Universal standards for good conduct . . . or not??

[Pike]

Re the thread on cost of English lessons:

WmGo wrote: "What WM, newbies, intermediates even the experienced need to realize is that there are certain standards of human conduct that are expected everywhere in every country.......One of the biggest mistakes a WM can make is to assume inappropriate conduct of an FSUW  is somehow just a cultural difference and therefore to be overlooked. It isn't. Such inappropriate conduct should not be overlooked."

I am late to this thread.  However, a quick reading (particularly the exchanges between WmGo and ScottinCrimea) seems to boil down to the question of whether:

a) there are universal standards that define good behavior, or

b) do the standards of acceptable behavior vary from area to area.

This is probably the forte of cultural anthopologists.

I had an interesting talk with a medical doctor on a long transatlantic flight recently.  He had been on medical missions to several countries giving free medical care.  He told me such things as: In some countries it is good manners to burb loudly after the meal.  A person who couldn't force up a burp either was saying they didn't like the meal, or were simply being rude by refusing to follow the accepted custom.

So as first go around in this topic, it needs to be discussed whether or not there are universal standards that define good behavior with respect to interpersonal (non-business) relations.

[Ste]

For some reason I'm reminded of one of my favourite jokes....

Guy buys his dream bike, a Harley, and upon handing over the cash he asks the seller how he keeps the chrome so shiny and blemish free. Guys says:

"Simple, every time a see even a drop of rain I immediately coat the chrome with vaseline; here have my tube, I don't need it now!"

He thanks him and rides home on his new wheels.

Later, his new girlfriend arrives and announces:

"We're having dinner with my parents tonight!"

He says:

"Ok! we can go on the new bike..."

They arrive and just before knocking on the door, his girlfriend confesses:

"Listen, we have this funny custom at home, the first one to speak does the dishes, ok?|

OK he thinks, might be fun. The door is opened and there are unwashed dishes everywhere, on the settee, on the stairs, piled high in the kitchen.

They sit in stony silence, the meal over, no-one daring to utter a word. So he thinks, ok, I'm not speaking first but I'll get someone to, so he whips out his todger and makes love to his girlfriend on the table, under the noses of her parents. Nothing. Still silence.

So he thinks, hmm, her mum's not bad, and does the same to her, still no-one dare speak.

They sit in silence.

However, he becomes distracted, he notices a few drops of rain on the window, and thinking about the Harley, gets his tube of vaseline out.

The father says:

"OK, OK!! I'll do the fückin' dishes...."

I'll get me coat....
 






 

[Mir]

So was that good behaviour or bad?

Pike

Every place will have different standards but when it comes to acts that cause harm to others the basic ideas are the same everywhere.
So it is bad to murder, rape, steal, cheat, lie, deceive etc everwhere in the world.

[I/O]

So as first go around in this topic, it needs to be discussed whether or not there are universal standards that define good behavior with respect to interpersonal (non-business) relations.

At a micro level there is a variety of cultural differences from area to area, however at a more macro level, having travelled much of the world without ever having had too many problems, I've noticed that a Gentleman or a Lady generally elicit the respect by recognition of most at almost any social level.  Part of fitting into that catogary IMO is having a degree of respect or at least quiet tolerance for the local customs.

I/O

[Turkey]

STE that was really funny!

Pike, great question.  There seems to be an ongoing discussion about the whole giving gifts/money/ scam thing, which ties into the 'greedy' discussion.  Culturally, from what I can gather in Russia (and in the US) men will buy presents for their girlfriends.  How do you do that without getting scammed?

I think there are universals like no incest.  But I think there are a lot of cultural things.  Mir brings up some things that on the surface I think everyone would agree to.  But, i've been really struggling with some of them with some of the articles i've been reading about bribery in Russia.  From my perspective, it seems pretty dishonest to engage in bribery but in Russia it seems like that is par for the course.  So how does a WM stay 'honest' while respecting local customs?

[Wayne B]

STE that was really funny!

Pike, great question.  There seems to be an ongoing discussion about the whole giving gifts/money/ scam thing, which ties into the 'greedy' discussion.  Culturally, from what I can gather in Russia (and in the US) men will buy presents for their girlfriends.  How do you do that without getting scammed?

I think there are universals like no incest.  But I think there are a lot of cultural things.  Mir brings up some things that on the surface I think everyone would agree to.  But, i've been really struggling with some of them with some of the articles i've been reading about bribery in Russia.  From my perspective, it seems pretty dishonest to engage in bribery but in Russia it seems like that is par for the course.  So how does a WM stay 'honest' while respecting local customs?                                         Turkey, if caught in U.S. go to jail.....If caught in Russia/FSU....go to jail, without padding the palm.....but, only if you are caught in violation of not doing your 'homework'....If you have it together....then 'No Problem'

[Gator]

There are no international standards.  Instead, we each have our own set of standards.  These are our values.  It is our internal compass. 

It is important for me to find a woman whose values do not conflict profoundly with mine.  Although tolerance is one of my values, this does not mean that I must live with something that upsets me. 

[jb]

Gator,

I would tend to agree with that notion,,, there are things that irritate me to no end.  I've found those tendencies in both AW as well as European women.  My moral compass is not calibrated to true north in many cases, it is somewhat skewed to what suits me.  Those areas I will not compromise on, are honesty and faithfulness.  At the first sign of a dfference of opinion I would run like a deer.  (Prolly was why I was single so many years).  I was lucky to find a woman who had the same values, and we clicked.  But it is an individual issue, not a universal one.

Good luck to anyone who thinks he has found a "Universal" answer to interactive people skills.

[ScottinCrimea]

I debated the whole bribery issue at length and finally I arrived at the following conclusion:  A waiter in the US gets paid $2.13 an hour.  He/she depends on tips to supplement this pay.  Tips are an incentive to provide better service.  If you look at the police or government employees in the FSU in the same light it makes sense.  Their pay is abominable.  They depend on "tips" (bribes if you like) to make ends meet and support their families. If you pay them the "tips" they provide better service.  I think if I were in their position I would do the same.  Just as we in America accept tips as part of the cost of eating out, the people in the FSU accept "bribes" as the cost of better government service.

[Lily]

  Tips are an incentive to provide better service.  If you look at the police or government employees in the FSU in the same light it makes sense.  Their pay is abominable.  They depend on "tips" (bribes if you like) to make ends meet and support their families. If you pay them the "tips" they provide better service.  I think if I were in their position I would do the same.  Just as we in America accept tips as part of the cost of eating out, the people in the FSU accept "bribes" as the cost of better government service.

I don't think so.

Cops are not the service providers to people. They act on behalf and on the name of the state. It's their duty to serve and protect (see the words on the U.S. police cars). People pay taxes to the state, therefore the state owes protection to the taxpayers, what is done also through the police.

There can be no way of any sort of *improving the service* here.

[Turkey]

Gator,

I would tend to agree with that notion,,, there are things that irritate me to no end.  I've found those tendencies in both AW as well as European women.  My moral compass is not calibrated to true north in many cases, it is somewhat skewed to what suits me.  Those areas I will not compromise on, are honesty and faithfulness.  At the first sign of a dfference of opinion I would run like a deer.  (Prolly was why I was single so many years).  I was lucky to find a woman who had the same values, and we clicked.  But it is an individual issue, not a universal one.

Good luck to anyone who thinks he has found a "Universal" answer to interactive people skills.

I think we need to clarify the question a little bit perhaps.  Maybe the question is not really 'is there a universal' but really is 'what would you tolerate'?

Each of us have a morality or code of ethics that we live by whether we are aware of it or not.  We do things that we think are 'right' and avoid things that are 'wrong'.  If others are behaving that is against what we think is 'right' then they are 'wrong' for behaving in that manner from that individuals perspective. 

I agree with what you and Gator are saying.  I posted a link to an article about attitudes toward adultry in the odds and ends section and hope to get some perspective from our FSU friends here.  For me and many Americans ( I think the world thinks we're prudes), the adultry is a marriage breaker.  It's not only that your spouse had sex with another person.  The bigger issue is trust.  After your spouse breaks that trust, you can try to move on but you will always remember that they broke that trust. 

Perhaps the question is really about tolerance for those we think are 'wrong'.  One thing that peaked my interest lately was an article about polygamy.  On the whole there have historically been some repulsive things associated with this practice.  But the way it is practiced by some Mormons today seems to me to be a lot better than a lot of monogamous marriages .  It is officially 'against the law', so they are law breakers.  The article said that there was a lot of sympathy from the public about their situation and because there are so many of them that the authorities say they really can't prosecute them.   Splitting up families is really bad PR for a police department.  But should it be illegal?  I mean if we allow same sex marriages in some states shouldn't we allow other alternative relationships? 

With the bribery, I don't think Russians think it's 'good'.  It's just the way it is.  Everything else equal, I think they would prefer not to have it.

[ScottinCrimea]

I both agree and disagree with you.  Your view is the ideal, not the reality.  "To Protect and to Serve" (The slogan of the LAPD) should be their mission.  Unfortunately, it doesn't always seem that way in the FSU for many reasons.  Waiters act on behalf of and in the name of the restaurant they work for.  I think ideally the restaurant owners should pay them a decent wage and we shouldn't be responsible for giving them tips to get better service.  But for some reason that's the norm and we accept it without question.  Why?

Now Turkey, I need to correct some errors in your post.  For the record, no Mormons practice polygamy today.  It was outlawed by their church over a hundred years ago and any member who practices it is immediately excommunicated.  There are some splinter groups and cults who claim some sort of tie to the Mormon church but the church renounces any association with them.

Personally, I think the whole idea of polygamy being illegal is a bit strange.  It's okay to live with a bunch of women but just try and make the arrangement formal in any way and you're carted off to jail.  Hugh Hefner has three live in girlfriends and he's a playboy.  Some guy in the deserts of southern Utah has three that he claims to have married and he's a criminal.

As for me, one wife is more than enough and at some times too much.

[Turkey]

ROFL, I know some might be thinking the guy may be blessed or cursed but seriously there are polygamist.

They consider themselves Mormon and true believers and disagree with giving up polygamy to enter the Union.  And yes I understand that church doctrine says that the change could only come from the official head, but there it is.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070612/ts_nm/usa_mormons_polygamy_dc

"Adds Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff: "We determined six or seven years ago that there was no way we could prosecute 10,000 polygamists and put the kids into foster care. There's no way that we have the money or the resources to do that."

The last big prosecution, in 1953, backfired. Arizona's National Guard raided a polygamist colony on the Utah/Arizona border, but images of kids split from mothers, with fathers jailed, provoked national sympathy for the polygamists. "




I came across this today and think it helps to identify some differences between Russian and American cultures.  It's a study done with college students from Russia studying in the US and college students from the US studying in Russia.  The appendix was very interesting.

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICDocs/data/ericdocs2/content_storage_01/0000000b/80/23/1d/32.pdf

[BillyB]

  Tips are an incentive to provide better service.  If you look at the police or government employees in the FSU in the same light it makes sense.  Their pay is abominable.  They depend on "tips" (bribes if you like) to make ends meet and support their families. If you pay them the "tips" they provide better service.  I think if I were in their position I would do the same. 

Most everybody is hurting for money in the FSU. Lack of money is not an excuse to commit crimes accepting bribes or prostitute oneself. Cops in Uzbekistan makes about twice the average wage of the citizens that live there yet most cops fill their pockets up. There are times in America where cops give out many speeding tickets but the money goes into the city's treasury and the money is put to good use for the public and hopefully it's used to keep taxes down. Big difference on where the money goes after cops stop people in the FSU and Western nations.

Just as we in America accept tips as part of the cost of eating out, the people in the FSU accept "bribes" as the cost of better government service.

Bribes make the FSU cops and government serve the public better? I don't think so. If there was a traffic accident and there was a dispute on who is at fault. The person who gives the cop/judge the biggest bribe will not be at fault. Not my kind of better service. Not my kind of justice.

Sure things get done faster when you bribe a government employee to get your documents processed faster. Better? Not for everyone else who can't afford to bribe as you cut in line and other people's documents will now take longer to process. Better service for one, but not for most.

[acrzybear]

I don't think so.

Cops are not the service providers to people. They act on behalf and on the name of the state. It's their duty to serve and protect (see the words on the U.S. police cars). People pay taxes to the state, therefore the state owes protection to the taxpayers, what is done also through the police.

There can be no way of any sort of *improving the service* here.

  I am a Sergeant with a mid-sized  (200 Officers) Department and the thing people forget is that the police reflect the values of the society they represent. When I started in the early 90's you could not have any tattoos visible while you were in uniform, now you have Officers with tattoos on their lower arms, neck and legs (looks good when wearing shirts-NOT!!) In California if you had a marijuana seed you could go to prison for up to 2 years, now unless you have a couple of pounds you're just looking at paying a fine with no jail time.

  The police just enforce the laws that people (or their elected officials) vote for.  Example is the national speed limit was raised from 55MPH to an average of 70MPH.  If I found out one of my Officers was taking money from someone for either performing or not performing their duty-then I would have a morale and legal obligation to have that person fired.  In the U.S we are supposed to be held to a higher standard then the general public, but alas that is not aways so.

[Gator]

If I found out one of my Officers was taking money from someone for either performing or not performing their duty-then I would have a morale and legal obligation to have that person fired.

Hi Crazy bear.  Good to have the arm of the law chatting with us.  I thought accepting a bribe is a felony, hence proscecution is your legal obligation. 

Scott, you have been in Ukraine too long.  Time to return.  For sure a bribe to a policeman or government servant is not a tip for service.  It is wrong.   As long as corruption (as well as other aspects such as rule of law) is a central part of business and life in the FSU, some basic benefits of a free market economy will not be realized.

[ScottinCrimea]

As I spend time in Ukraine and observe things that are different than in the US, I try not to jump out with a quick conclusion of "That's right" or "That's wrong" or "That's better than in the US" or That's worse than in the US".  Things are the way they are and things are done the way they are done for some reason.  I try to understand the logic and the reason behind things.  I certainly don't agree with how many things are done in Ukraine, nor do I practice them personally or promote them to others, but by spending time to observe, ask questions, and discuss, I at least understand them and why people in Ukraine believe and act the way they do.  Not all of them, but enough to form a general opinion.

Most of you here go to the FSU as a vacation or to find a woman.  You don't have enough time, your mind is too filled with other concerns, and you are too limited by the language barrier to have the types of in depth discussions with the number of people necessary to really understand many things other than on a superficial level.

I think many times here when I try to explain thoughts and ideas behind some of these things, many take that for me agreeing with or condoning the behavior.  I don't know how many times I have had to explain some Western behaviors that I also don't agree with or condone.  It can be very difficult explaining Western thinking to them or FSU thinking to those from the West.  I see Jazzy and Lily sometimes get caught up in this same problem and people misinterpret what they are trying to explain.

[I/O]

Scott:  I hear where you are comming from, however regardles of how well we understand the rationale, history leading to, or logic behind a given result, if the result is no good then there is not much point. Better to promote change for the better IMO. 

I've done exactly the same thing so many times.  That is being in another country for exteded periods and thinking well ok this is the way it is, why is it this way and yes this is why, so it is accepted.  That is the whole problem with the developing world.  Far too much historical pride pervades current methodology in many cases.

The reality is those countries/people who have embraced change are the countries/people doing well today.  Russia for example has fiercely resisted change for centuries and the result is what we have today.  Commercial and statutary morality (Ethics) is simply not on the same plain with much of the devloped world and that leaks into so many other areas.  Therefore there has become a "Grab what you can now" are deal with tomorrow tomorrow mentality.

The ironic part of this is that it tends to run against the underlying psychi of many ordinary Russian people who are naturally among some of the most generous folk I have met. The more I read (And I do read quite a lot of good material) of the late 1700's through to mid 1900's Russian history, the more I see things being very much the same throughout. 

Ukriane by comparison has relaxed and progressed in some areas quite a deal, largely because of the recognition of the value of the tourist dollar.  I have been saying for 10 years, when Russia gets serious about tourisim, the economy will flourish, however frankly I don't think it will ever happen because the man on the street wont be able to stand the transition period as we saw exampled in the 80's and 90's.  BTW I am not suggesting tourisim in and of itself is the answer, but rather the business minded people it brings into new areas and ultimately their investment dollar. 

Until rank and file economic conditions change substantially, I am doubtful if we will see much difference in the way bribes are taken of "Fees for better service" are charged in Russia or much of the east.

I/O

[BC]

I found this book very interesting.. filled a few gaps in the puzzle of FSU psyche.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russka-Edward-Rutherfurd/dp/0099635208

Yes good economic factors can help moderate problems but will never eliminate them.  Governments all over the world know that corruption eats away at society but unfortunately efforts to combat it usually start by 'cleaning up' at the bottom.  To me that is putting the cart before the horse.

Fees for better service.. well it would be nice if such could be officialized in RU, unfortunately little if nothing would filter down to those providing such exceptional service.  Take as an example fees for expedited passports in the US.  Does anything filter down to the processing clerk who gets one more application put on the top of the stack on his desk?

OTOH one could view such systems as allowing an economically privileged group ahead of the rest.

Yeah quirky subject.  Maybe it's best to let the 'system' work as it does until the time comes when a proven better system can replace it.

[I/O]

Yes good economic factors can help moderate problems but will never eliminate them

Correct...!! However, the guy (or girl) on a couple of hundred dollars per month or less, has no choice but to be "On the take" in order to survive.  Put him/her on a grand or more a month and the necessity evaporates.  Sure some will continue to do the same thing and it may even take a generational change for it all to filter through. 

There is a difference between need and greed.  Sure there is some sheer greed involved, but much of the underhanded behaviour at a grass roots level in this area in the east has been driven by need in the first instance.

The group of activists who followed the "Decmberists" were of the opinion that until the "Serf/Peasant" problems could be resolved, Russia's problems would never be resolved as it was driving corruption at the most simple and basic levels, even within families.  From what I can see, by and large the peasant problem these guys talked about has never been resolved and maybe never will be.

Perhaps at times these things pervade relationships, even international relationships, particularly in the early stages and IMO these matters need to be ironed out before getting too involved with another person.  I guess I have been fortunate in striking someone who shares my values in so many of these areas.  In our case, standards that I would consider "Universal" have been applicable, perhaps that is simply blind luck.

I/O 

[WmGO]

Interesting thread. When I used the phrase "universal standards of conduct" I basically meant what Mir said, with particular reference to the lying, cheating and deceiving aspects:

Every place will have different standards but when it comes to acts that cause harm to others the basic ideas are the same everywhere.
So it is bad to murder, rape, steal, cheat, lie, deceive etc everwhere in the world.

This could probably also be expanded in the direction of the Golden Rule a little bit (I have known many FSUW that live by the treat people the way you would want to be treated philosophy). For example, some WM may wonder if it is normal for an FSUW to yell or raise their voice at them in a rude or disrespectful way. The answer is of course it is improper, but the man may throw aside common sense and think maybe this is "just a cultural difference". I am sure everyone could throw in more examples. Here is a classic: man meets woman for the first time and she tries to take him on a shopping spree. He thinks this isn't quite normal, but maybe that is normal in FSU so maybe it is ok. Or the lady he is meeting for the first time makes a point of constantly steering the two to the most expensive restaurants in town. And the WM doesn't realize that good FSUW don't do these things. Or maybe he does not know that good FSUW do not have sexual relations with a man on the first "date".  Or maybe he thinks it is normal that when he goes to meet the lady in her country that she is only available for a couple of hours each day to meet with him otherwise leaving him to fend for himself. Or maybe it is normal for a lady to say one thing in a letter and then the facts are the opposite when they meet (oh, I just misunderstood what she said about not smoking or never drinking, it is my fault for not understanding the cultural difference that "I don't smoke" or "never drink" doesn't really mean that so when she said these things in her letter to me she was being honest )..................

Changing gears, I agree with what Lily, Turkey, BillyB, acrzybear, Gator and I/O said on the bribery issue. It is a scourge in FSU (and many other countries). Russians and Ukrainians hate it but feel impotent to do anything about it. If given a vote that would somehow be magically binding it would be 99 to nothing in favor of prohibiting it.

I/O good post on FSU culture and I agree with what you say there. I think that in addition to improved economic conditions to spur change in how FSU people treat and deal with each other it is vital that  true civil society be encouraged and developed. And btw, I also agree with your first post about Ladies and Gentlemen traveling in foreign countries. One of my pet peeves is seeing my countrymen traveling overseas and not respecting local customs or complaining out loud about them as if the whole world is supposed to be like it is back home. I also hate to see Americans poorly dressed and being loud and boistrous in public. I think Ladies and Gentlemen don't do those things at home or when traveling overseas.

[Mir]

Pike's song :

To all the girls I've loved before
Who travelled in and out my door
I'm glad they came along
I dedicate this song
To all the girls I've loved before

To all the girls I once caressed
And may I say I've held the best
For helping me to grow
I owe a lot I know
To all the girls I've loved before

The winds of change are always blowing
And every time I try to stay
The winds of change continue blowing
And they just carry me away

To all the girls who shared my life
Who now are someone else's wives
I'm glad they came along
I dedicate this song
To all the girls I've loved before

To all the girls who cared for me
Who filled my nights with ecstasy
They live within my heart
I'll always be a part
Of all the girls I've loved before

The winds of change are always blowing
And every time I try to stay
The winds of change continue blowing
And they just carry me away

To all the girls we've loved before
Who travelled in and out our doors
We're glad they came along
We dedicate this song
To all the girls we've loved before

To all the girls we've loved before
Who travelled in and out our doors
We're glad they came along
We dedicate this song
To all the girls we've loved before

[Mir]

Kuna's song:

Ooh
Its so good, its so good
Its so good, its so good
Its so good
Ooh
Heaven knows, heaven knows
Heaven knows, heaven knows
Heaven knows
Ooh
I feel love, I feel love
I feel love, I feel love
I feel love

I feel love, I feel love, I feel love

Ooh
Fallin free, fallin free
Fallin free, fallin free
Fallin free
Ooh
You and me, you and me
You and me, you and me
You and me
Ooh
I feel love, I feel love
I feel love, I feel love
I feel love

I feel love, I feel love, I feel love

Ooh
Ill get you, Ill get you
Ill get you, Ill get you
Ill get you
Ooh
What you do, what you do
What you do, what you do
What you do
Ooh
I feel love, I feel love
I feel love, I feel love
I feel love

I feel love, I feel love, I feel love

[Mir]

Daveman's song:

Hell is gone and heaven's here
There's nothing left for you to fear
Shake your arse come over here
Now scream
I'm a burning effigy
Of everything I used to be
You're my rock of empathy, my dear

So come on let me entertain you
Let me entertain you

Life's too short for you to die
So grab yourself an alibi
Heaven knows your mother lied
Mon cher
Separate your right from wrongs
Come and sing a different song
The kettle's on so don't be long
Mon cher

So come on let me entertain you
Let me entertain you

Look me up in the yellow pages
I will be your rock of ages
Your see through fads and your crazy phrases yeah
Little Bo Peep has lost his sheep
He popped a pill and fell asleep
The dew is wet but the grass is sweet, my dear
Your mind gets burned with the habits you've learned
But we're the generation that's got to be heard
You're tired of your teachers and your school's a drag
You're not going to end up like your mum and dad

So come on let me entertain you
Let me entertain you
Let me entertain you
He may be good he may be outta sight
But he can't be here so come around tonight
Here is the place where the feeling grows
You gotta get high before you taste the lows
So come on
Let me entertain you
Let me entertain you
So come on let me entertain me
Let me entertain you
Come on come on come on come on

[Mir]

Mir's song:

When the outside temperature rises
And the meaning is oh so clear
One thousand and one yellow daffodils
Begin to dance in front of you - oh dear
Are they trying to tell you something ?
You're missing that one final screw
You're simply not in the pink my dear
To be honest you haven't got a clue
I'm going slightly mad
I'm going slightly mad
It finally happened - happened
It finally happened - ooh woh
It finally happened - I'm slightly mad - oh dear !
Ha ha ha ha ha

I'm one card short of a full deck
I'm not quite the shilling
One wave short of a shipwreck
I'm not my usual top billing
I'm coming down with a fever
I'm really out to sea
This kettle is boiling over
I think I'm a banana tree
Oh dear
I'm going slightly mad
I'm going slightly mad (I'm going slightly mad)
It finally happened - happened
It finally happened - uh huh
It finally happened - I'm slightly mad - oh dear !

Uh uh ah ah
Uh uh ah ah

I'm knitting with only one needle
Unravelling fast it's true
I'm driving only three wheels these days
But my dear, how about you ?
I'm going slightly mad
I'm going slightly mad
It finally happened
It finally happened - oh yes
It finally happened - I'm slightly mad !
Just very slightly mad !
And there you have it !