RW with Children

[BC]

Thor,

Sorry to burst your bubble... but since you have no experience with children your arguments are mute and suggestions quite insane.

[Vaughn]

Thor, I hope you understand that Sohkay was labeling your
advice as stupid, and not you personally. There will
be many schools of thought on this matter. The conservative
legal approach is mine. Time is on their side.

I've been seeking the name of an attorney in Yoshkar Ola for
a friend on a Yahoo board, for there was a member who claimed
to have such contacts. When pressed for a name, he had only
strongarm methods to offer. Buying admin favor for a signature
might be commonplace, but we're talking about a child here -
and IMO that's a significantly different matter.

BC, thank you, I take your comment as high praise.

[Thor]

Thor,

Sorry to burst your bubble... but since you have no experience with children your arguments are mute and suggestions quite insane.

Again and again and again I just say that I know peoples, I know peoples who knows how to deal with sutch cases, I know how sutch cases have been solved in the past and so on. When you have been many times in the FSU you get a pickture of things have been and are solved in FSU. This is not like in the west. Money talks in FSU!! It is NOT a lawyer soceity like in the US!!!!

[Thor]

Thor, I hope you understand that Sohkay was labeling your
advice as stupid, and not you personally. There will
be many schools of thought on this matter. The conservative
legal approach is mine. Time is on their side.

I've been seeking the name of an attorney in Yoshkar Ola for
a friend on a Yahoo board, for there was a member who claimed
to have such contacts. When pressed for a name, he had only
strongarm methods to offer. Buying admin favor for a signature
might be commonplace, but we're talking about a child here -
and IMO that's a significantly different matter.

BC, thank you, I take your comment as high praise.

I understand this Vaugn, I just offer a advise, but how can someone say it is stupied since they dont know what kind of peoples I know in Ukraine? This is NOT a strongarm advise. I dont know anything about "strongarms" and how to find sutch stupid help. It is as simpel as know the rigth peoples and ask them what to do...

[Thor]

And then I ment the rigth peoples in Ukraine.

[BC]

Again and again and again I just say that I know peoples, I know peoples who knows how to deal with sutch cases, I know how sutch cases have been solved in the past and so on. When you have been many times in the FSU you get a pickture of things have been and are solved in FSU. This is not like in the west. Money talks in FSU!! It is NOT a lawyer soceity like in the US!!!!

Thor,

It has nothing to do with lawyers or money or how things work in the FSU... It has to do with what is 'right'.  Especially when kids are involved the ONLY correct way is to do it the 'right' way.

There is nothing in the world that will corrupt a kid more than his/her parents.. I don't care if they are 6 months old, they are capable of absorbing what goes on around them, or will in the future.  Believe me, the ultimate loss for a child is loss of respect for the parents.  It may take time to realize this but in the end the effort will be well worth it.

[Thor]

Thor,

It has nothing to do with lawyers or money... It has to do with what is 'right'.  Especially when kids are involved it is ONLY correct to do it the 'right' way.

There is nothing in the world that will corrupt a kid more than his/her parents.. I don't care if they are 6 months old, they are capable of absorbing what goes on around them, or will in the future.  Believe me, the ultimate loss for a child is loss of respect for the parents.  It may take time to realize this but in the end the effort will be well worth it.

I totaly agree with you here BC!!!

[William3rd]

I gotta say something on this issue of paying for false documents.

This view of Thor's will not work for the US. If dad goes into court and gets a custody order and serves it on the Department of State, you will have federal marshals at your house faster than you can say Dag Hammersjold.

To go this route, you have to bank on dad not finding his way through the system or not caring enough. Aside from the moral and ethical issues.

And as the fraud unravels- it is a permanent bar to the United States to make material misrepresentations of fact to gain an immigration benefit.

I would also wonder about the personality of a woman who would do this and what else she might do-for her own convenience after she gets overseas.

BC- you get the nod in this discussion.

What kind of people are you meeting in FSU and who introduced you. Birds of a feather. . . . . . . . .

[BC]

I gotta say something on this issue of paying for false documents.

This view of Thor's will not work for the US. If dad goes into court and gets a custody order and serves it on the Department of State, you will have federal marshals at your house faster than you can say Dag Hammersjold.

William,

There is a 'grey' area when it comes to many FSU countries that do not particpate in the Hague Convention.  Even still, I assume falsified documents would likely carry great weight in any courtroom.

In my previous marriage with a European woman our daughter was abducted by her biological father to the US.  The system worked exactly as you stated.

[Thor]

I gotta say something on this issue of paying for false documents.

This view of Thor's will not work for the US. If dad goes into court and gets a custody order and serves it on the Department of State, you will have federal marshals at your house faster than you can say Dag Hammersjold.

To go this route, you have to bank on dad not finding his way through the system or not caring enough. Aside from the moral and ethical issues.

And as the fraud unravels- it is a permanent bar to the United States to make material misrepresentations of fact to gain an immigration benefit.

I would also wonder about the personality of a woman who would do this and what else she might do-for her own convenience after she gets overseas.

BC- you get the nod in this discussion.

What kind of people are you meeting in FSU and who introduced you. Birds of a feather. . . . . . . . .

Of course this wont work in the US, but Ukraine is a totaly differendt soceity. In the US you can go to court because the coffe is to hot in Mcdonalds...).

You can wounder of the personality of a woman who would do this, but what about the fathers who leaves the girl with the child, or leave the girl when he realizy that she is pregnant. But when he can smell some easy money from a forreigner he will show up.... I can understand the that the girl dont want to leave any money to a guy like this. This is Ukraine....Money, money, money..

[Vaughn]

Thor, when my stepdaughter arrived in the USA she was almost
13 years of age. When she interviewed in Moscow, and when
she waltzed through passport control in NY, not once did the
officials ask for any permission document.

Turn the clock ahead a few years. Now she's 16 and wishing
to spend the summer with Dad, Grandma, and all her friends
in Mari-El Republic. But she's needing her own passport.
What is the first question the Russian Embassy in
Washington DC asks?

Well, do you have a court order permitting you to have
exited Russia with your father's permission?

Sometimes these snakes take years to bite back. In our case
we were covered. No problems. Not all the "Money Money" in
the FSU could have bought her the privilege to return there
unchallenged. We sleep well at night.

[BC]

We sleep well at night.

ahh... isn't that what this is all about?

Enjoy!

[Vaughn]

ahh... isn't that what this is all about?

Enjoy!

Sure is!  I will admit that approaching her ex was not something
my wife relished. She put it off until the matter could no longer be avoided.
Yoshkar-Ola is a smaller city, about 250,000 but still, word gets around.
Don't think that ex-hubby hadn't heard through the grapevine that his
darling daughter was North Carolina bound. Elvira was somewhat relieved
when he asked, "So what's all this talk I hear?" He, at the time, was driving a
marshrutnoe taxi, a regular route. They decided to go directly to the
courthouse, in the marshrutnoe, and finalize the matter - on the way,
he intentionally passed up many fares with a practically empty vehicle,
with waiting customers raising clenched fists as the two sped by.

We still laugh about it. 

[William3rd]

Your ukrainian false document wont work here either. If the original is produced, then it is all over.

Hey- why dont you have the guy killed? Same mentality isnt it?

And plese dont argue about two wrongs. . .

There are already too many child stealing bastardos and bastardas out there who make the same excuses to try to justify their own contempt of the rule of law.

[BillyB]

I could not do that to the daughter. She is a wonderful and happy child and is close to her mother and myself. Using her as a chess piece to solve a problem that exists between the ex, my fiancee and myself would be cold and upsetting to the child. I would rather wait 2 or 3 years than to hurt that child in such a way. The ex is the type of guy who would take the child for a month in Moscow, and then abandon her.

 If he wasn't a bad guy you would not be using the child as a chess piece by giving him the option to take care of the child for a few years. What most of us men forget, when we are to marry a foreign woman with a child, is that we are about to take the child away from her father possibly forever if not most of his life. It would be a considerate gesture if the mother offered to let the child live with the father for a few years before the child is out of his life.

If the father is to sign papers and give a lot to the ex, it would be nice if his ex, the woman you you're to marry, gave a lot too.

Wxman, I hope your fiancee always remembers your devotion to her by being able to wait as long as you will have to.

Vaughn, It's good that you had a sensible approach to how to get your wife's ex to release his child. It's even better that your wife's ex has reasonable head on his shoulders.

I certainly could not release my own child to live in another country. I'm not an A-hole but I love my kids too much. How many of you child loving men out there could sign papers to let your child move away to another country?

[Sohkay]

BillyB,
One size does not fit all.

[Gator]

How many of you child loving men out there could sign papers to let your child move away to another country?

Of course, never.  However, there were weak moments during teenage years, when I would have paid for someone to take them away.

[Vaughn]

 It would be a considerate gesture if the mother offered to let the child live with the father for a few years before the child is out of his life.

Billy, this of course is not a sweeping conclusion, but let me relate a quick story
about that scenario, as it happened here in our city. Our friend did just that -
left her daughter, then 15 with her Dad, while she married an AM.

A few years passed, and the time came for the girl to join her Mom
and the AM. She arrived, then was gone in a week. Our friend was
heartbroken, the relationship between mother and daughter drifted
into indifference. The young girl had grown up without Mom, developed
independence, had fended for herself largely during the teenage years,
and had trouble making the adjustment. She fled quickly back to the
father.

FWIW, my own wife would NOT have crossed the ocean without our
daughter. Had she done so, I can guarantee things here would have
never worked out for us. Good thing they are both so loveable, as they
definitely came as a package deal. Just our experience.....

[William3rd]

On the other hand, there are other cases where the woman leaves the child with dad and 6 months later, Dad is willing to pay for the child to leave.

Most of the time, it seems, that Gramma steps in and takes charge.

[Rvrwind]

And as the fraud unravels- it is a permanent bar to the United States to make material misrepresentations of fact to gain an immigration benefit.

Sorry William, but that is just about the funniest thing I have read lately!!! I know you are serious & I agree that legally is the best way to go for all concerned. But when I read that & thought of the thousands of illegal Mexicans in the US & instead of shipping them out they are going to make them legal it just seemed to make that statement redundant!!
I think the main reason it should be done legally is, for me anyway, that if wxman is going to be the stepdad what kind of message & lesson is he going to be teaching this child, 'that it is okay to do things outside the law.' I doubt that would be a good example to follow & certainly a bad lesson to teach. I commend him for his patience & fortitude in his situation, it will serve him, his lady & the daughter well in the long run.

[wxman]

I have noticed a trend the past 5 years with FSUW who
have never been married going ahead and having a child.

Personally it would not bother me if the woman has a small
child.

I wonder what rights a FSUM has to cause the kind of problems
wxman is having where the parents were never married. I guess
a lot has to do with who is listed as the father on the birth certificate. This raises another question that I also wonder about - with respect to all of these FSUW who are going ahead and having a child out of wedlock who are they typically, if at all, listing as the father? I don't expect anyone here to know the answer to that last question but it sure is interesting.

She didn't have the child out of wedlock. Her ex husband is causing the problems. Either way, I don't know if it would make a difference whether she was married or not.

[ScottinCrimea]

I certainly could not release my own child to live in another country. I'm not an A-hole but I love my kids too much. How many of you child loving men out there could sign papers to let your child move away to another country?

I love my children as much or more than any man here, but if I saw that they could have a better life and more opportunities if I released them to live in another country, you bet I would do it.  I;m not so selfish as to deny them a better life because I can't bear to have them away from me.  As a parent, we often have to make choices to do what is best for our children at sacrifice to ourselves.  Being away from them would be hell, but living with a decision that had denied them something better would be worse.

[Lily]

I have noticed a trend the past 5 years with FSUW who
have never been married going ahead and having a child.

Personally it would not bother me if the woman has a small
child.

I wonder what rights a FSUM has to cause the kind of problems
wxman is having where the parents were never married. I guess
a lot has to do with who is listed as the father on the birth certificate. This raises another question that I also wonder about - with respect to all of these FSUW who are going ahead and having a child out of wedlock who are they typically, if at all, listing as the father? I don't expect anyone here to know the answer to that last question but it sure is interesting.

I don't look in the law right now but hope I could answer by memory. In this case the mother should have a right to show any male name as patronymic  for her child on her discretion. Sometimes mothers use their own father's name, but they don't have to.

Also, I guess (not sure though) that at applying for the birth certificate the mother can state that her child has no father, at least she doesn't know his name. In this case the BC should be issued without any information on father. The respective fields will be then striken off in the BC.

Yes, the birth certificate is the main document of the child, and the father is the person who is shown as father. If the field is striken off, the child has legally only one parent, the mother.

[jb]

Lily,

Your post brings a smile to my face.  In the situation you discribe, if the girl can't remember the name of the man who got her preggers, it usually mean one of two things, firstly, she may not be a very bright girl,,, or secondly, she is a girl who routinely has multiple sex partners each month and has no interest in remembering their names.  I would not want to be married to a dim woman, nor a prostitute, no matter how pretty she is. 

[William3rd]

And that scenario is very common-where the mother didnt want the father involved or to have a future right. Later striking of the parent is not common, not acceptable, and suspect.