What kind of immigration bill would you support?

[catzenmouse]

Okay Billy, You win. I find the analogies that you put forward to be ridiculous but I'm done bothering with this. Hope your Spanish is good. You'll need it because if that thinking prevails then all I can say it: Viva La United States of Mexico!

Dan C.

 I am very much in favor of a guest worker program with a path towards legal residence. They should just have to do it like all of us have had to do it which is file from their country and not be given a pass just because they have already skimmed around the laws that we are all held accountable for. If this was offered up in a fair manner then I believe that the ones who are honest, which is most of them, would do it. The rest of them would be deported with no chance of ever getting here.

 Nothing from the previous amnesty has been enforced. Nothing has been done to stop the flood into this country. If that cannot be done then amnesty or no amnesty doesn't make a single damn bit of difference because it will just continue as it has.

Ken

[ScottinCrimea]

I'm sorry, BillyB, but I agree with Ken that your analogies are ridiculous. To compare illegal entry and document forgery with stealing candy and little white laws is stretching the arguement quite a bit.

"Scott, think about why there are more Mexican women married to Americans than FSU women. My guess is because they're more accessible at home."  My argument was that the Mexicans have the same legal and illegal means of entering the US.  Apparently you agree with me in contradiction to what you said earlier.

I think this debate will go nowhere because I just don't see your arguments as being sound and tend to rely more on the statistics and my own personal experience, and since I'm off to my daughter's wedding and will be away for a couple of days, you're welcome to the last word.

I am glad that we can agree to disagree on this with no hard feelings.  I already speak fluent Spanish so either way I'm good. 

[Mir]

America has changed over the last 350+ years, but it is still the greatest country in the world. 

Was America a country in 1657 and before that?

[BillyB]

Was America a country in 1657 and before that?

Before Americans they were called American colonists as referenced here of the Boston Tea Party where American colonists committed crimes against the law. Due to that party, the British then created more harsher laws in which people continued to break.  Like prohibition, it didn't work due to the massive amount of people who don't want to obey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party

Just got done celebrating 4th of July which is a day of Independence celebrating freedom. My neighborhood celebrates pretty hard. Lots of illegal fireworks including stuff illegal at the federal level which would be classified as a felony and neighbors taking turns, some drunk, burning rubber, giving a good smoke show in their muscle cars violated the law by negligent and reckless driving and driving under the influence of alcohol. One guy tried to smoke the tires on his motor home to no success. Somebody called the cops and instead of enforcing the law or asking for a bribe as done in the FSU, the cop said to tone it down and drove off.

Ken, don't worry about America, I've listened to the Liberals in my newpaper complain about the Conservatives and the Conservatives on talk radio complain about the Liberals as if both parties is responsible for ruining America. America is stronger than ever and since the economy is strong, the citizens today have more than their parents and their parents parents, who BTW had less illegal immigrants contributing to the economy during their lifespan. Even if all of Mexico immigrates to the US, whites will still outnumber Hispanics, don't believe everything you hear or read. But I agree with you that immigrants need to speak English.

[DKMM]

Billy, next time I'm coming to your place for the 4th!  I have never seen a motorhome burnout... maybe he just didn't hit it hard enough.

btw, I couldn't agree more with what you said.  We are all immigrants here.  those mexicans shouldn't be criminals for coming here just to work some crap job.  we need to help legalize them, but that doesn't mean we need to give them citizenship either.

[jb]

Maybe you guys are immigrants, but I'm not an immigrant. 

[Sohkay]

...America is stronger than ever and since the economy is strong, the citizens today have more than their parents and their parents parents, who BTW had less illegal immigrants contributing to the economy during their lifespan...

Bill,
From yesterday.

CAPITOL REPORT
Consumers are struggling
Analysis: Signs of household stress are all around
By Rex Nutting, MarketWatch
Last Update: 12:08 PM ET Jul 4, 2007


WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- Just when it appeared the U.S. economy would pick up steam after a year-long soft patch, the U.S. consumer is running out of gas.
The signs of stress are all around.
Prices are rising, but incomes and wealth aren't. With most households already overburdened with debt, consumers are being squeezed. There's only one thing to do, even though it goes against every fiber of their being: Cut back on expenses.
Realtors are feeling it, retailers are feeling it, and so are automakers and bankers.
Consider this news from Tuesday:
Sales at retail chain stores continued to weaken in the last week of June. The International Council of Shopping Centers index barely grew week-over-week, while the Redbook index fell to a cyclical low, with same-store sales up just 1.2% compared with a year earlier.

Vehicle sales declined for the sixth straight month in June. In the past six years, sales have been weaker on only two occasions. At the same time, the automakers have stepped up their production, setting up the industry for another round of layoffs and production cutbacks.

Home sales fell again in May. The National Association of Realtors said the number of contracts signed on previously owned homes fell 3.5% to the lowest level since the recession.

More consumers fell behind on their debt payments in the first quarter. The percentage of loans that were 30-days past due rose to the highest level since the recession of 2001.

The news in prior weeks hadn't been much better:
Home prices fell 2.7% in the past year, the biggest decline in 16 years. A 2.7% drop may not seem like much, but considering how hard it is to get homeowners to accept less than they paid for their house, it's startling.

Homebuilders got even more depressed about their industry. The housing market index fell to a 16-year low.

Delinquencies on home mortgages are rising, especially for subprime loans. Unfortunately, delinquencies and foreclosures are also rising for borrowers with good credit who took out adjustable-rate loans. That's unheard of when the unemployment rate is under 5%.

The stock market, after a nice run up from March to May, has been flat over the past seven weeks.

Consumer prices rose 0.5% in May, the fastest monthly increase in 17 months.
Real take-home income (that is, adjusted for inflation) has fallen two months in a row, after a big boost in the first quarter that mostly went to the ultra-rich who received mammoth bonuses and stock options.

For the rest of us, the picture is a well-known story around kitchen tables: The median hourly wage, adjusted for inflation, has fallen four months in a row through May and was up just 1.1% in the past year.
The personal savings rate was negative for the 26th consecutive month in May.

Full story at: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-consumers-struggling-signs-all/story.aspx?guid=%7B1A9E8220%2D96FC%2D4721%2DBB29%2DCD8D5FB26CF6%7D

And this is just about the economy. I don't have the time to educate you about the decline of our global credibility and leadership and the abuse of power by the executive branch and the self-imposed impotence of the legislative branch's non-response to these abuses. Your perception of the situation is wrong.

You can stand there all day and say, "Everything is OK, everything is OK, everything is OK,......" and that won't change a thing.

[TigerPaws]

When is somene no longer an immigrant, my family came to America from England in 1763 so my family has been here for 244 years.

And the "native" Americans came to America around 10,000 years ago so are they still to be considered immigrants?

I am so tired of people saying we are all immigrants, no we are not all immigrants, unless you are FOB (Fresh off the Boat), if you were born in America you are a native American.

TigerPaws

[Mir]

More communist propaganda?

http://www.slate.com/id/2168060/

[Mir]

And this is just about the economy. I don't have the time to educate you about the decline of our global credibility and leadership and the abuse of power by the executive branch and the self-imposed impotence of the legislative branch's non-response to these abuses. Your perception of the situation is wrong.

Defiantly communist propaganda

[jb]

And this is just about the economy. I don't have the time to educate you about the decline of our global credibility and leadership and the abuse of power by the executive branch and the self-imposed impotence of the legislative branch's non-response to these abuses. Your perception of the situation is wrong.

I suppose you think Billary will do a more credible job???

[BC]

I am so tired of people saying we are all immigrants, no we are not all immigrants, unless you are FOB (Fresh off the Boat), if you were born in America you are a native American.

HOW!~

[ecr844]

Even if all of Mexico immigrates to the US, whites will still outnumber Hispanics, don't believe everything you hear or read. But I agree with you that immigrants need to speak English.

"BillyB,"

  It seems the good people at Harvard seem to disagree with you. The following is paraphrased as I don't have the study in front of me but a quick search should rectify that for those who are interested. They have published a study recently which sites FACTS. These facts clearly show that 'whites' <as you call them> are currently a statistical minority and that number will continue to drop. They approximate that due to current brirth rates and illegal immigration, etc... The 'hispanics' <as you call them> will have an approx 80%+ population majority by 2020. So here you are again making statements unbacked up by independently verifiable FACTS....

ECR844

[TigerPaws]

Ah! You mean; “Do not confuse me with facts that contradict my preconceived opinions”.

TigerPaws

[Muj]

I know there are people out there that are anti business, will bite the hand that feeds them, show contempt for those who give them a job, and is angry that America has more millionaires than any other nation. I am pro business, not only do owners benefit from a pro business attitude but consumers benefit through jobs and lower cost of services and goods. If the business does well, employers will pay employees more if they want to keep them from going to their competition.

BillyB,
I am not antibusiness as I work for a business.  I dont agree that I should subsidize some businesses with my taxes and therby provide profits to them.  I believe everyone should pay their own way.
The business I work for competes directly worldwide with other businesses.  No taxpayer subsidies or cry babies for governemnt loans either.  We sell to Asia, Europe, NA.

[2tallbill]

All these arguments must be put aside for a moment.

First my rational idea's

UNTIL we realize that virtually NONE of the current laws are being enforced with any kind
of consistency that no solutions that anybody is promoting will have a chance.

I think we can all agree that the current laws are not being enforced.
I also don't think that even Billy is saying that we should not have any laws regarding immigration at all.

So unless we demand that the current laws are enforced then there is no purpose to draft other laws to fix the existing
problems.

Next my cRaZy half baked radical idea.

Set up HUGE Military bases in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Korea and Kuwait and anywhere else they are needed. Draft any and all illegal aliens that are found. Feed them, Train them, clothe them, and arm them and use them on the war on terror. If they are incapable of direct fighting or of support roles (cooking, driving trucks, supplies etc) then they are to be detained for one year of confinement in a desert prison camp then deported. After four years of military service they get full amnesty complete US citizenship, voting rights, GI bill everything (if they want it). Then we use more and more of our troops to guard our borders.

Would it work? You know it would. Would it cost a zillion dollars? Yes of course, but so is ignoring either the illegal immigrant issue or the war on terror. In the end the stream of illegal immigrants would diminish nearly to nothing. Then we could increase legal immigration to suit our needs. 

Take care,

Bill

[William3rd]

The Roman solution-

MIght work, but make enlistment in the army for ten years a requirement for illegals present here, at which time they will attain American citizenship.

In the meantime, enforce the 1986 provisions and jail those employers who are profiting from the use of undocumented workers.

[Jet]

Out of curiosity, if someday guns and alcohol is again outlawed, how many of you would give up your guns, quit drinking and be a good example for the illegal immigrants you criticize?  Drinking alcohol or not, owning a gun or not and coming into the country illegally or legally isn't about good and evil. Helping your fellow man or murdering someone is.

No problem! I haven't owned a gun in 10+ years nor felt the need to. Alcohol, I could take or leave at the drop of a hat.
Now that that's out of the way, and you're so excited about helping your fellow man,
How quickly are you ready to give up your sweethearts place in line at USCIS so that 12 million illegals can cut in front? How many years are you willing to put your hopes and dreams on hold?

Before you say "that'll never happen" consider the fact that it DOES, often. When I sent my I-129f to TSC back in '02, my petition literally sat on a shelf collecting dust for 6 months because Congress demanded that Nicaraguan TPS (temporary protected status) cases take priority over everything else - so everything else sat untouched. Now, with the promise of 12 million new taxpayers "on the books" vs your K-1/K-3 petition, who's paperwork is going to take precedence?

[2tallbill]

The Roman solution-

MIght work, but make enlistment in the army for ten years a requirement for illegals present here, at which time they will attain American citizenship.

In the meantime, enforce the 1986 provisions and jail those employers who are profiting from the use of undocumented workers.

Williamtrey, I would agree with the ten year solution during times of peace, but I think 4 years in time of war would be reasonable.

[2tallbill]

 Now, with the promise of 12 million new taxpayers "on the books" vs your K-1/K-3 petition, who's paperwork is going to take precedence?

Excellent point!

Bill

[William3rd]

Under this proposal, we could keep that ol' surge going for years. . .

[wxman]

"BillyB,"

  It seems the good people at Harvard seem to disagree with you. The following is paraphrased as I don't have the study in front of me but a quick search should rectify that for those who are interested. They have published a study recently which sites FACTS. These facts clearly show that 'whites' <as you call them> are currently a statistical minority and that number will continue to drop. They approximate that due to current brirth rates and illegal immigration, etc... The 'hispanics' <as you call them> will have an approx 80%+ population majority by 2020. So here you are again making statements unbacked up by independently verifiable FACTS....

ECR844

I think you might mean 2120, not 2020. The population of the US will not be 80% hispanic is 13 years. The "white" population is not expected to drop below 50% until 2060. Whites made up 70% of the population in 2000.

http://www.cdc.gov/omhd/Populations/White.htm

[ecr844]

Thank you for the correction "Wxman," that's exactly why I stated I was parpahrasing form memory. Still the numbers are scary. Do any of you really think in that situation that you'll qualify for 'equal opportunity'?

[BillyB]

I don't have the time to educate you about the decline of our global credibility and leadership and the abuse of power by the executive branch and the self-imposed impotence of the legislative branch's non-response to these abuses. Your perception of the situation is wrong.

Why stop educating? You tried to educate everyone here saying Bush was responsible for destroying the World Trade Center on 9/11.

It seems the good people at Harvard seem to disagree with you. The following is paraphrased as I don't have the study in front of me but a quick search should rectify that for those who are interested. They have published a study recently which sites FACTS. These facts clearly show that 'whites' <as you call them> are currently a statistical minority and that number will continue to drop. They approximate that due to current brirth rates and illegal immigration, etc... The 'hispanics' <as you call them> will have an approx 80%+ population majority by 2020. So here you are again making statements unbacked up by independently verifiable FACTS....

wxman showed you had your FACTS wrong. America has 300,000,000 people and just under 70% are white, that makes around 200,000,000 whites in America and currently there are 42,000,000 hispanics in America. As I said before if you let all of Mexico in, there will be less Hispanics than white since there is 108,000,000 Mexicans in Mexico.

What your Harvard boys aren't telling you is that the rate of immigration will not sustain. This is where you need to use your brain and quit relying on the media for info. I remember the fast and alarming rate of Taiwan's, Japan's, Germany's and now China's economic growth. Many experts predicted that with the rate of growth, those countries will surpass the USA. But there is a limit to everything. Think real hard on why immigration rates from Mexico will naturally decline. I remember a report a while back that said blacks are the fastest growing minority group since they are having babies at a high rate and could someday surpass whites in numbers. Now, not true.

Draft any and all illegal aliens that are found

Bill, there are already many Hispanics serving the in military at a higher ratio percentage wise than whites. Maybe they're patriotic, maybe they're there for a job, maybe they want to be a US citizen.

How quickly are you ready to give up your sweethearts place in line at USCIS so that 12 million illegals can cut in front? How many years are you willing to put your hopes and dreams on hold?

I'd be majorly upset. But I always believed the good of many outweigh the good of a few which include the individual such as myself. I joined the military during the first gulf war to be patriotic and liberate the Kuwaitis. I am not a selfish person and have proven to help my fellow man even if it would cost me my life. Also a bigger wait for the k-1 to come through will test me and my fiancee on how much we care about each other.

Thank you for the correction "Wxman," that's exactly why I stated I was parpahrasing form memory. Still the numbers are scary. Do any of you really think in that situation that you'll qualify for 'equal opportunity'?

I don't think I'll qualify for equal opportunity if Hispanics are the majority, I'd be dead by then if it ever happens. But why would you think Hispanics could not be fair to other ethnic groups? Because you yourself would not be fair to them?

[ecr844]

wxman showed you had your FACTS wrong. America has 300,000,000 people and just under 70% are white, that makes around 200,000,000 whites in America and currently there are 42,000,000 hispanics in America. As I said before if you let all of Mexico in, there will be less Hispanics than white since there is 108,000,000 Mexicans in Mexico.

Actually he quoted a different source other than the study which I hhad cited. Incidentally, it's telling you left out the 'quote' and fact that I stood correct as well as where I stated I was paraphrasing from memory. More smoke and mirrors to disguise the your lack of facts and re-direct attention elsewhere. Nothing personal, (We each have a right to our opinions) but I've yet to see a single piece of verifiable fact and or source material from you other than your own words.... ??? ??? ???

What your Harvard boys aren't telling you is that the rate of immigration will not sustain. This is where you need to use your brain and quit relying on the media for info. I remember the fast and alarming rate of Taiwan's, Japan's, Germany's and now China's economic growth. Many experts predicted that with the rate of growth, those countries will surpass the USA. But there is a limit to everything. Think real hard on why immigration rates from Mexico will naturally decline. I remember a report a while back that said blacks are the fastest growing minority group since they are having babies at a high rate and could someday surpass whites in numbers. Now, not true.

You hope...

I don't think I'll qualify for equal opportunity if Hispanics are the majority, I'd be dead by then if it ever happens. But why would you think Hispanics could not be fair to other ethnic groups? Because you yourself would not be fair to them?

Well in fact I do as they have NO EQUAL OPPORTUNITY in Central and or South America. As a matter of fact it is quite the opposite. So yes, I can say with some degree of certainty that since it doesn't nor has it existed to date. That there will be a chance of it happening anytime in the future. By the way, why are you attempting to paint me as a bigot and a racist? Would it be because like most who 'lose' in these types of discussions when faced with facts and evidence you need to sink lower and try to attack someone personally? Do you really believe that this will distract the group from your inadequacy and inability to hold up your stated position? It's ok if your intellectually impotent, just be man enough to admit it ..