their 20s, but maturity comes with age, and there are many wonderful women in their late 30s and 40s that the men in their 40s overlook. I'm glad I did not do that.

Well I'm envious wxman that you've been to Lugansk so many times   I think you're absolutely right.

[IAmZon]

Pop! Mir is the winner.

Mir wrote: "If there is a 50 year old Western man, who has two divorces under his belt, has a balding head and a paunch, not too bright and has no social skills to attract any woman in the West. If he thinks that he can find a pretty young woman in FSU the he is mistaken.
Then there are men of the same age who have kept themselves fit, who are witty and intelligent, mostly successful in their carers. They are confident to approach a woman regardless of her age and beauty.
These men have a good chance of finding a much younger and pretty woman in FSU. In many cases such men will be considered a better catch then the 20 something boys who are meeting many women at the same time.
However I doubt such men will be found on marriage tours. I think they will use a more subtle and privet way of approaching women."

Nothing more EVER needs to be said about -
best approach
age gaps
League
motivation

Well said.

[Muj]

Mir, well said, you understand the situation and obviously have the better experience  .

Wxman, congratualtions, we are both happy in our marriage outcomes.

Mervin, first you brag of your dating adventures and claim it part of being serious.  Then you say you dating so many is not good.  Maybe take a breather and decide on what you want before you spend more time and thousands of more dollars.  Are you writing some of the girls?
I found anthroplogy very interesting.

[jb]

mervin,

Speaking as one of the older generation men who has successfully married a younger woman, may I be the first to say you are talking out your arse.   In our case there is a 13 year age difference, and I've met lots other very happy couples with a 10-15 yr gap.  I only know one couple with a 20+ yr difference and they are fine with it.

And,,, since also I know 99% of all statistics touted on internet discussion board are made up on the spot,,, well, I think you get my drift.

Anthroplogy, huh... Maybe you should have taken some hard science courses.   

[Vaughn]

I was driving back down from the mountains this morning and
thinking the same thing. We're older, Merv, also a 13 year
difference in age, and things're fine.

At least, she hasn't chased me with the rolling pin yet....

Vaughn

I'd say this, though: despite age gap, large or small, in
my almost 57 years on Earth, I've noticed that courting
ladies in their 20's is an extremely volatile activity.
Care and Caution, all the way.

[KenC]

Mervin,
Your conclusions are almost comical.  Hmm, your scientific evidence of observing a few older guys while on tour just won't cut it here.  First of all, everyone here knows that tours are usually a losers way to do things,  And what were YOU doing on a tour?  Not enough self confidence to go it solo?  The average guy you will find on a tour has little similarity to the average guy you will find here.

On your comment that an older man will have to meet 3 times as many women to find one interested in him (and that you have met 30 women and worked with 10 agencies)-- Another big HMMMMM here.  What is wrong with you?  (that you couldn't find an acceptable woman in 30 tries?)  Did you do any prep work at all?  Or were you just fishing blindly?  Using your "logic" I would have had to meet in excess of 90 women to find a good one.  Seems peculiar that I have been happily married for the last 8 years with the first Russian woman that I ever spoke to and met.  If your youth is such an advantage, why then are you still so alone?
KenC

[Gator]

Vaughn wrote,

I've noticed that courting ladies in their 20's is an extremely volatile activity.  Care and Caution, all the way.

Very true.  The experienced women in the upper 20s say the same about 31-yo men, claiming that they have no idea of what they want.

Mervin wrote,

I had a lot easier time finding girls who were interested in me than did the other [older] guys.

To say that, I can only assume TurboGuy was not with your tour.

Even if I were in my early 40s, I would still gladly leave all the 21-yo girls to you and instead go after women. 

During the last week of my trip I stopped following Jack's formula and started focusing more on the ones that I found I did like.

Good decision.  What was the result?

[Gator]

Mir,
Good comment. 

[mervin]

Mervin,
Your conclusions are almost comical.  Hmm, your scientific evidence of observing a few older guys while on tour just won't cut it here.  First of all, everyone here knows that tours are usually a losers way to do things,  And what were YOU doing on a tour?  Not enough self confidence to go it solo?  The average guy you will find on a tour has little similarity to the average guy you will find here.

On your comment that an older man will have to meet 3 times as many women to find one interested in him (and that you have met 30 women and worked with 10 agencies)-- Another big HMMMMM here.  What is wrong with you?  (that you couldn't find an acceptable woman in 30 tries?)  Did you do any prep work at all?  Or were you just fishing blindly?  Using your "logic" I would have had to meet in excess of 90 women to find a good one.  Seems peculiar that I have been happily married for the last 8 years with the first Russian woman that I ever spoke to and met.  If your youth is such an advantage, why then are you still so alone?
KenC

Thanks for the reply Ken. Well, I am sorry if I got you upset with my comments. I agree with you, I think that tours are usually not the way to go at all. Though I mentioned before that I went with Jack Bragg in case you didn't read that part. It's not really what I'd call a tour, but for lack of a better word lets go with that word for now. But considering I was by myself for the majority of the trip, I was the one who was making a lot of the calls to the agencies, and I called most of the shots I'd say the way I did things was less like a tour and more like customized trip. The only thing I was obligated to do with Jack was to go his parties. Of which there were 2. That was the only part of the trip that resembled a tour. Persnoally, I don't think there was anything wrong with the way I did things. I wanted to try a new experience and I was happy with it. I'd been to Russia solo before and for the first week I was in Ukraine I was alone. I didn't meet up with Jack until May 9 in Kiev. I'd say the confidence factor isn't really an issue at all. If you go with a guy like Jack you're going to be working with or be introduced to a lot of agencies. I also think that maybe things are different today (on average) they were 7-8 years ago when you got married. What I'm pontificating about applies to today. I can't comment on how they were 7-8 years ago because I wasn't there during this period.

I found lots of acceptable ladies, so I was happy about that. I found 1 in Kharkov, 2 in Lugansk, 1 in Kiev and 1 in Vinnitsa. The two that I met in Lugansk I talk to a lot as a matter of fact. But keep in mind that I did things Jack's way this trip. Would I have done it this way had I not used his services? Probably not. But I'm happy with the way things turned out all the same. The first trip is a bit of a scouting trip, so I wasn't there to find any one lady to spent time with. It was just a meet and great trip in which I would try to find ladies with whom there was mutual chemistry. I'm going back in a few months to spend more time with the 1-2 ladies that I narrow it down to. I think I know a lot about the FSU. I tend to study up a lot before I travel, so I think I had things in order pretty well before I got on the plane.

Well I'm glad you didn't have to meet many in order to find your one Ken. I think I acknowledged pretty clearly that there have been success stories, and I also said that on average older guys seem to have to meet more girls in order to find the few. I don't really think that is flawled logic Ken and I'm not trying to offend anyone with the remark.

[Turboguy]

Mervin,
Your conclusions are almost comical.  Hmm, your scientific evidence of observing a few older guys while on tour just won't cut it here.  First of all, everyone here knows that tours are usually a losers way to do things,  And what were YOU doing on a tour?  Not enough self confidence to go it solo?  The average guy you will find on a tour has little similarity to the average guy you will find here.
On your comment that an older man will have to meet 3 times as many women to find one interested in him (and that you have met 30 women and worked with 10 agencies)-- Another big HMMMMM here.  What is wrong with you?  (that you couldn't find an acceptable woman in 30 tries?)  Did you do any prep work at all?  Or were you just fishing blindly?  Using your "logic" I would have had to meet in excess of 90 women to find a good one.  Seems peculiar that I have been happily married for the last 8 years with the first Russian woman that I ever spoke to and met.  If your youth is such an advantage, why then are you still so alone?
KenC

Ken, it is great that you were able to find your true love with the first woman you met.  Having done so does not make you much of an expert on tours however.   I might agree with you to an extent on big agency tours although I think the big agency tours are more a group of people who really know little about what they are doing and have been lured in by agency hype.  In the crowd will be many losers as you might call them and many who are just new much like someone who wanders in here would be.  

However we are not talking about big agency tours, we are talking about Jack's tour.  Have you ever picked up a copy of USA today and seen an ad for Jack's tour.  Jack recruits here and on other forums.   You said the people on tours are not the same quality as people here.  The people on Jacks tours are the exact same people who are here.   I have been on three big agency tours and one of Jack's and the difference is night and day both in the quality of the men and the quality of the women and in the systems he uses to conduct his tours.  They are basically the same systems the guys here use and recommend but in done in a highly organized and efficient way.

I have to agree with Mervin a little that if someone is looking for a woman in the same age range he is looking they may have to meet many more women to find the right one.  If they are looking for someone 5-10 years younger than they are there should be no difference.  Actually they might have an easier time since the women over 30 there have a harder time finding a good RM who is interested in marrying them.

To get back on topic as far as Russia and Ukraine I think there are good women to be found in both.  I think going where not as many men go is a good strategy.   Siberia has some wonderful woman, Eastern Ukraine has some wonderful woman.  These days I think avoiding Moscow and St Petersburg is a good plan.  I might add Kiev into that but I think Kiev still has some potential.  It does seem to me as unscientific as my assumptions are that there are more women in Russia who speak English than in Eastern Ukraine and a common language can make a big difference.   I think places like Omsk, Barnaul, Novosibirsk and other cities in that region are good places to go.  

Gator, Correct, I was on Jack's fall tour and I will agree with his comments.  Jack's tour is a great way to go and particularly for someone new to the scene.  

[ScottinCrimea]

Like KenC, I'm happily married to the first Russian woman I ever met and spoke with.  There is a 15 year age difference, but the level of maturity is equal and I think that's the key.  wWhen looking for a longterm relationshi p we tend to gravitate toward those with a similar level of maturity.  That is, unless you're looking for a surrogate daughter.

[KenC]

Mervin,
As tours go, Jack's are the best.  I have even sent a friend of mine to Jack.  I was a little pissy with you because I took offense to your age difference remarks (which I still think are off base).  The truth of the matter is no one knows when (and if) they will meet Miss Right!  It may be the first, second or tenth.  Now if a man makes it a ten year piece of work, I gotta think he has some problems.  The point was that "tours" are usually a beginners way to go and most of the members here are quite experienced.  Most of the "old" guard here are quite savvy but then again there are a few that never learn no matter how old they get.
KenC

[Turboguy]

LOL,  Is that aimed at anyone in particular Ken? 

If I had not wasted so much time and money on big agency tours I know my search would have ended much sooner but I sure can't classify Jack's tours as a waste.   As it is, I am glad things went the way they did.   I might have found a good woman sooner but no one that would compare with the one I did find.

[I/O]

Not really I'd say, only a few thousand years of observing

Sandro: I didn't think even you would make that kind of admission.

Go to the poorer areas and the choices are wider.  Anyone else notice the flaws in this logic? I'll prempt my comment by saying I've been in some of the poorest areas of Russia along with some of the most affluant and I've met some fine and very classy people from both poor and wealthy backgrounds, although they may not be equal on a material basis, they have been equal on a moral and ethical basis. 

BUT..!!!  In a game where the risks are high, mitigating risk is basic good sense.  Find a lady from a financially secure base and you cut out at least one of the risks and that is the possability of her trying to escape a difficult financial situation. Therefore I think the logic of aiming first at the poorer areas is seriously flawed, although maybe easier for some to get an early strike. Frankly I think it is a lazy mans approach. 

Give me the lady who is very difficult to convince I am worthy of her every day of the week.  As for the rest, I'll pass.

I/O

[SANDRO43]

Sandro: I didn't think even you would make that kind of admission.

You know, in advanced old age one cannot be really certain what numeric keys one is hitting when filling out the birthdate in a profile questionnaire .

[Pike]

I take exception to some of the remarks about differences in wealth in Kyiv vs the large cities in Eastern Ukraine, and about differences in education and sophistication in the gals in Kyiv vs the large cities in Eastern Ukraine, and the differences in 'hungriness' of the women for meeting WM in the various cities.

Sure, there might be some statistical differences in average wages, etc., but I saw equal signs of prosperity in all major Ukrainian cities.  The streets are full of Mercedes, BMW, Audi, etc. in Luhansk, Donestk, Kharkov, Dnipro, etc on the same scale as you will find in Kyiv.  I found no statistically significant differences in restaurant prices in the various Ukrainian cities.  There are upscale and downscale restaurants in each city.  Match up the same scale restaurant in each city and the prices will be within a hair in any of the cities.

Ladies from the major cities in Eastern Ukraine are every bit as educated and sophisticated as the ladies in Kyiv.

And conversely,  I found the ladies of Kyiv to be not more snobbish than those in major Eastern cities.  Maybe it is true that more WM visit Kyiv than the eastern cities.  But I found the women in the eastern cities to  be no more 'desparate' than those in Kyiv; and in fact found no desparation in any city.  The women were mostly all still thinking they were 'homecoming queens,' regardless of the city and the  supposed lack of local men and lack of visiting foreign men.

I could write similar things about various Russian cities.

[ScottinCrimea]

It could just be that after meeting certain men they don't feel so desperate anymore.

[catzenmouse]

It could just be that after meeting certain men they don't feel so desperate anymore.

 

[Thor]

I think you are probably right about Belarus and in some places in Russia too. But to be honest with you Bruce, Ukraine is still a great place too, even in the well traveled cities. Almost none of the girls I met with in Kharkov had met many met at all, and Kharkov is supposed to be a fairly well traveled to city. In Lugansk, I was either the first or second man any of the girls had met. At least this is what they were telling me. I'm not in a position to think they were being dishonest so I believed them.  I agree, character is key for sure.

I'm not coming into this discussion with a statistical analysis. There is no doubt that many decent older guys have made it work with younger girls. But by in large I think it's a lot of work for people to be trying to pick a country in which they stand the best chance to find a young, 20 something girl when the relationship is a mismatch from the start.

By the way, I agree with you about Kharkov! It's a great city!

Eastern UA is a great place to go. Everything Jack says about Lugansk is true. I was there for 7 days and I can vouch for it first hand.

Why am I mentioning the age factor? Well, because I was in Ukraine with a group of men, all of whom were at least 10 years older than I was. In some cases we were going after the same girls. I'm 31 for the record. I had a lot easier time finding girls who were interested in me than did the other guys, and the experience taught me something. First and foremost, it's better and easier to be younger. Second of all, it's not always a good idea for older men to focus on young girls.

I respect differing opinions of course  

Hi,

I went with Jack tours in 2005 and I had a good time, and I belive jack is the best in the tour business!!! But as you say,it is not a really tour, you go to socials and after this it is acktualy up to your self to be sucessfull.
I totaly agree with you about Kharkov. It is anice and safe city where VERY few forreigners go to meet girls, dont ask me why but I seldom see forreign men in Kharkov. Maybe it is to fare away from Kiev??

[Thor]

Maybe it is true that more WM visit Kyiv than the eastern cities. 

[/quote]

MAYBE?????????????? Hello have you been to the eastern Ukr cutys and have you been to Kiev?? If so you would meet more forreign men on Khryshatik in 1 day walking than if you spend 2-3 months in any eastern Ukr city.........

[mervin]

Thor, I was in Kharkov when Jack met with you this past May. I was in Poltava on that Saturday afternoon however! Too bad I didn't get the meet you. Though we did go out to the night clubs you recommended to Jack. Though I thought Bolero (I killed the spelling probably) was far and away the best club!  I don't remember the name of the other club you told Jack about, but we went there as well and I did not much care for the place. It was dead that night. Guys, if you go to Kharkov, the best club to go to is Bolero!

I loved the Kharkov zoo as well! I was surprised how good of a zoo it was. You guys even had a Tucan, and almost no one has those! 

Seeing as I've only been to Kharkov once, I can't claim to be a know-it-all on this city, but I can tell you that the ride from Kiev to Kharkov (via trian) aint exactly a short ride, so I can see why foreigners don't travel there much. If I remember correctly the distance from Kiev to Kharkov is only about 400 miles, but it takes the train all night to get there.  It's a much more pleasant ride if you've got your own private train car.

[RK]

mervin...the all night train is a good option to max out your day hours, sleep at night, and save on a hotel/apt. However, there are two daily express trains in both directions between Kiev and Kharkov. One leaves early morning and the other leaves late afternoon and takes about 5 hours and 50 minutes.

I just got home yesterday afternoon after spending a short five days in Kharkov. I visited the zoo for the first time myself this past Sunday and thought it was better than I expected. Definitely not the San Diego or Washington National Zoo, but nonetheless enjoyable.

[mervin]

You are right RK, but I think you must be talking about the express train. I took the slower train. It didn't leave until about 9pm at night and it did not arrive in Kharkov until about 7am the next morning if I remember correctly.