What kind of immigration bill would you support?

[BC]

BC,
You going to take the W-4 that goes with that SS# too?
I heard of a woman in Texas that got thrown in prison for tax evasion because 3 or 4 illegals were using her SS#.
KenC

KenC,

Bez problem as long as SSA pays out in the end.. lol

[Muj]

I support the defeat of the Bush-Kennedy Bill but agree with some of Wxman's logic.  Unenforcement of present immigration laws are to the advantage of business owners and politicians that is paid for by the taxpayer who receves little benefit.  

A just bill  taxes business owners (restaurants, farms, ...)  for the average cost of the illegals to the social system. Add up the all costs as goverment, medical, and education of the illegals/guests and divide by the total number (estimate of course) and prorate by the time the i/g is in the country for that work at that business.  Subtract the contribution to the social security.  The money goes to hospitals, schools, programs, infrastructure.  This shifts the cost from the taxpayers to the business owners.

Maybe a few business go south?  Usually those businesses are low profit anyhow and contribute little to the infrastructure.
Ok so maybe fruits and vegetable prices increase 10 to 20%.  So what, small in comparison to total food bill and tax savings.
Hospital care improves because the medical budget improves.
Education improves.

Wxman is right on Social Security, without the immigrants our poulation would actually decline.  We would be facing the same crisis as Italy and many European countries - fewer and fewer people to support the aging population.  However we need only about 25% to stay not 100%.

[DKMM]

Ken, there is no way that's true.  Unless she was involved somehow by claiming them or helping them shelter income.

We need to allow more people to come here and work.  Immigrants both legal and illegal fuel our economy far more than they take from it.  I think its just silly to sit here and complain about it when we are benefitting from it.  (unless you are a low skilled service worker with no savings and no pension, then you are not benefitting).

[Muj]

DKMM,

Other than a small funding to Social Security, the benefits are few.  If we legalize all the illegals then their benefits to Social Security will be reverse .  I agree some other benefits exists to all but the business owners profit diproportionately more than the average taxpayer.  The business owner should pay the costs of the illegals .

[KenC]

Ken, there is no way that's true.  Unless she was involved somehow by claiming them or helping them shelter income.

We need to allow more people to come here and work.  Immigrants both legal and illegal fuel our economy far more than they take from it.  I think its just silly to sit here and complain about it when we are benefitting from it.  (unless you are a low skilled service worker with no savings and no pension, then you are not benefitting).

The action against the woman was due to undeclared income on her taxes unknown to her.  I would hope that once the facts came out, she would be cleared.

I think there is a big misconception in the general public that the illegal workers here are all filling low paying jobs.  Not true at all.  many of them are skilled workers especially in the construction business.  An experienced cement finisher for example can earn in the neighborhood of $1,000 per week.  They're not all washing dishes and picking fruit.

That being said, I do not want to slam all Mexicans.  I have found them to be honest and very hard working people for the most part.  They seem to have that old pioneer spirit to get ahead through hard work and determination.  Most come to this country for the abundant opportunities to provide better for their families.  Most of what they earn is sent home to their families.  Mexico's economy would probably callapse if that funnel of money was cut off.  Given the choice between being here legally or illegally, they would choose legally, but that choice is not available.
KenC

[Muj]

Ken,

Most of the Mexicans here in the NW picking produce do not come for the money.  Most state they are here for the education and medical.   Once again the employer should pay this.  I know a few small construction owners.  All agree they are hard workers, at least for a few weeks.  Then they quit and steal the business.  I know two owners who will no longer hire Mexicans for this reason.

[BillyB]

I know there are people out there that are anti business, will bite the hand that feeds them, show contempt for those who give them a job, and is angry that America has more millionaires than any other nation. I am pro business, not only do owners benefit from a pro business attitude but consumers benefit through jobs and lower cost of services and goods. If the business does well, employers will pay employees more if they want to keep them from going to their competition.

Immigrants do help YOU. They do work the majority of low paying jobs, keeping the price of goods and services down which in turn keeps more money in your pocket. More money in your pocket means you buy more goods for yourself and which means the government gets more taxes off of goods you buy and Capitalism thrives. Immigrants are not taking the white man's job. Mexicans are working on the farms, landscaping and food industries. While the immigrants are performing back breaking work on the farm and doing yard work and working at McDonald's, American citizens have not moved on to unemployment since the unemployment rate remains low. Don't listen to the media, think for yourself. Citizens have moved on to a job better than the farm and McDonald's that pay more money. Immigrants have actually helped most citizens get a better job while taking very few lucrative jobs!.

Immigrants also keep your taxes down on government funded projects. I'm working 3 school projects at the moment and according to prevailing wages required by the government, I pay heavy equipment operators about $40/hr and laborers $30/hr and white guys dominate the skilled trades. Operators for landscapers are paid $13/hr and laborers $11/hr and Mexicans dominate that trade. Due to the low wages Mexicans earn, they keep the project cost down for the taxpayer who funds it. You benefit from it. Most people want to point out how an immigrant hurts them, I recognize the hurt too, but most fail to realize the benefit they get from immigrants. We need the people to operate this economy. Let the immigrants in or start having more babies.

Also there are international benefits in keeping relations smooth with Mexico and surrounding nations. Sometimes I wonder why we need to help North Korea but the returns are probably greater, or there is less damage to this nation than exercising other options. Strict enforcement and a hard line stance will not only damage your pocketbook and economy and create a police State for a number of people, it will damage relations with countries that do business with us or vote at the UN to help our agenda.

I'm still trying to figure out how some of you guys can place illegal immigrants in the same league as felons who are hardened criminals? If somebody trespassed on my property trying to steal something or hurt my family, I would physically hurt him or shoot him. If somebody trespassed on my property eating my last night leftover dinner in my garbage can, I'd show a little more compassion and understand that taking care of his hunger overrides obeying the law against trespassing. Calling the cops to enforce the law is not the solution to everything.

The poll seems to reflect what most Americans want. Last year I talked to an ultra liberal attorney and a talk show listening friend of mine who is very conservative. They both don't want amnesty. They got their info from the media or talk shows that the  politicians want amensty because they want big business money or the interest they want immigrant vote. But it is possible they are looking out for the welfare of this nation. A general doesn't look to have a vote from privates on how to run a war successfully. It seems the only politicians who voted in favor of amnesty are ones who's jobs are secure and could afford to lose votes from citizens such as Kennedy or politicians retiring and don't need votes such as Bush. Bush certainly wouldn't have brought up the issue of immigration on his first term. I doubt the next President would do that either until his/her second term. Unless something happens quick before Bush is gone, expect another 8 years of illegals working under the table.

[ScottinCrimea]

Given the choice between being here legally or illegally, they would choose legally, but that choice is not available.
KenC

Of course the choice is available, just as our fiancee's and wifes have the choice to be here legally or illegally.

[ecr844]

"Billy B,"


   Just an FYI, Bush JR had a stiff Imigration crack down platform in his first bid for the white house. this included 'the fence, strict enforcement, etc.... Do some research and watch the archives of the televised debates. This is just another instance of where your words don't match the facts per se.

[BillyB]

Of course the choice is available, just as our fiancee's and wifes have the choice to be here legally or illegally.

C'mon Scott. Our fiancee's and wives don't have much of a choice available to do things legally, on their own, OR even illegally on their own to get to America compared to Mexicans. They don't have a land border to the US and they don't have the will to risk their lives crossing the desert. They do have the advantage to becoming legal easily such as marrying a US citizen. When comparing apples to apples, our wives and fiancees, operating without our help, have as much chance on getting a visa and eventually a green card legally on their own as does a Mexican when applying for one. Chances are a little above 0%. Not much of an available choice to do things legally if the goal is to successfully come to America without the help of an American man.

I don't hold anything against Mexicans because they want to come here. If Ukraine or Ethiopia bordered our nation, we'd probably see a high percentage of illegal immigrants from those nations too. It's human nature for people to migrate where there are more opportunity for themselves and their family, it's not a crime that goes against the grain of normal human behavior as is murder.

Just an FYI, Bush JR had a stiff Imigration crack down platform in his first bid for the white house. this included 'the fence, strict enforcement, etc...

Am I supposed to be surprised and angered by this revelation??? I knew what Bush said and didn't beleive he would accomplish that. I still voted for Bush so blame everything on me. I don't get upset over campaign promises because I don't believe everything I hear. Elections happens every two years and it amazes me that people don't get the fact politicians, Liberal or Conservative, never do 100% of what they say.

What Bush said then was to get your vote because the people wanted to hear it. What he, besides Kennedy, is doing now, is not to get your vote, they don't need it, but do what he believes to make this country operate best under the circumstances of illegal immigration. Or do you really think Bush and company want to tear this country apart intentionally? If so, they're doing a poor job of it.

[TigerPaws]

BillB,

So you believe in amnesty for those who have committed crimes against the United States of America, for those who have broken the law?

Where do you draw the line, drug dealers, pimps. prostitution, gun running, illegal liquor, inferior unsafe products? Where is the line between crimes to be prosecuted and forgiven? If someone steals your identify and damages your credit and or empties your bank account is that not a crime? 

Amnesty was a bad idea in 1986 and is even a worse idea today. Strict enforcement is the key to this problem. Enforcement of the Laws of the United States of America.

 TigerPaws

[ScottinCrimea]

BillyB, You have got to be kidding!  Go to any major city and count the numbers of people from the FSU that are now living there legally.  They aren't all K1 cases!  Obviously they have the means to do it legally. As far as doing it illegally, check the statistics on the numbers of illegals that are from the FSU.  Sure they don't compare to the numbers for then Mexicans, but given the distances and the difficulties, it is significant and does show that they have every illegal means that the Mexicans do.

As far as this quote, "They do have the advantage to becoming legal easily such as marrying a US citizen".  Have you been reading this forum at all?  You call this process easy?  And Mexican women don't have this same option? I would dare say that there are a lot more Mexican women married to American men than FSU women.  How many of these are GCG's?

People lie cheat and steal every day to provide more "opportunities" for their families.  While I sympathize with those who feel that they need to go to such extremes to provide a better life for their family, they have the choice of working to improve conditions in their own country or taking the necessary steps to do it lawfully.  They choose the shorter path, flaunting the laws.  It's not a trait that I find desirable in new US citizens.

[William3rd]

If scooter gets amnesty, then why not just legalize everything? Hell. I will even give them my car.

[catzenmouse]

If scooter gets amnesty, then why not just legalize everything? Hell. I will even give them my car.

William,

 You really didn't expect a crony to ever get jail time did you? Even token jail time would have been something but...

[ScottinCrimea]

Compared to Clinton's pardons, this is just a blip on the radar.

[William3rd]

That was six years ago. And Bill's nickname wasn't "amnesty"

[ecr844]

He did after all make perjury, 'chic' you know. Well, that and he also wrote the book on how to humiliate your wife via national television. I mean really, some felonies I guess just aren't equal to others. That one even had an official 'Orwellian' seal of approval....

[Dan C.]

Tiger Paws,

  Yes, I feel one can draw a line between the crime of sneaking into the country and working illegally, and other crimes such as identity theft, drug dealing, prostitution, robbery, grand theft auto, murder, and so on.  Obviously, to you there is no distinction, but to me there is.  So for that reason, amnesty is a viable option. 

  What strikes me about amnesty is that those who have legally immigrated seem to get screwed for following the rules.  So for me, amnesty must have some sort of fine or such, and the person must wait a number of years to become a citizen.  Any sort of amnesty would need a list of crimes like those I have listed above that would void the amnesty and send the person home.  You may not feel such a thing is possible, but I do. 

Dan C.

[TigerPaws]

DanC,

 I am sorry but a crime is a crime, someone dose the crime they need to do the prison time otherwise we are NOT a country of laws. Most of the illegals have forged or otherwise illegal documents, that is a serious felony. Are we to forgive those people who committed felonies now?

TigerPaws

[catzenmouse]

We all have already seen that the laws do not apply to sports stars, celebrities, and politicians. Why should it be any different for illegal aliens? It is just another group of people who do get rewarded for breaking the laws that the rest of us would go to jail for. Screw us, we don't matter anyway right? Forge a SSN - FORGIVEN! Forge a work document - FORGIVEN! Just let ME try to do that. Where will I be... IN JAIL.

I'd be happy to pay more for fruits and vegetables. I am just sick of having the rules be different. If they can do it then I damn well want all of the fees I have ever paid to USCIS refunded. I want free medical and subsidized housing. What the hell is so hard to understand about this?

Spin it any way you want to but the fact is that they have broken the law, and most likely lots of laws, that we are held accountable for. How in any world that we all live in is that right?

Ken

[William3rd]

From reading these posts, we now know who the 2 amnesty supporters were!!!!!

[Dan C.]

Tiger Paws,

  Not all crimes are the same- if a person snuck into the country, and used forged/false documents for work, I would give them some sort of amnesty even though we are talking about crimes that are felonies.  Other felonies?  No, of course not.  If they held up a liquor store, send them home.  If they dealt drugs, send them home, and so on.    

  I believe we are a country of laws, and those laws can be changed, modified, waived as a majority of our elected representatives see fit.  I am sure you disagree with that position.  Clearly we will have to agree to disagree on this matter.  


Dan C.

[catzenmouse]

Dan C.

 If you forged a document for your lady where would you be? What would happen to her?

 You would be in jail and she would be barred from ever coming into this country. What you and others are saying is that it is okay for the illegals to do this but not for us to do this. Does that make any kind of sense?

 No doubt it will happen. Heck, we can't even call an office without having to choose English so why would we ever expect that this isn't already a done deal. We've lost this country already. And no, I am not against immigrants coming into this country at all as 99% of us are immigrants. I just want it to be done the way WE ALL have to do it.

Ken

[BillyB]

So you believe in amnesty for those who have committed crimes against the United States of America, for those who have broken the law?

Where do you draw the line, drug dealers, pimps. prostitution, gun running, illegal liquor, inferior unsafe products? Where is the line between crimes to be prosecuted and forgiven? If someone steals your identify and damages your credit and or empties your bank account is that not a crime? 

Amnesty was a bad idea in 1986 and is even a worse idea today. Strict enforcement is the key to this problem. Enforcement of the Laws of the United States of America.

Yes I believe in amnesty for illegal immigrants.  Different crimes require different punishment. One size does not fit all. If too many people are in jail for stealing candy, I'd let them out considering the limited budget and the need for real criminals to be there. Very rarely does anybody serve their full sentence for a small crime.  I'm not a fan in spending big dollars, resources and man hours finding and hunting down small time criminals or people who lie. If we did that, everyone in America would be serving time at least a few times in their life.

If amnesty in 1986 was proven to be a bad idea, how come it is on the lastest bill and will continue to be on all future bills I bet? Although the majority of people don't want it and never will, it makes sense to the highest levels of government and their line of thinking hasn't changed since 1986... and never will. Write your congressman if you're unhappy, everyone else has. Now we're in for another long ride of illegals remaining status quo. Amnesty must be part of any new bill. Strict enforcement only is too expensive and if anybody thinks it will be done effectively has wishful thinking. There are already law and methods incorporated to prevent all of Mexico from coming here. Throwing massive amounts of dollars at the problem will stop a few more Mexicans but it will never solve the problem by stopping most everybody.

Go to any major city and count the numbers of people from the FSU that are now living there legally.  They aren't all K1 cases!  Obviously they have the means to do it legally.

People lie cheat and steal every day to provide more "opportunities" for their families.  While I sympathize with those who feel that they need to go to such extremes to provide a better life for their family, they have the choice of working to improve conditions in their own country or taking the necessary steps to do it lawfully.  They choose the shorter path, flaunting the laws.  It's not a trait that I find desirable in new US citizens.

Where I live there are 5000+ FSU families and growing. I associated with some of them, I met and married one in the late 90's, I have two that work for me. Thanks to the deal Reagan made with Gorbachev, Many Christians were allowed to come to the States and soon after sponsor their relatives. With that deal came the lies and deception you do not find desirable in new US citizens Scott. Yes, many FSU citizens all of a sudden found God. With the limited amount of Christians allowed to come here, many did not come because an atheist took their slot with a lie.

People do pay American citizens to apply for a k-1 for them to come to the States, they marry and divorce a few years later. The American citizen will then find another willing to pay. I heard Chinese will pay around $50,000 for this.

People go into partnerships and chip in money to buy an American business such as a Chinese restaurant, hold it for a few years until they are legal to stay in America, then transfer money to the next guy to buy the restaurant and he will be eligible for a business visa and the cycle continues. The business does not need to make money, it is only used for getting people business visas.

All these people in these scenarios completed their documents legally to come here as you would like but yet, they lied.

Who here has not lied to get an edge on something, including a job? When you're desperate, you may even hype yourself up on a job application to feed your family. For those who do not lie, will the Angels please speak up. Or is it simply an American right to lie to get an edge but not the right of an immigrant? Lying is wrong but not worth the death sentence. Speaking of death sentences, many Middle Eastern countries apply the death sentence to those who drink and drive. You do not even need to be drunk! Maybe one of the reasons some people think Americans are criminals worthy of the death sentence is because many of us do drive after chugging a beer. I certainly don't want America to turn into Saudi Arabia with their take no prisoners attitude when it comes to the law.

A Russian guy I just hired for the Summer has a masters degree in Business and is working construction until he finds a job to utilize his degree. He is at the limit of his student visa and he must soon go home to Russia forever. He doesn't have any family here but he wants to stay. All of a sudden he is about to get married to an American citizen. Convenient and perfect timing isn't it? But who am I to judge his motives? He may actually love the woman.

One good thing about some of these illegal immigrants, who are labeled as criminals, is that they have a drive and motivation for a better life. I would not want people to come to America without a drive to succeed. I do not want anybody here who is not motivated to make something of themselves and not motivated for the benefit of their family.

Scott, think about why there are more Mexican women married to Americans than FSU women. My guess is because they're more accessible at home.

Ken, those that accept amnesty as a solution do not accept that's it's okay of illegals to come here the way they do. Not a single person said to drop enforcement entirely. But there is simply too many people to catch and we will not be able to change the behavior of Mexicans. When the government outlawed alcohol, it made millions of Americans criminal and it did not change the behavior of American's from drinking it. So the government solved the problem by decriminalizing it. So to the protest of some, America's drug of choice will remain legal because it is too expensive to put most of America in jail.

Out of curiosity, if someday guns and alcohol is again outlawed, how many of you would give up your guns, quit drinking and be a good example for the illegal immigrants you criticize?  Drinking alcohol or not, owning a gun or not and coming into the country illegally or legally isn't about good and evil. Helping your fellow man or murdering someone is.

[Dan C.]

Ken,

  Good point, I had not thought of that.  You are right, if I forge a document then either I go to jail or I spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder.

  However, the problem is that we have 12 million people here illegally, so there are two systems whether we like it or not.  That is not fair.  Something needs to be done, and enforcement alone will not do the trick.  Amnesty should be given to those who have done something wrong, but for whom an exception is made.    

  As I expressed earlier, the part of amnesty I really don't like is that those who follow the rules seem to be punished.  I don't favor letting illegals off completely, nor do I favor making them citizens right away.  Make them go through the same process for citizenship as everyone else.  

  With the demise of this bill, nothing will happen for a few years so the situation will remain the same, which is inherently unfair to all.

  I don't feel we have lost this country in the slightest.  America has changed over the last 350+ years, but it is still the greatest country in the world.  

Dan C.