What kind of immigration bill would you support?

[ecr844]

ECR,

  Your accounts of Billy's attacks are very implied, and yes, you probably are being passive-aggressive.  I am certain they count in your mind as attacks.  They barely make the grade in mine. 
Dan C. 

My issue was less with the 'attacks' on his part. They were merely a 'distraction tacic. My 'issue,' per se was that he made a statement purporting I had something. It was untrue and I refuted it. Period. Your attemot at being changing the context above and thus yourself being 'passive-aggressive' was nearly clever. 

Billy's opinion would be stronger if he had some specific points of evidence.  However, this is a subject where our opinions starts with what we believe inside, and both sides will amass what ever facts they can find to support their positions.  I'm sure myself or Billy can find our own facts to rebut your facts then we will go round-and-round with our dueling facts to no end.   

  Its late, I'll read the link you provided later.  See if you can come up with the Harvard study one too. 

  In the end this is an agree to disagree subject, and that is where I am content to leave it.

I agree with your last line and I'm sure thats where it will end up like many other threads here. I even stated something approximating that earlier in the thread. At the end of the day my point was have people back up their opinions with a solid fact base. Don't spill propaganda on one side or another and expect the board to swallow the rationale of 'that's the way it is 'cuz I said so' to fly. That was my point.
 

[Jet]

Like the harsher laws created by the British due to the Boston Tea Party and prohibition, when large amounts of people don't obey, it's silly and expensive for the government to enforce properly and put massive people in jail.

SWEET! So if we all quit paying taxes at the same time the IRS will just look the other way because it's too "silly and expensive" to go after all of us?

Seriously, this administration in particular has proven beyond reasonable doubt that if there is something they *want* to do, they'll find a way to make it happen, no matter how silly and expensive it is.

What do you think is better? Taking a hard line stance and refusing to give medical attention to an illegal immigrant mother who is crying because her baby is about to die if the child doesn't receive $20 worth of medicine or giving up a few tax dollars to do the humane thing?
What would your wife say if she knew you're a man who'd turn away help for a child?

Ever listen to those announcements before the plane takes off?
"In case of emergency place the facemask over your own face first and THEN help your child secure theirs"
The idea is simple - if you become incapacitated, you can't help anyone else. When hospitals become so financially overburdened that they must close their doors, then they can't even help the paying customers. So, what do you think is better, turning away some people who are here illegally and have no means or intention to pay for the services they're asking to receive, or just not having a hospital available at all?




FWIW although I do not agree with Billy's stance on the issue, I suspect that Washington does and in the end amnesty will come to pass no matter how much the general populous doth protest. Pragmatism wins out over ideology more often than not.

[BradSTL]

I suspect that Washington does and in the end amnesty will come to pass no matter how much the general populous doth protest. Pragmatism wins out over ideology more often than not.

Well analyzed Jet!    And this is probably the end-game for the issue... passage of someone bill loaded with vague language (loopholes) the judicial branch can interpret liberally in immigration cases.

But the best point was made earlier in his post

So, what do you think is better, turning away some people who are here illegally and have no means or intention to pay for the services they're asking to receive, or just not having a hospital available at all?

And once this amnesty deal is accepted... THERE WILL BE A CLAUSE extending some sort of benefit for health care... and THERE WILL BE A CLAUSE allowing hospitals to seek reimbursement for illegal alien caseloads they have handled for a specified prior period (1-2 years?) from medicare, etc., (who knows?)... and THERE WILL BE A CLAUSE that Congress will appropriate funds for such care... and Congress will UNDERFUND the whole scheme--- therefore, creating a crisis it intends to avoid--- by not clarifying what hospitals can receive in reimbursement for the type or category of health care they have/will provide and NOT PROVIDING ENOUGH MONEY FOR IT ALL!

The whole thing is going to bite the average American in the butt anyway you look at it--- its only an issue of HOW LONG we can delay paying the bills for all this.  (The rest of my life would be just dandy--- if that stunt can be pulled)

[Sohkay]

...Pragmatism wins out over ideology more often than not.

Brad,
Think about what you've written.

Just think about history...ideology has been the powerful and driving force. Of course, we must be pragmatic in order to survive, but in matters of government, pragmatism frequently takes a back seat to ideology. You want some examples?

IMBRA
Electric Utility Deregulation
Terri Schiavo
Iraq
Iran
Restricting grain exports in Ukraine
Communism
Etc.,
etc.,
etc.

[BillyB]

SWEET! So if we all quit paying taxes at the same time the IRS will just look the other way because it's too "silly and expensive" to go after all of us?

Yes, it would not make sense for the government to put all people in jail for any reason. The government would find other ways of collecting taxes such as increasing taxes on the goods you buy. I doubt we'll stop buying food.

Ever listen to those announcements before the plane takes off?
"In case of emergency place the facemask over your own face first and THEN help your child secure theirs"
The idea is simple - if you become incapacitated, you can't help anyone else. When hospitals become so financially overburdened that they must close their doors, then they can't even help the paying customers. So, what do you think is better, turning away some people who are here illegally and have no means or intention to pay for the services they're asking to receive, or just not having a hospital available at all?

If this economy is considered incapacitated, then I would rethink my stance on the issue at hand. As far as hospitals closing and no sign of the trend reversing because of illegals, I don't buy the argument. As population increases, so does the number of hospitals.

I read a Liberal newspaper that mentions, often if a Republican is currently President, jobs in this country have been lost but I know jobs are created when the unemployment stays low or even moves lower. Common sense.

The paper once mention the military isn't meeting it's recruitment goals of getting volunteers to sign up and the government may be thinking of bringing back the draft. One or a few months of not meeting goals get into front page headlines but for the past year and a half or more, no news. Why? the military has met or exceeded goals and no draft in sight.


 I simply don't believe everything I read and see when it comes to things that are supposed to shock me. Not pertaining to reviving the draft, not global warming, not lost of jobs, not the economy is tanking, not hospitals are disappearing, and not illegal immigrants are a burden more than they help.

Thanks to links provided by erc844, here is what the heritage foundation says our government wants, 66 milion immigrants over the next 20 years to help with our economy. The illegals are a drop in the bucket to what they estimate is needed.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1076.cfm

erc844, you seem to have lost your composure based on your last few posts. I am the underdog here, most everyone is on your side. There are guys here that presented arguments against amnesty better than you and they didn't need the references to prove it to me. This thread was about to die peacefully and I knew if I voice my thoughts contrary to the beliefs of the overwhelming majority which include, liberals and conservatives, I would be in for an uphill battle that could add pages to this thread. Though I have not changed many minds because most of us are set in our ways, maybe some of you will have a better understanding on why our government needs more people to keep this economy running and the cheapest, most sensible way to do it with the circumstances before us. No hard feelings, I'm enjoying the debate.

[Muj]

Billy,

Reading the link only provides more reason for defeat of the amnesty bill.  You offer no economic reason for the US taxpayer to house more immigrants other than large profits to a few.  Obviously the government realized that large inflows of immigrants by the 1920's was not good for the US so the laws were changed to the present status.

[ScottinCrimea]

As far as hospitals closing and no sign of the trend reversing because of illegals, I don't buy the argument. As population increases, so does the number of hospitals.

 I simply don't believe everything I read and see when it comes to things that are supposed to shock me. Not pertaining to reviving the draft, not global warming, not lost of jobs, not the economy is tanking, not hospitals are disappearing, and not illegal immigrants are a burden more than they help.

BillyB, It's not only that you don't believe everything you read, you don't believe ANYTHING you read that contradicts your views.  Numerous studies come to the same conclusions but you turn a deaf ear because it doesn't fit with your cemented ideas.  I have seen first hand the hospital closure issue.  Nationwide 736 closed between 1987 and 2000, 50 of these in California, primarily in the urban and agricultural areas where the highest percentage of illegals live.  Hospitals nationwide reported $21 billion in uncompensated care in 2002 alone.  Studies show that 43% of uninsured patients were illegal aliens, so if we take 43% of $21 billion, we have over $9 billion a year in health costs for illegals.  That doesn't include uncompensated care in government or private clinics or the costs incurred by individual physicians' offices, which are estimated at $12,300 a year per physician and $138,000 per year for ER physicians.  Just for what they cost us in healthcare alone in one year alone we could pay to have a very nice fence built on our southern border.

And we haven't even touched the other areas where they cost us. Illegal aliens are a source of strain on the welfare system, the criminal justice system, and the education system.

Education:  $7.4 billion nationwide is spent to educate the children of illegals, with $2.2 billion in California alone.  Even with that, nearly half of the Hispanics in the US have not completed high school. The cost per year to educate each child of an illegal is $5,000.  You think they pay enough in taxes to cover that?  No, the rest of us do. In California, the $2.2 billion spent on the education of the children of illegal immigrants for one year could:
Pay the salaries of 41, 764 teachers, or 14 percent of California's teachers.
Pay for California's class sizes to remain capped at 20 students for a year, with $300 million to spare.
Buy books, computers, and other instructional equipment for 346, 689 classrooms, 79 percent of all classrooms in California.
Fully fund California 's free lunch program for almost two years.

Crime and law enforcement:  Nearly 25% of all prisoners in California prisons are from Mexico, Begging the question, why aren't they deported? Which would only beg the response, if they are deported, how can you stop them from coming back?  The estimated cost for this nationwide is $5.8 billion annually.
.
And while the costs are amplified, tax collection from illegal aliens is minuscule:
"The Los Angeles Times reports that 950,000 illegals live in the five counties comprising the greater Los Angeles area.
Their economic activity is mostly underground, which means the employers pay low cash wages, no overtime,
no benefits and no taxes. ... John Chiang of the State Board of Equalization, California's tax oversight agency,
estimates that the state loses $7 billion a year in unpaid taxes because of the underground sector."
And while the tax collections are minuscule, the payments to immigrant groups overall is large:
"The U.S. Census Bureau reports that 30.6 percent of Hispanics receive means-tested government benefits
compared to 9 percent of whites."

As far as our welfare system, check this out:

'The immigrants we admit are much poorer than the native population and are increasing the size of our impoverished population. As a result, the share of immigrant households below the poverty line (18 percent) is much higher than the share of native households that are poor (11 percent)—nearly twice as high. And immigrant households are more likely to participate in practically every one of the major means-tested programs. Immigrant use of welfare programs (21 percent) is 43 percent higher than non-immigrants’ use (15 percent).

Each year, state governments spend an estimated $11 billion to $22 billion to provide welfare to immigrants."

So if we add up just these ways in which illegal immigration costs us, it comes to $33-44 billion a year.

Estimates have put the cost of immigration at more than $60 billion in 2000 alone. In response to those who maintain immigrants are paying their share of taxes, it should be noted this mammoth figure represents costs after immigrants' tax contributions are factored in.

We could pay for an awful lot of enforcement and a nice fence for this amount, and after the fence is built and the border secured, maybe we could spend some of this money on benefits for our own people, like improving the schools, increased funding for healthcare, maybe even, God forbid, a tax cut.



Immigrants come to benefit themselves and not necessarily our country's benefit.

Those that immigrate illegally harm our country, but ignore the laws because it benefits them.  We are paying billions of dollars every year to allow people with no regard for the law to come and live here.  And then to reward them for this?  It sends a terrible message to our people and to the world and doesn't promote the kind of legal immigrant that we want in our communities.

BillyB, step out of your comfy subdivision and spend some time in those areas where there are high numbers of illegal immigrants.  Then ask yourself if that is what you want America to become, because little by little, that's just what is happening.

[BillyB]

BillyB, It's not only that you don't believe everything you read, you don't believe ANYTHING you read that contradicts your views. 

I don't believe the what I read in the way the argument is presented. I will believe you and will not ask you to find references to the 736 hospitals closing between 1987-2000. But I want you to find me references on how many opened. One minute you are telling me hospitals are closing and nobody could utilize their services in the areas immigrants dominate, the next minute you're telling me immigrants continue to use hospitals costing the American taxpayer. How is this possible when the hospitals they once used are closed for business? Anytime you read the numbers of jobs lost in this country, ask how many were gained and you won't feel so bad. Congress thinks we need tens of millions of immigrants to fill the job openings coming up. They must feel there's a bright future ahead for America no matter what gloom and doom is spoken of against each party before elections.

As far as education goes, it's always better to educate the people in your nation than not. As erc844's links mention, uneducated and high school dropout immigrants commit more crime and have babies out of wedlock. The same goes for any ethnic group. Paying for education does more good than harm.

So if we add up just these ways in which illegal immigration costs us, it comes to $33-44 billion a year.

So that's costing roughly $100-$150 per American taxpayer per year. Businesses contribute a huge amount of tax so the actual burden to citizens is even less. Scott, again, you are only estimating expenses but not calculating the benefits. Besides savings in your pocket when you buy food,  illegal immigrants pay taxes when they purchase goods. If the illegal immigrant makes a miserable $1000 a month, sends $100 a month back home, and pays a small rent of $300 for his shack, that leaves him with $600 a month to buy goods. Tax rate  on goods means he contributes about $50 a month to government or $600 a year which is more than what he's costing us. Also many illegal immigrants, though fake SS#, are contributing to the SS fund. Make the illegal immigrant legal, then you will see more contributions.

I think you guys know many people out there complain about how expensive the war on terror is. I think this is a justifiable cost and the hunt for terrorists necessary. Just think how much the cost will be to hunt down illegals?

[jb]

BillyB,

Here an interesting link for you to ponder.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus06.pdf#010

I think you'll have to agree that if 95.7% of all live births to Hispanic women between the ages of 15 and 44 y.o. were without the benefit of marriage, (up through 2004), there is something a little wrong with the picture.

[BillyB]

BillyB,

Here an interesting link for you to ponder.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus06.pdf#010

I think you'll have to agree that if 95.7% of all live births to Hispanic women between the ages of 15 and 44 y.o. were without the benefit of marriage, (up through 2004), there is something a little wrong with the picture.

Actually that stat is stating there are 95.7 births for every 1000 unmarried hispanic women. Blacks once had those numbers in the 70's but it has declined. So will the Hispanics.

Marriage is also on the decline with all ethnic groups and that is not a good thing IMO.

Married or unmarried, I will admit Hispanics are having more children then other ethnic groups. But consider this as DKMM pointed out from the CIA FActbook, Mexico's fertility rate is slightly higher than America's. Other Latin countries are slightly higher and some lower such as Cuba's. These people, in their own nations, do not want to have a lot of children as perceived here in the States. A big reason why it seems Hispanics are having kids at an alarming rate(high fertility) here is because they are young. At ERC844's link the median age for Hispanics is 27.2 years old while the median age for whites is 40.3 years old. So per 1000 people, they will naturally be producing more kids because they are nearer to the prime child bearing years. But as the Hispanic population gets older, the numbers will come back down to earth. But new waves of young immigrants will always keep the numbers higher than whites.

Also many of them live in poorer sections of society and naturally, kids are born there at a higher rate. Lack of education also contributes to high birth rates.

BillyB, step out of your comfy subdivision and spend some time in those areas where there are high numbers of illegal immigrants.  Then ask yourself if that is what you want America to become, because little by little, that's just what is happening.

Besides working on the farm in Washington State in the mid eighties, I lived there. The farmer provided free shacks for people who worked his farm. I was surrounded by Mexicans and a few Asians. I was the whitest guy there being 50% Caucasian. I worked beside them and played soccer after work with them. I have no idea if they were legal or illegal.

You mention little by little America is becoming that. I don't think so, the shacks remain on the farm and don't seem to be spreading.

[catzenmouse]

Let's just take a simple look at enforcement.

As it is now many illegals are committing crimes that should (and are supposed to) get them deported. So far, they are not as the agencies still do not cooperate well enough to get the information to everyone who needs it. We cannot even come close to doing that as it stands now. I just saw a lovely piece about Jose Villa who is an illegal alien. He has been arrested 11 times and in jail for several of them. Two of them were for assault. He was just released and raped a 13 or 14 year old girl. Just the kind of person we want to give amnesty to isn't it?

How can this country even consider amnesty if they cannot even get rid of multiple conviction illegal alien felons? Does anyone in power have a clue? I seriously doubt it. Any blanket amnesty, no matter that the majority would be fine upstanding citizens, without fixing the existing problem is beyond ludicrous and would only go to show that our government continues to care more about what they are going to get from some lobbyist than about what is actually good for the country.

I don't give a rat's ass what the numbers say. Fix the problem that we have now! Enforce the laws that we have now! Grows a pair as a country for a change. These are the same people who consider IMBRA a good thing. They are not to be trusted in their motives.

FWIW,
 Ken

[ecr844]

Here are some links to the hospital statistics.

http://www.uannurse.org/research/pdfs/industry.pdf
http://www.aha.org/aha/resource_center/fastfacts/fast_facts_US_hospitals.html

Hospital Statistics by State 

Statistics for non-federal, short-term, acute care hospitals are summarized by state.
Data are based on each hospital's most recent Medicare cost report / Definitions.
Click on a state to see individual hospital statistics.
State Number  Hospitals Staffed Beds Total Discharges Patient Days Gross Patient Revenue ($000)
AK - Alaska 13 995 35,726 221,740 $1,664,068
AL - Alabama 99 15,836 646,023 3,509,422 $25,969,667
AR - Arkansas 53 7,860 323,695 1,682,742 $10,590,212
AZ - Arizona 67 11,425 664,252 2,848,009 $24,243,967
CA - California 359 76,492 3,199,090 18,811,100 $187,359,703
CO - Colorado 48 8,014 378,713 1,897,027 $18,231,703
CT - Connecticut 33 8,284 378,566 2,394,375 $14,882,589
DC - Washington D.C. 7 2,911 123,087 831,813 $5,526,086
DE - Delaware 6 2,070 96,847 585,381 $2,626,134
FL - Florida 187 53,371 2,292,280 12,279,077 $105,045,181
GA - Georgia 108 22,647 883,983 5,871,826 $34,712,689
GU - Guam 1 166 10,787 51,298 $103,046
HI - Hawaii 14 2,806 94,965 767,993 $3,899,305
IA - Iowa 34 7,440 276,533 1,619,219 $9,158,757
ID - Idaho 18 2,431 108,722 507,262 $3,172,779
IL - Illinois 138 32,458 1,428,473 7,825,391 $60,654,776
IN - Indiana 89 17,261 683,451 3,759,783 $25,025,992
KS - Kansas 55 6,649 285,762 1,443,225 $11,197,265
KY - Kentucky 69 13,904 560,731 3,121,434 $19,613,681
LA - Louisiana 108 15,658 559,530 3,245,073 $20,609,885
MA - Massachusetts 72 15,447 756,643 4,171,599 $32,543,202
MD - Maryland 48 11,525 718,487 3,536,976 $12,507,003
ME - Maine 21 3,150 126,002 744,676 $4,545,955
MI - Michigan 106 23,682 1,080,290 5,801,693 $43,623,718
MN - Minnesota 60 11,161 517,223 2,816,943 $18,894,204
MO - Missouri 83 18,348 723,745 4,095,187 $29,025,114
MS - Mississippi 76 11,540 373,808 2,346,404 $13,671,787
MT - Montana 16 2,425 84,022 580,688 $2,682,780
NC - North Carolina 96 23,149 945,457 5,894,991 $30,909,399
ND - North Dakota 14 2,250 65,841 535,194 $2,416,585
NE - Nebraska 23 4,578 173,494 1,094,625 $7,188,223
NH - New Hampshire 13 2,194 97,749 521,874 $4,649,189
NJ - New Jersey 76 22,138 1,043,574 6,034,344 $60,791,467
NM - New Mexico 36 3,736 164,362 807,858 $6,499,534
NV - Nevada 24 4,618 260,182 1,290,672 $11,968,741
NY - New York 192 62,735 2,175,301 18,367,029 $91,267,283
OH - Ohio 142 30,670 1,357,476 7,373,361 $56,593,375
OK - Oklahoma 93 10,614 441,323 2,352,266 $14,957,128
OR - Oregon 32 5,591 305,177 1,390,744 $10,445,639
PA - Pennsylvania 168 38,451 1,709,611 9,818,959 $96,509,783
PR - Puerto Rico 50 7,573 374,512 2,136,983 $3,295,938
RI - Rhode Island 11 2,566 129,882 714,801 $5,082,759
SC - South Carolina 56 11,484 507,585 3,059,807 $21,280,225
SD - South Dakota 25 2,632 80,598 637,846 $2,792,644
TN - Tennessee 118 20,351 829,095 4,537,503 $30,891,812
TX - Texas 334 54,112 2,517,973 12,359,804 $101,606,375
UT - Utah 35 4,135 194,141 972,892 $5,720,897
VA - Virginia 84 19,368 735,101 4,856,963 $28,562,206
VT - Vermont 8 960 41,643 218,872 $1,821,828
WA - Washington 54 9,349 498,633 2,249,934 $20,002,385
WI - Wisconsin 70 11,879 515,874 2,659,780 $20,008,194
WV - West Virginia 39 6,485 244,101 1,456,729 $7,322,058
WY - Wyoming 12 1,267 41,138 243,901 $1,153,126
Totals 3,793 768,841 32,861,259 188,955,088 $1,385,518,040
 

[Jet]

I think you guys know many people out there complain about how expensive the war on terror is. I think this is a justifiable cost and the hunt for terrorists necessary. Just think how much the cost will be to hunt down illegals?

Billy, you may call me a nut job, but I said it before and I'll say it again...
If it meant restoration of all we've been stripped of recently in the name of :National Security", I'd gladly take my chances with the terrorists out on the street. Hunting terrorists is one thing, but current policy is breeding them.

[BillyB]

erc844, those hospital stats aren't doing anything for me. I did poke around those sites you submitted and didn't notice any complaints about hospitals closing. I did see complaints that they need more government money in the name of health care and they complain the current immigration bill that was voted down would not let enough immigrants into the country to become nurses. Seems strange to me the Heritage foundation estimates the immigration bill will let in even more people freely yet the health care industry thinks it will hamper their work force by limiting the amount of foreign nurses into the country. The health care industry currently accepts 12,000-15,000 nurses from foriegn countries every year. They say unless action is taken, they will be 800,000 nurses short in the year 2020. I don't know where they'd place all those nurses if they had them since some claim hospitals are closing?

 Jet, you're an alright guy. Most everybody here is and and as evident in this debate, they want what's best for the country. We have different ideas on how to get there and I hold no ill will towards anybody for their views.

[Dan C.]

Ken,

  The ICE is doing things to catch those who are fugitives.  The Seattle Times ran an article about it.  You can read it at:

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=iceraid03m&date=20070703&query=immigration

  The ICE is trying to round up 600,000 fugitives some who have been on the lam for many years.  As one of the ICE agents says:

"Our role is to enforce the court's orders and that's what we're doing. And we don't apologize for it."

  Yet the numbers are against them.  The magnitude of the problem is overwhelming.  For example, we'd have to catch and deport about 58,000 people a week over the next 4 years to remove all 12 million estimated illegal immigrants, assuming no more came across the border.  The ICE does not have enough agents or funding to do so and I doubt that will change to a significant degree.

Dan C.

[DKMM]

When you study economics you learn that low cost inputs to an economy increase GDP and raise the standard of living in an economy.  The competition that immigrants bring in increases productivity.  While not so true in a high unemployment environment, we live in a tight labor market so the economic impact of immigrants is even more positive.

It would cost us many billions off our GDP if we tossed out the illegals.  It would be economic catastrophe and fortunately the powers that be understand this and won't subject our nation to such a ridiculous notion as kicking out the illegals.

[Bruno]

Seems strange to me the Heritage foundation estimates the immigration bill will let in even more people freely yet the health care industry thinks it will hamper their work force by limiting the amount of foreign nurses into the country. The health care industry currently accepts 12,000-15,000 nurses from foriegn countries every year. They say unless action is taken, they will be 800,000 nurses short in the year 2020. I don't know where they'd place all those nurses if they had them since some claim hospitals are closing?

and previously, you wrote :

I think you guys know many people out there complain about how expensive the war on terror is. I think this is a justifiable cost and the hunt for terrorists necessary. Just think how much the cost will be to hunt down illegals?

Hmmm.... recent event have show that both can be linked.... i mean terrorism and immigration ( illegal or not )...

Since UK is far from US, maybe nobody here have knowledge of the last terrorism attack/attempt in UK... all the people arrested are doctor.... foreign doctor... now, UK goverment say that they will make a better background check on the legal immigration...

My point is : immigration is needed for economic reason... Are we citizen, ready to accept a immigration ( illegal or not ) who is not controlled for the benefice of some industry.... and where between these immigrant, some potential terrorist exist...

If i good remember, for a K1, goverment make a background check on your RW... let apply these background check to everybody who immigrate to US... illegal have not pass these background check, they are a potential danger for US citizen... maybe 1 on 1.000.000 is terrorist... but only one terrorist can kill a lot of people... what have more value : money or life ?

Here in Belgium, some year ago, we have make a amnesty for illegal... great, around 75000 illegal was given paper... result was a big publicity for Belgium and the double amount of illegal the year after... now, these new illegals manifest in the street asking for a new regularisation ( amnesty )... foreign who don't respect our laws and procedure on immigration have nothing to make in my country... they are criminals !!!

[BC]

I took a look at CIA factbook statistics for what they are worth.. doing some comparison between USA and Mexico, I found that:

Birthrate US 14/1000, MX 20/1000
Median age US 35, MX 25 (a HUGE gap and growing..)
Workforce as a % of population, US 50%, MX 28% (kinda makes sense with all those kids)

It's quite obvious that there are simply not enough young folk in the US to meet the demand for low paid (but necessary) jobs.  The ageing population exacerbates the problem.

The successful working population in the US simply cannot find legal workers to clean house, mow lawns, serve food, construct/maintain their homes, keep their transportation running, care for their health needs, and then provide some comfort in their final days.

I used to do tune-ups and change oil myself when I was 25..  at 35 well....

At 35 I was working my butt off at a career and monetary peak..  overextended myself (maintenance wise) with a relatively large home/property resulting with me at 47 still working and depending on a gardener to do the tough stuff and a house-cleaner a couple hours a week to do floors n windows.  I manage to take care of the pool... barely.

Even though I live in Europe, I'd be in much the same shape in the US..  probably pretty typical except that my wife would probably be working instead to pay property taxes (500 bucks a year here) and we'd need someone to take care of the kids. The neighborhood kids would more interested in cars, girls and school so they can hop right into big money jobs than my lawn..

If an illegal walked up the doorstep and offered services for a price that I could afford... well... damn right I'd do it!.. after all what choice do I have?

As we age and progress in our jobs, we depend more and more on younger folks to pick up the slack..  It's quite normal in today's world.

Yeah right..  make that border watertight, throw those younger folks willing to work out and bar them from ever coming back...

I don't think it's gonna work that way..

[jb]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the Mexican economy, after all,,, that's why they come to the US.

There are 100,000,000 Mexicans, 99,000,000 of them live so far below anything we would call a livable wage it's easy to see the lure of the US border.  For example, did you know that Microsoft's annual bottom line is 5 times the GDP of Mexico?  It's not hard to figure out if you have the right perspective.

There are approximately 190 countries on the planet earth, only about 20 have a population base where greater than 50% of the people  live above poverty levels.  This is the primary reason the immigration flow is always north and west, never south and east.  Perhaps as the US declines in the 21st century and India and China arise, the poor Mexican will figure out how to migrate there instead of here.

[BradSTL]

Brad,
Think about what you've written. . . but in matters of government, pragmatism frequently takes a back seat to ideology.

In *some* instances... but remember... Congress is (and will forever be) a critter of compromise.  Regarding IMBRA, Congress can "ordain" a great many things, but the enforceability of their acts is a different question altogether.

Iran and Iraq are interesting situations, aren't they?   Arguments over the practicality vs. the ideological necessity of forceful interventions are most illuminating.

What say you ,Sohkay, about these 2 middle eastern states?

[BradSTL]

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned is the Mexican economy, after all,,, that's why they come to the US.

And Mexico's central bank (and government) is hopelessly hooked by the all the remittances sent home by the illegals!    The U-S is a wonderful source of lots of liquidity each month.  You agree, jb?

[BC]

And Mexico's central bank (and government) is hopelessly hooked by the all the remittances sent home by the illegals!    The U-S is a wonderful source of lots of liquidity each month.  You agree, jb?

Read somewhere this morning that it's the second largest 'industry'... right behind petro.

[jb]

You agree, jb?

Yes, I agree.  I read somewhere that over 13 billion USD excaped in 2003 alone, sent south of the border by illegal workers.  This number grows every year.

Ah haaaa,,, here it is:
http://www.dallasfed.org/research/busfront/bus0401.html

[ScottinCrimea]

BillyB, in answer to your question, for the years I cited, the net loss of hospitals in California was 30, however, many of the new hospitals opted not to have an ER because they would lose too much money on unreimbursed care.  So where do they go when the nearest hospital closes? To the next nearest one.  For example, when a hospital I worked at, Lindsay District Hospital closed, the next nearest hospital was in Porterville, 15 miles to the south.  That means that in an emergency where time is critical, those extra 15 minutes of driving can mean the difference between life and death.  The other problem is that it produces a domino effect, because now the hospital in Porterville is seeing all of those non-paying patients and they are in danger of going under as well.

Many people here are failing to make a distinction in their arguments between legal and illegal immigration.  I think every one here agrees that legal immigration is a good thing and necessary for our economy, so please quit using examples about how cutting immigration is a bad thing.  No one here is saying that. We just want it to be in the established, legal way. For example, the nursing shortage is cited.  It makes sense to import nurses to fill these positions, but in all my years I have never seen an illegal immigrant working as a nurse.  In fact, I have seen very few legal Mexican immigrants working as nurses.  In fact, I don't know of a single one.  the nurses were initially imported from the UK, and now a large percentage come from the Phillipines.  Unfortunately, this led to the opening of a large number of nursing schools there whose quality was questionable and whose sole purpose was to give a nursing degree for immigration purposes.

The argument that educating the illegals is a smart thing to do makes no sense at all.  It crowds the classrooms and negatively affects the education of those who are here legally.  As far as the Mexican population goes, even the legal ones don't place a high value on education.  In Utah, the high school graduation rate for whites is over 98%.  For Hispanics, it's around 67%.

You claim that you understand the problem because you worked in the fields back in the 80's.  I don't think you understand just how much things have changed in the past 25 years.  Things are very different and much worse.  Living and working in Southern and Central California over the past 20 years, I have seen the drastic changes that have occurred, especially since the first amnesty was granted.  The problems and the expenses of illegal immigration are much worse than what you saw 25 years ago.

Please, if we are going to continue this discussion, let's keep it to the problems of illegal immigration and not try to dilute the arguments with the all or nothing approach.

[BC]

Good link jb..

found this tidbit quite interesting

Electronic transfers are by far the most popular method. This was especially true during the past three years, when electronic transfers to Mexico increased 145 percent, from approximately $4.6 billion to more than $11 billion. As a share of all remittances, electronic transfers rose from 71 percent in 2000 to 86 percent in 2003. This increase is partly attributable to U.S. and Mexican government initiatives to allow Mexican citizens living in the United States, legally or illegally, to open accounts regardless of their immigration status.[1] U.S. banks are permitted to accept the Mexican matrícula consular card, issued by Mexican consulates in the United States, as an official form of identification to open accounts.