My Personal Rant - IMBRA sux!

[macman]

I read a post today that had a young lady that sued a marriage agency because her husband beat her - the article went on and on how prevelant this is.  I sort of got pi$$ed off when I read it and thought I'd post my thoughts.  Young lady's name - Natalia ???  I can go find it upon request.

American men are fed up with the attitudes of the women here.  Are they free?  Are they equal?  Do they have family?  The point is that men have learned to pay attention to women and learn them for happiness.  Equality? Maybe - but can an orange be equal to an apple or a banana a strawberry?  I think not.  While it's a known fact that "good" Russian women ages 40 - 45 have experienced much pain;  pain from Government and pain from men.  Most men are still like that in Russia, having many women, trading woman in for younger ones etc..  While men in America are similar in some regards, we have learned to pay attention to the emotions, care for the mate and truly make love for pleasing the mate, not for pleasing self.  This is a Christian perspective and while marriage will always be a challenge - having a woman that is totally dedicated to the cause makes the man wish to work harder to make it work and therefore, international marriage between a Russian woman and an American man will always prove to be an exciting challenge of culture and experience.  Most American men that venture to Russia are educated, articulate and capable of supporting the family with NO financial help from the working woman.  It is the woman's choice to work or not to work outside of the house - she can focus on the family or work or whatever to make this union function.  There are 250,000 Russian women on the Internet every year.  Only 4% ever marry an American man.  Approximately 4000 to 5000 women marry per year.  Out of that number, 20% of the marriages fail.  Mostly due to the age difference or actual reason or purpose the woman came here - usually in the 20s and early 30s come only to get here.  Out of the 4000 women that marry - 1% are physically or emotionally abused - Compared to the 20% abuse in current Russian marriages. This was read from an INS demographic study a few years ago.  I finally add - 60% of marriages in America fail (50% within the Church). Our chances are much better going international.


Much more than 0.517040 RUB at todays rate. . .

c ya.

mm

[Turkey]

Good post Mac 

[William3rd]

The failures are ALOT higher than 20%.

Quit smoking that romance tour boo. . . .

[BillyB]

Macman,

Could you post a link to where you read a 20% divorce rate for international marriages?

[macman]

Quit smoking that romance tour boo. . . .

YO Will#3, is that not redundant in the family?  HEY BILL, everybody turns. . . kidding - I'm a jr., however, I have NEVER entertained a tour of any sorts.  I've been on my own tour several times - besides, I quit smoking "boo" many years ago.  These were my personal feelings coupled with facts based on an INS study late 90s and my distaste of the things that I read about MBO yadda yadda.  Nothing to substantiate "their" claims - but, who are these people?  Feminazis, les. . . whatever.

Sorry, I'm passionate about some issues!

later.
mm

[Sohkay]

So, the failure rate is 40%...double what was proposed...it seems this still bests the commonly spoke of 50%.

Yes?

It really all boils down to this (in my estimation),...are you the best of friends...or are you on track to be the best of friends...that one one person in the world you can unconditionally trust.

This is a good relationship.

This type of relationship will win out over time.

[macman]

Hey BillyB,

I will. . . however, I don't feel like diggin' tonight.  I have found it in more than one place.  Even on a rebutal to the article that Natalia sued the marriage agency and won some 400k or something.

c ya
mM

[Gator]

Macman,

There is no reliable info on divorce rate for AM/RW marriages.  You may have come across an old study that has been criticized.

The most scientific study that I have read gave preliminary results on the order of 90%!  The researcher died before completing the study, and that was the last I heard (about 4 years ago).

Who knows what the rate is?  For sure, it is higher than 20%.  And I say for sure it is higher than the AM/AW marriages.

The answer is simple - know your woman!

You may very well be passionate about this endeavor, and have optimistic dreams, and a lovely aura.  Nevertheless, just spend a lot of time with your woman.  There is no substitute for time together.

I probably should go find that preliminary scientific study.  It will upset your passionate fantasy.

[macman]

Dang Gator. . .

Now I may have to do some serious research, else - why play the odds.  I've read it many times, even in the book I'm reading now "Wedded Strangers".  Quite an interesting read; however, she has all her references - I'll check it out later.  I think with a little digging within the 202 area code we may be able to have the truth on this matter.  There sure are a lot of agencies, books and web sites (mis)reporting this nr., all the rest of the nrs are from INS study. . . accept AW-AM divorce rates - that's common knowledge.

:-(

mm

[groovlstk]

Gator's right, as usual.

Everything else being equal, just the fact that your woman is leaving behind her family, friends, job, culture, language, way of life - in essence, everything in the world that's dear to her - I can't believe that the success rate for AM/RW marriages is better than the norm. You'll never understand the enormous stress this will have on her - and neither will she - until you bring her here. You can believe all the agency crap about traditional women, etc., yet you're only deceiving yourself.

However, given the proliferation of one-week wonders and guys who buy into the stereotypes and specifically seek out women younger than their daughters, a good portion of those statistical trainwrecks are inevitable. If you use your head and take the time to get to know your girl, you'll have as fair a shake as any. 

[William3rd]

I think that the failure  rate is equal to the national rate, if not higher, but that is based on a discrete pool of clients of my own and a couple other attorneys in the field.

[macman]

I think that the failure  rate is equal to the national rate, if not higher,

However W3rd, nobody has any proven statistical data to substantiate this value regardless of what we have read, feel or think.  Skewing it further may be demographics involved within the U.S.! 

I am taking this task upon myself to contact the INS and start a research of viable data in which to provide "me" firstly, and ultimately us on the RWD to know the truth.  If nothing else it will make good folderol for discussion sake.

c ya
mm

[William3rd]

You are right, which is why the already discredited tour agencies trot out their pet study-which says nothing really. I have a copy of it. THey recommend turning the immigration issues in this area to some Filipino lady who wrote a book.

I will recommend to Billary that you be nominated for Secretary of Homeland Security for your efforts!!!

[Admin]

Natasha Spivack of Encounters International was, I believe, the Defendant in the lawsuit you reference - and she lost.

Tahirih Justice Center was the main legal force for the plaintiff - and, not coincidentally, they were also the intervenor in the case which European Connections brought in Georgia against the IMBRA legislation. That is, TJC intervened on behalf of the US Government to defend IMBRA.

TJC has an enviable record of success, and of fund-raising.

BTW - Encounters website has a page dedicated to their own presentation of statistics. As they have a vested interest, one might consider their stats to be biased - but you can find them here --  http://www.encount.com/statistics/

FWIW

- Dan

[macman]

I will recommend to Billary that you be nominated for Secretary of Homeland Security for your efforts!!!

I am sorry, I cannot accept the nomination. . .  I've been addicted to the anti-Hillary movment drug - OxyClinton for too long.  I'm useless in this altered state of right wing reality.

Nevertheless Dan, the Plaintiff did receive 400K right? 

Mm

[Admin]

I am sorry, I cannot accept the nomination. . .  I've been addicted to the anti-Hillary movment drug - OxyClinton for too long.  I'm useless in this altered state of right wing reality.

Nevertheless Dan, the Plaintiff did receive 400K right? 

Mm

Ya know - someone else mentioned that $400k figure - and I just do not know. My guess is it was the jury award - but that does not necessarily equate to what the Plaintiff would have received. In any case, it seems Natasha is still in business, so whatever the award and recovery, she is still operating - which is, IMO, a good thing.

And BTW - I have not had a lot of contact with her, but the little contact I've had suggests Natasha is a pretty decent agency owner.

Again FWIW

- Dan

[Jet]

I am taking this task upon myself to contact the INS and start a research of viable data in which to provide "me" firstly, and ultimately us on the RWD to know the truth.  If nothing else it will make good folderol for discussion sake.

Me thinks folderol is about all you can hope to come up with. There are far too many variables to take an accurate reading. Don't plan on BCIS providing you with anything concrete either, IIRC one of the markers in that old study was the number of women who returned home before the end of the first year of marriage. This was based on I-94 records. My wife returned home before the end of the first year of marriage, and yet we're still married - so much for the statistics 

[Simoni]

I read a post today that had a young lady that sued a marriage agency because her husband beat her - the article went on and on how prevalent this is.  I sort of got pi$$ed off when I read it and thought I'd post my thoughts. 

American men are fed up with the attitudes of the women here.  Are they free?  Are they equal?  Do they have family?  The point is that men have learned to pay attention to women and learn them for happiness.  Equality? Maybe - but can an orange be equal to an apple or a banana a strawberry?  I think not. 

 Most American men that venture to Russia are educated, articulate and capable of supporting the family with NO financial help from the working woman. 

Mac, you are a great guy.  But not everyone is like you in this quest.   Some of the things from your quote compel me to comment...

I think there is a lot of abuse FSU women take from American men when they get here.  Just in my brief walk in this life of international marriage, I've already met two women who were beaten by their American husbands, and had to run for their lives.
Can it be faked? Of course. But it's a fact that many insecure men "pick out" an fsu girl they can dominate.  You question "prevalent," but I think abuse is quite common.

I do agree that MOST American men who seek international brides are as you described. However, after spending lots of time in the FSU and observing how American men act there, I'm sure of one thing.  The average American I saw in the FSU was NOT as good as the average American I see in the USA.  Our best simply don't go there.  Some do, of course, but the numbers are skewed by the rogue element.

And finally, I must protest your depiction of American women and their "attitudes."  American women are among the best women in the world.  Just because I got a divorce from one AW does not make them all bad.  In fact, the comments made by guys here are also skewed....MOST have had bad marriages or marriage that ended in divorce..

Well... you did call this a rant....so guess I can join in....
but from a different perspective.

~Si

[BillyB]

I think there is a lot of abuse FSU women take from American men when they get here.  But it's a fact that many insecure men "pick out" an fsu girl they can dominate. 

If a man wants to dominate women, FSU is not the best place to go as the women there aren't famous for being submissive.

The justice department did a study of international marriages in the 90's and found there was more DV between American marriages than marriages that involved one American and one foreign spouse. Although the media likes to portray men who look for foreign women as violent, I think the truth is closer to men being non-violent. Just look around and see how many guys are suckers for a pair of legs and send money to win a woman over. Many of these guys will spoil a woman and treat her like a princess if they could ever catch one.

I agree the average guy seeking a foreign wife is a loser compared to the average guy at home. But consider this, if only 5% of the losers get on a plane to find a foreign wife and only 2% actually marry one, then 98% of the losers who pursued a foreign wife initially will end up with a woman at home or will have to live with the fact no woman anywhere wants them.

[MaxxumUSA]

I think there is a lot of abuse FSU women take from American men when they get here.  Just in my brief walk in this life of international marriage, I've already met two women who were beaten by their American husbands, and had to run for their lives.
Can it be faked? Of course. But it's a fact that many insecure men "pick out" an fsu girl they can dominate.  You question "prevalent," but I think abuse is quite common.

I don't think any of us here have a "Scientific poll" type exprience or actual poll we have to work with.  I think if someone came up with a truly fair way to monitor marriages between AW/RW over the course of say - 5 years - or 10 years - that would be interesting.

You met these two women who claimed to be abused.  The difficult thing is to put this into any sort of meaningful guestimate of how many by percentage this happens to.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying it is difficult to say there are "a lot" of RW that take abuse from AM based on knowing two incidents.  If you knew 100 random couples and some were abusive relationships - how many would be "a lot?"  10 out of 100?  20?  1? There are some people that would say that 1 out of 100 is too many.  Others might say that "a lot" must be the majority - so 51 out of 100.  AND - for the record note that I said abusive relationsihps and not AM abusing RW.  From my first hand experience and second hand observations an abusive relationship rarely has only one participant.  I am not referring to only physical beatings.

I do agree that MOST American men who seek international brides are as you described. However, after spending lots of time in the FSU and observing how American men act there, I'm sure of one thing.  The average American I saw in the FSU was NOT as good as the average American I see in the USA.  Our best simply don't go there.  Some do, of course, but the numbers are skewed by the rogue element.

Again...  are you referring to the men that may be considered sex tourists?  How many american men did you see in FSU?  Were they in major cities on WMVM missions?  Or WOVO?  I ask this because I have also met many american men here in the FSU.  Out of the 6 I have met I would say 1 was basically here to get laid and not much more.  BTW I say here because I am sitting in Russia right this second in my Elena's flat while she works.  In any case...  the other 5 men I met were on their first, second, or third visit to see one RW.

NONE of them were involved in forums - not even VisaJourney.com.  I gave a few of them the websites so they could seek advice but none have signed up and PM'd me that they are here or on VisaJourney. I bring this up because this leads me to believe that there are MANY stories we never hear beyond the very good and the very bad.

And...  the men I met all seemed like very good men.  Granted they might not be able to "Attract" the cream of the crop women in the USA.  But they all seemed sincere good catches for a woman if they were given a chance.

My experience, like yours, is limited.  But it is almost opposite.  I am staying a little deeper in russia than most go - Samara.  This is where I have run into these men flying in or out of the airport.  I also run into some very nice couples often that are coming to adopt Russian orfans.

And finally, I must protest your depiction of American women and their "attitudes."  American women are among the best women in the world.  Just because I got a divorce from one AW does not make them all bad.  In fact, the comments made by guys here are also skewed....MOST have had bad marriages or marriage that ended in divorce..

Now... Simoni...  I have said before there are many things in the USA I am proud of.  I am a true patriot.  Decorated veteran as a matter of fact.  I own american cars.  My only complaint is the women. Compared to the looks, family, and work ethics to the women in Russia - the typical AW does not hold a candle to a RW.  Especially when it comes to the WEIGHT issues - but please let's not start another thread on that...  I am dissapointed at the options in USA because of this problem.

To say american woman are the best in the world - well...  in what way that is important to a man seeking a lifelong partnership?

American women I think have made great strides in independence in the last few decades.  It is VERY common for me to meet successful women that make near or more than six figures.  This is ONE type of woman I have dated over the years.  But how is it that a woman working 60 hours a week as an attorney will help develop a family into a stronger unit?  Especially if her husband is in a similar position.  That's one kind of woman - a woman with a desire to be successful professionally without regard to the effect on family, if they even want one at all.

Then there are women who make little money - single or divorced mothers - that don't even have (or want) custody of their children.  They are IMO selfish and care about the game with single men and their GF's.  Party time with little regard to the responsibility of developing a strong family.  And...  if they meet a man that is willing to "save" them, help get their children, help them be more successful, typically they will not accept this very well...  because this means they will need to stick with just one man, and actually care for the important things.

I have dated MANY AW.  The above is based on my personal experience and observations of these women.

The days in the USA when little girls dream of having a husband and children I think have been gone for a while.  Girls are taught different values based on their surroundings and observations.  I have met a VERY small percentage of AW who even come close to this way of thinking.  And when I say way of thinking - I mean actually following through with a commitment.  This I believe is one cause for a high divorce rate in the USA.  They treat divorce like it's just breaking up.  "NO biggy...  I'll leave him because there are so many other men out there willing to put up with my crap."

My frustration with this over my 11 years as a divorced bachelor frustrated me to the point where I said enough is enough.  Then I started opening my eyes GLOBALLY to finding a good woman.  In the (unforseen) event something doesn't work out between me and Elena...  I doubt I will ever seek an AW again for any type of relationship.  Just tired of trying to twist an AW arm and convincer her that FAMILY is more important than whatever crap THEY think is more important.  They just don't get it.

I make generalizations here - but I do this based on my view, opinion, and experience.

[Lily]

I agree the average guy seeking a foreign wife is a loser compared to the average guy at home. But consider this, if only 5% of the losers get on a plane to find a foreign wife and only 2% actually marry one, then 98% of the losers who pursued a foreign wife initially will end up with a woman at home or will have to live with the fact no woman anywhere wants them.

BillyB, I wonder whether you mean that this statistics is represented on this forum as well?

[Simoni]

To say american woman are the best in the world - well...  in what way that is important to a man seeking a lifelong partnership?

You misquoted me; I didn't say that....reread what I actually said...

American women are among the best women in the world. 

There is  a BIG difference between "BEST IN THE WORLD" and "AMONG THE BEST"

Yes, American women are well educated, beautiful, friendly AND understand American culture.

I just had to make the comment I did because to read on RWD that American women are horrible....time and time again... I disagree.  After all, they also include our daughters and sisters...

[macman]

Then there are women who make little money - single or divorced mothers - that don't even have (or want) custody of their children.  They are IMO selfish and care about the game with single men and their GF's.  Party time with little regard to the responsibility of developing a strong family.  And...  if they meet a man that is willing to "save" them, help get their children, help them be more successful, typically they will not accept this very well...  because this means they will need to stick with just one man, and actually care for the important things.

I have dated MANY AW.  The above is based on my personal experience and observations of these women.

I hope I didn't generalize all AW women in my initial post; however, I am in an environment of successful women and men.  I have personally witnessed divorces in which the woman "wanted" it all - including the kids, house, boat etc - as if she owned them discounting the father's involvment.  I've seen very wealthy men reduced to appartment living - while their former bride's make the rounds of the young men at the gym.  I am watching my best buddy fight with everything he's got to have joint custody of his beautiful twin girls.  Divorce in rampant in the US.  These dogs that abuse women, I don't have words to describe what that does to me. POINT: We live in evil times and a Godless society, what do we expect? 

BillyB, I wonder whether you mean that this statistics is represented on this forum as well?

Lilia: I think not!

MM

[macman]

I just had to make the comment I did because to read on RWD that American women are horrible....time and time again... I disagree.  After all, they also include our daughters and sisters...

AND MOTHERS
Just not our wives. . .  Honestly Simoni - all of these problems and issues with women regardless of country can point to the lack of responsibility, abuse or callous behavior by and from men!

[BillyB]

BillyB, I wonder whether you mean that this statistics is represented on this forum as well?

No Lily. I'm surrounded by some of the finest people in the world here.

I was talking only about the losers in this endeavor and giving an example that although losers write letters and few go to the FSU, most end up with domestic women in the end if they could catch one. I do agree that a higher percentage of losers actually seek a wife in the FSU because their problem finding a woman at home has more to do with themself than the women their dating but they refuse to believe that and swear off American women(Not you Maxxum). It's a good reason for the FSU woman to get to know her man thoroughly before marrying him.