What kind of immigration bill would you support?

[catzenmouse]

now if washington will do something is another story.

They are doing something about it. The same thing they always do. Put the blinders on and vote themselves another pay raise! 

[I/O]

If you add up all the costs over the past 25 years illegal immigration has cost the US taxpayer, you would begin to see the cost of the Iraqi War on Terror is just a drop in the bucket.

As I was reading the list of costs as posted, I found myself thinking exactly this and then scrolled down to find the words already there.

No one can document a single case where illegal immigration has helped, rather than hurt our country.

That's been the case forever.  The dogooders rarely can support their arguments with facts. 

We got the spotlight dragged onto us for locking up the illegal boat entrants and puting a stop to the "Tampa" arriving after it picked up a mob of them from a sinking fishing boat.  The SAS was sent in and put a sudden stop to the nonsense.  The hue and cry echoed all over, but the point was well enough proven.  No more (Known) boats have arrived since. In spite of the hue and cry the government was re-elected in a landslide. The dogooders seemed to go MIA.

A side note regarding the Latin illegals arriving in the USA, I happen to be quite friendly with several fine Mexican people from central Mexico and they are utterly ashamed of the illegal migration from their country into the USA.  Several of these people have fine educations received in the USA legally and visit there regularly, legally.  IMO you guys suffer at both ends, not only having the illegal entrants, but very often they are the worst from their own country anyway.  All that adds up to trouble and expense for the USA taxpayer/citizen.

Legitimising their current residency will NOT resolve the underlying social and economic issues related to illegal entrants.  First step is to tighten up security and cut the inflow, followed by a policy of expulsion. No reason why a revamped visa/work permit couldn't be available for guest workers for a limited period of time in order to sustain the seasonal or short term labour force if need be.

The USA, similar to my country has done a great job over the years of welcoming new commers to the country, but again, similar to my country, has been far too soft on the illegal entrant thing.  Pack 'em up and p!ss 'em off out the gate, then let them get in line with everyone else if they want to do it properly.

I/O

[Mamma D]

My, My .....My son suggests, that an ID card that is tamper proof and has photo and thumb print, tied to a good database to verify identity... and oh my goodness .... no mention of mandatory carrying of them... but to be able to prove, you are who you say you are and..... like when applying for a job.... Much the same as most of us do our passports.

The bags of ugly began to fly.... Police state  and such.....There is so much paranoia.....and all the while it appears we already have a Government that is above the law!

Now talk about Ugly...Wire tapes without court order... Interrogation of detainees that are over the top..that are spelled out and voids old accepted treatment according to treaty...Lets not even mention Gitmo.....and any other number of things....Yes  guys I am ticked....other words would better tell it like it is 

And before you ask... Yes, I do know about the Constitution..When "I" went to school, we had to study it. Things as they are moving today, not only bother me, they scare me to death...

Mamma D

[SANDRO43]

A side note regarding the Latin illegals arriving in the USA, I happen to be quite friendly with several fine Mexican people from central Mexico and they are utterly ashamed of the illegal migration from their country into the USA.  Several of these people have fine educations received in the USA legally and visit there regularly, legally.

Does their shame prompt them to do something about raising the standard of living of their now-emigrant compatriots, thus encouraging them to remain at home ?

[Vaughn]

A look back into the past reveals how utterly complacent the USA has become
in enforcing written law:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html

[Sohkay]

Mamma D,

I feel your fear. It's very real. It's why I'm considering throwing my support behind Ron Paul as a presidential candidate. He identifies himsself as a "constitutionalist". He believes Americans want freedom in their lives and that we need to return to the Constitution. He believes we shouldn't be going around the world trying to convince others about democracy with the business end of a rifle, but instead should be building a stronger America and once again return to the shining light example of a country. Convince others about how good our system is by example and trade, not by rifles and bombs. Interestingly enough, he is an Ob-Gyn doctor who has delivered over 4,000 babies, and he is opposed to abortion, though he is also opposed to having the federal government tell us how to lead our lives.

I think you need to look into his positions. He was the only candidate at the recent Republican debate that DIDN'T agree with a preemptive nuclear strike on Iran. The biggest and most positive thing I get from listening to him, reading him, and seeing the way he interacts with people, is sincerity, honesty and humility. I can't believe I'm saying this about a politician. Check him out Mamma D.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

[Maxx2]

Mamma D,

I feel your fear. It's very real. It's why I'm considering throwing my support behind Ron Paul as a presidential candidate. He was the only candidate at the recent Republican debate that DIDN'T agree with a preemptive nuclear strike on Iran. http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

He is for pulling the troops out of Iraq and wants to eliminate the Departments of Education, Energy and Homeland Security. He also didn't vote for VAWA and with it IMBRA, the later Mamma D supports. 



Maxx

[DKMM]

Its basic economics guys, illegals help our economy and raise our standard of living.  This is something that we take as fact in the financial world, its hardly debatable.   When you realize the value of economic inputs instead of looking at where the money goes that they generate for themselves you will understand it.

But since I was curious I asked my cousin about it this weekend (he's a professor at a prestigious S. California university) and he confirms that its a worldwide phenomenon.  Look at cities in China with immigration.  Look at Spain and Ireland and why they've been booming.  Germany in the 70's and so on.

This is from a purely economic point of view, not counting cultural and social costs.  I understand and agree that something needs to be done, but its not a drain on our economy, that's just plain ignorance.

And I'm as right wing as the next nut job.

[ScottinCrimea]

The basics is that LEGAL immigration helps our economy.  Illegal immigration does not.  I challenge you to show any proof that illegal immigrants give more to our economy then they take away.  We have seen numerous studies on this thread that show the costs of illegals, but not one that shows that it helps the economy.  So since you are so sure, please share the documentation that you have that shows otherwise.  I'm sorry, but to believe otherwise is just plain ignorance.

[I/O]

Its basic economics guys, illegals help our economy and raise our standard of living. 

Really? How so? General opinion is just that.  Facts and numbers might help convince people.

Look at cities in China with immigration.  Look at Spain and Ireland and why they've been booming.  Germany in the 70's and so on.

And all of that immigration is/was illegal?

This is from a purely economic point of view, not counting cultural and social costs.

Again, show some hard numbers in $ terms and the arguement might carry some weight.

but its not a drain on our economy, that's just plain ignorance.

Please elighten the readers.

I/O

[BillyB]

Actually, things are much worse than anyone here realizes.

25 Reasons to Deport Illegal Aliens... I have included the web links, check it out for yourself.

jb, most of what you presented as reasons to deport illegal aliens are based on info from special interest groups. They are overblown numbers and cost estimates far exceeds anybody else's throughout this thread and should definitely not be considered fact.

I have mention time and time again for people not to get worked up based on what they read but from the reaction of posters here, many believed, and got worked up based on their posts after yours.

There is too many holes in the reasons you listed but I'm tired and will show the obvious stuff without having to dig deep.

There was mention in your references the population of illegals were 29-30% in state and federal prison. Bill O'reilly says 32%. Based on this site and others that can be Googled, http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm  2,245,189 people are incarcerated and hispanics are incarcerated at a rate of 1244 people per 100,000. At that rate, out of 42,000,000 hispanics in this country, approximately 522,500 are incarcerated which amounts to roughly 23% of the total amount of people incarcerated. Illegals are a small portion of Hispanics and do not make up all of the 23% so the percentage of illegals incarcerated is surely much lower than the 23%, 29-30% from those references and lower than 32% from Bill O'reilly. I like Bill but he's not always right and repeats things he heard without total verification.

One reference said it costs $3 mil a day to incarecerate illegals. Another reference said it costs 1.6 bil a year. The numbers don't add up between the two of your references.

If high crime rate of illegals is 2.5 higher than whites and should be deported based on that, blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate than whites 7-1. Although crime, welfare, lack of education are high among blacks, they still contribute to the economy overall. 100 working men can make up the difference of 1 man in jail.

You referenced welfare costs as a big problem on the scale of education but another site you submitted said welfare is a much smaller problem than medical and education. Who's right out of the references? They both can't be but they both can be wrong on the price tag.

$200 billion a year in suppressed American wages? I see American citizens moving on to better jobs than the jobs illegals are taking. China works their people like slaves and sells us items cheap. Their economy is doing fine with cheap labor. Some will say they are suppressing American wages and stealing jobs and closing American businesses. Others will say they are benefiting us by working as slaves and give us more for less, thus we are able to spend the money saved on other items or for our retirement.

One of your references said 4 to 10 million people crossed the border in 2005. Since there are 12 million illegals, 2005 was a big year! But another reference said half a million enter each year. The big wave of immigrants did not come during amnesty in 1986 as some claim. Illegal immigrants didn't come in big numbers until the late 90's

NPI, a special interest group, estimates it will cost 41-46 billion for each of the next five years for mass deportation. That sounds cheap to me but I know better. Sending 12 million illegals to Mexico where they have no job and nothing for that matter, they will try, try again and the cost of enforcement will be higher than the estimates because the estimates don't factor in deporting the same person 7+ times!

One quote says 10 billion is sent to Mexico a year but another says 42 billion. Who are the brains behind these studies? One study is 420% higher than the other.

One study from the conservative think tank, Heritage Foundation, says 103 milllion immigrants will enter the US if the immigration bill passes, one Senator you quoted says 217 million. Who's right? the Heritage changed their numbers and reduced it if anybody read the update that came out months ago... That's located right under the article title. Before labeling anything a fact, read the article and understand it's coming from a group with an agenda which means it's only their opinion.

One million sex crimes committed by 12 million illegals? A little high considering the jail population isn't what these special interest groups thought they were. Most illegals are in jail for something else than sex crimes.

You will find the numerous references you wrote to the price tag on education and medical are way different from each other.

I don't believe 12 million illegals are causing 4380 murders and 4745 drunk driving deaths as stated by that one Senator. That would mean the rest of the population of 290 million is causing the remaining 13,620 murders and 13,255 drunk driving deaths roughly. I certainly would like to see how he came up with his numbers.

Maybe this Senator and other special interest groups conducted their studies based on the whole Hispanic population and news media among others is passing the amount of crimes, problems and other dollar figures off as it is based on illegals.

Please try not to confuse people with to many FACTS that might contradict their preconceived ideas. It could cause brain damage.

Tigerpaws  

Tigerpaws, if you read what you're referring to as fact, you would've understood the the discrepancies in numbers all over the place and the special interest groups putting out these numbers. It is an attitude such as yours that I begin to understand why people think all men searching for a foreign wife are losers and abusers. They don't think for themselves or investigate and confirm, they take what the media feeds them and call it "fact".

Scott, The highest levels in government want to make the illegals legal. Contrary to the beliefs of others who think this is a no-brainer and who think America is saving money kicking them out, it's going to cost. I gave you guys reasons earlier on how to resolve the issue with the minimal hurt on the economy. And if you think you will cut down on the crime and improve education if you successfully replace illegals with legals, you are mistaken. It's a fact, no matter what ethnic group you have working low paying jobs, the people in those fields of work commit more crime, do more drugs and apply for social benefits more often.

[DKMM]

Because when valuing economic inputs, you measure the value of the output they produce.  Illegals are inputting much more work into our economy than we pay them.  That's why they are here and that's why we hire them.  Our profit as a whole society (unless you are a laborer in direct competition) is measured by the difference in what they produce and what they cost.  This affects both the producers and consumers of which we are all a part of, whether someone buying a home built from their cheap labor or eating cheaper food picked by them or owning stock in a company that profits from their work.

Also, we are operating at a full employment economy.  So I don't even give that suppressed wage theory any thought, its total crap.  We need to make the borders more open to sources of labor and free trade to prosper.

There, I hope that wasn't too hard to follow.

[BC]

Not to detract from jb's list upthread, the current situation is not the sum of costs mentioned from different sources.

Probably the most objective reports I have seen are found here:

http://www.cis.org/

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html

...legal immigrants with little education make very extensive use of welfare programs because their incomes are very low and because they receive these programs on behalf of their U.S.-born children. This is especially true for Medicaid, by far the costliest program.

This is probably one of the fundamental items that can be changed.  I think the policy of granting automatic citizenship for all born on US soil needs to be changed.  Many countries require at least one parent to be a citizen prior to the child being born.

Closing this 'loophole' would cost absolutely no money, and require no fences.  Those that are already here though will be staying.. after all they are no longer 'illegal'.

Unless this changes, at least half of the problem will never go away.. never..  In fact if you fix the rest, you will probably make the situation worse.. and even have pregnant women parachuting across the border if it is the only means available.

[edit]  Have seen figures ranging from 150,000 to 300,000 'anchor babies' born each year in the US.  This is nothing new..  the problem has been known for at least 10 years, probably longer.. - and absolutely nothing is being done about it, unlike other countries i.e. Ireland that took bold steps to avoid disaster.

Just wait a few more years.. until millions more reach voting age.. then I guarantee there will be no turning back.

[I/O]

There, I hope that wasn't too hard to follow.

I have heard the theory, but I ask again, show me the numbers in cold hard $ terms. I suspect that may not be possible because they probably don't exist in any credible form, and if that is so, then everything else in favour of illegals assisting macro economics is simply speculation.

I have nothing against legal imported labour. For an ultra small economy, we did it very successfully, starting largely in one hit of 100 000 workers and their families for a large infrastructure project 50 years ago and it worked a treat.  By and large those people remained and assimilated well as productive and respected members of general society.

But the bottom line, it was done legally.

I/O

[jb]

I can only surmise that BillyB and DKMM do not live in a region which has a lot of illegal immigrants.

True story--- My wife is a teacher.  She applied to the CCISD (Corpus Christi Independent School District) for a teaching job a couple of years ago.  When they saw her background she was immediately hired, Math teachers are hard to find down here.  She was assigned to the South Park middle school as a 6th grade math teacher.  She had 5 classes per day, roughly 20 children per class.  Out of the approximately 100 students, 2 were black,,, none were white.  Parent/Teacher relationships required a translator at all times.  Most of these hispanic kids were the product of homes where at least one parent was either in prison or on drugs, 50% of the kids were being raised by grandparents as the biological parents were not on the job.   Another 25% were in foster care for the same reason.  Of the remaining 25% who were being raised by at least one natural parent, English was not their 1st language.

My wife lasted less than one semester.  Another week in that hellhole and she'd have been in the loony bin herself.

It's so easy for the left wingers to wax on about the benefits of illegal immigration, but until you actually get your hands dirty a little you have no idea of what you are talking about.

[SANDRO43]

She was assigned to the South Park middle school ... My wife lasted less than one semester. Another week in that hellhole and she'd have been in the loony bin herself.

No wonder .

[jb]

Sandro,

Actually it looks more lke this.

http://ccisd.us/ccisd/default.aspx?page=288

The web page puts a positive spin on things, but I assure you it is not reality.

[SANDRO43]

This must be the "center" (uses size to score (on offense), to protect the basket closely (on defense), or to rebound) of their basket team, then .

[jb]

LOL, Sandro, that one will grow up to become a BMW.

Do you know the definition of a "Pachanga"?  It's a Mexican party, usually a 12 pack of cheap beer, a sack full of tacos, and a couple of BMWs.


BMW= Big Mexican Woman.   

[Sohkay]

Maxx,

What I'm finding the more I research Ron Paul is that there are areas where I disagree with his policy approach, or have concerns about his policy approach. What trumps that for me is this concept of returning to basic Constitutional values. It is perhaps, just what the "doctor ordered".

Listen to Dr. Paul speak about immigration, enforcing existing law and his position on amnesty at 5:00 into the video.



Hope things are going good for you Maxx.

Sohkay

He is for pulling the troops out of Iraq and wants to eliminate the Departments of Education, Energy and Homeland Security. He also didn't vote for VAWA and with it IMBRA, the later Mamma D supports. 



Maxx

[SANDRO43]

 

Do you know the definition of a "Pachanga"?  It's a Mexican party, usually a 12 pack of cheap beer, a sack full of tacos, and a couple of BMWs. BMW= Big Mexican Woman. 

I knew one meaning (a merengue-like Cuban dance of the 1950s, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachanga), thanks for adding to my fund of knowledge .

[Wayne B]

It's so easy for the left wingers to wax on about the benefits of illegal immigration, but until you actually get your hands dirty a little you have no idea of what you are talking about.
   jb,              

[ScottinCrimea]

BillyB, Just ignore the discrepencies in the statistics and take the lowest numbers cited for all.  It's still one heck of a huge and expensive problem.

You keep comenting on how those in the highest levels of government want amnesty so it must be right, especially since some promoting it won't be re-elected.  Just read some history books about some things that "the highest levels of government" wanted that nearly destroyed our country.  Using that logic, you certainly can never complain about the Iraq war or any of the consequences, because that is what "those in the highest levels of government" wanted.

You said: "And if you think you will cut down on the crime and improve education if you successfully replace illegals with legals, you are mistaken. It's a fact, no matter what ethnic group you have working low paying jobs, the people in those fields of work commit more crime, do more drugs and apply for social benefits more often."

The truth is, if you think you will cut down on crime and improve education by suddenly changing what we call them from illegals to legals through amnesty, you are mistaken.  Those that follow the legal route to citizenship or legal worker status must pass sufficient checks to weed out a lot of the criminals.  They also demonstrate their williingness to work within the law.

You also have things a bit backward in your second sentence.  If someone comes from a background of criminal activity or dependence on welfare, or if they do drugs, the low paying jobs are the only ones they can get.

[jb]

As usual, VDH says it way better than I can.

http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson070907.html

[catzenmouse]

As usual, VDH says it way better than I can.

http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson070907.html

  Very Well Said!