Houston we have a problem

[ScottinCrimea]

KenC, I'm not arguing against you.  If you check you will see my comments about the whole ring affair.  MY advice is not to forgive and forget, it is to take it as a sign that there needs to be more time.  I said this before and this latest incident only confirms it.  He shouldn't run in either direction.

[Rvrwind]

This is not good news DKMM...I'm sorry for sure but I gotta say, me I'd be walking away.
You can do as some suggest & give it more time, which I'm sure is needed but it won't change the fact that she lied. I'm sorry but I don't give much leeway when it comes to lying. For me its a deal breaker with no reprieve.
I know you, we have met, we have talked unlike others here & knowing what I know about you I can honestly say that no matter how it turns out, this will eat away at you if you go forward. I know it & I am pretty sure by what your posting you know it. It will always be a scar on your relationship & will always be in the back of your mind. This is not good.
Your an adult & a big boy & you have to decide whats best for you but to be sure don't rush into anything at this point. Really think about what your next move is going to be & make it without hesitation or looking back. Though it seems like a small thing now, things like this tend to fester & grow & can give you nagging doubts that can in time break you apart. That is something you will need to decide if you are prepared to cope with.

[BC]

Am I being a bit overboard when I think this is a huge red flag?   I'm having issues with trust now, even though I reasonably don't think there is anything else about her that she is hiding from me. I mean we are still rather new in the relationship and its not like she waited till we were married but at the same time it feels weird.   I told her there better not be anything else she is hiding from me but she swears that this was the only thing.   I was free to ask her anything else and everything seems OK.  Still, when I marry someone I have to trust her with everything and I thought I had all the bases covered...

Is 'rather new in the relationship' the time to file a K1?  Putting the cart before the horse does have it's risks.  Not trying to deter, but as you now realize it doesn't make things easier and the risks involved are indeed greater.  You mentioned that in the beginning you desired a woman that was not divorced.  The big question is had you known she was divorced right after meeting for the first time, would you have continued the relationship?  Obviously this requirement was important enough for you to state beforehand.  Expecting complete trust in a budding relationship whether romantic or not usually does not work out well.  Trust takes time and experience to build.  I think your expectation of complete trust were a bit unrealistic.  Instead of battling with the trust issue, battle with the true conflict.. your desire for a previously unmarried woman instead of a divorcee.  IMHO this has a lot more to do with you than with her.. trust me 

[Jazzyclassy]

Scott,
I listened to all DKMM's crap before and originally took him seriously but now that he cannot even keep his lies straight, I know it's all crap.
Maybe if he would take matrimony seriously, I might take him more serious.  You want to know what kind of me are dangerous to newbies?  It's DKMM.  Planning on getting engaged to woman he spent a few hours with before.  Asking the forum what it though about pawning off a fake ring on his "beloved."  Or telling her it was fake and if she performs up to his expectations, he would give her the real thing.  And you want to defend this guy?  Maybe he should join your Ivory Tower group.  Perfect candidate.
KenC

I absolutely agree with Ken C here!

and I also agree with Richard at some point

and this is the main clue to all these things


[/quote] IMHO this has a lot more to do with you than with her.. trust me  [/quote] by BC

DKMM is a great lovely guy , but  as I already told he is fine with the fact that women are lying to him, he needs to change the priorities in his own mind and personality , what is he looking for a club girl , or a wife ?

[MaxxumUSA]

DKMM,

Dude...  You are in a pickle.  You see...  you are emotionally attached to a woman and she is attached to you.  If you were not then there would be no thought and you would have dumped her immediately upon learning about this previous marriage.

So...  from my point of view there are a few different ways of lying and all of us humans usually practice these methods.

1.  One more obvious form is outright making up a story.  I.E.  "There's a snake behind you"  or "I can jump 200 ft high"

2.  Answering a question KNOWINGLY dishonestly.  I.E.  Were you ever married?  NO

3.  Witholding information.  Gray area here, but IMO still a lie.  Instance:  Q.  Where did you get that ring?  A.  A friend.  Where the "friend" is the woman's fiance and the person asking is some side love interest.

So...  I think we all do use these different methods at at least some point in our life.  However having said that - regular use of any of these are unacceptable in a relationship.

For instance...  My Elena might ask me certain things about women I have known in the past.  I don't see any good going into details about certain topics so I use #3 to save us both time and hurt feelings.  BUT - when she asks me a DIRECT question about anything I answer honestly.

She did the same for me when shoe was on the other foot.  When I asked her a DIRECT question about something on my last visit in april - she answered honestly.  It cleared up my questions immediately because she was lightly using #3 for the same reasons I did.

In any case...  If you asked  your woman DIRECTLY if she had ever been married and she answered you dishonestly I would say this is MUCH bigger infraction than just trying to protect your feelings.  ANY woman I have ever been with AFTER my first wife that I found to outright lie - I dumped immediately after such lie.  Immediately.

I learned from my first marriage that lies have no place in a loving relationship.  My ex lied to me before we married about some major issue.  I forgave her because "I loved her" and because "I didn't want to live without her" and because "I was happy"  - All bullshit.   I should have dumped her ass, left her dead cold.  My life with her was miserable and her lies continue to this day.

Do you want to go through life questioning whether your wife is telling you the truth?  Wondering what she was doing during those 4 hours of shopping?

I'm sorry...  but one major lie is NOT good.  And this is major.  I mean...  within the first two or three emails is when this information is usually divulged in normal online correspondence.  This means that you fell in love with a woman that should not have made it to email number two or three.  - or even #1 in the instance that you would not have written her if she was divorced on her profile.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven and I feel for you.  I know it is very difficult to separate facts from feelings once the heart is involved.  I am not advising you to dump her - I am telling you it would be difficult for me to make a decision about this.

IF I did move forward with a woman who did this to me - there would be a line in the sand and I would also extend the K-1 filing time by at least 6 months to a year or two visits - whichever comes first.  I was engaged a few years ago to a woman in the USA.  We rushed the engagement.  We planned an august wedding...  When she started showing a few flags I postponed the wedding by 6 months.  She FREAKED out on me even more - so I cancelled.  Goodbye Adios, goodnight.  LOL

Good luck to you.

[Phil dAmore]

Another example of how RW can, will and DO with-hold critical pieces of information until the last possible moment.

I like to call this the 'need to know' effect.  It may seem like an innocent oversight but I have enough experience to know that it isn't.

She 'forgot' that she was married?  That's like a man 'forgetting' he got a blowj*b.  It doesn't happen.

At this point you should be asking yourself what else she hasn't told you.

Don't write her off for this, but you need to sit down and get everything on the table.  Only you can decide what you can and can't live with.

BTW, you can expect a verbal sh!tstorm from her if and when she ever finds out that YOU kept something from her.

Good luck.

[Mir]

BTW, you can expect a verbal sh!tstorm from her if and when she ever finds out that YOU kept something from her.

I am sure she is getting this from him these days

[Gator]

DKMM,

There are many contributing factors to your case:

1.  This happens when a couple has not spent a lot of time together.

2.  Her personality - did JC not describe her as "reserved", "not open" or something like that.

3.  She is young.

4.  The marriage was probably a very bad experience, maybe even traumatic.  As a way of coping some people block "bad experiences" from their memory.  I imagine that there is much more about her ex-husband that she does not want to discuss.  She needs to discuss it with you and open up - it is the only way to fully understand her.

I predicted some bumps in the road for you, but not a sinkhole.  For sure you should delay the paperwork.  Stop your parents' visit to St. Piter.  Go to her city and just talk, talk, talk about her marriage (why was it so bad) and other things.  I guarantee you that there is more that she is not telling you.  Then decide.  If she can trust you to reveal everything, it will make your realtionship even stronger

Both my two RW loves told me everything, but it took a year for them to reveal their psychological trauma.  And indeed trauma was there BIG TIME.  From what I know, RW like to keep skeletons in the closet.   I think RW have had more trauma, severe difficult times, etc. and it is indeed very troubling for them to discuss it with someone because it brings back so many bad memories.

[I/O]

Where's our ol' mate Forrest Gump when he is needed most?  Oh, maybe he is still running. Smart guy that.

Black, white or grey, a lie is a lie is a lie and one like that ain't gunna fix itself.  Kinda like candy, there'll be more where that one came from and IME they won't get smaller, they'll get bigger.

Sorry guys, but I won't make any cultural excuses on this one because she might be Russian or whatever. It's the oldest bait on the boat.  Get 'em nicely hooked first and then spill the "Darky's". I struck one similar early on a few years back and cut her clean adrift.  I note she is still searching.  No surprise.  The second best decision I made in this whole process.     

I/O

[William3rd]

excuses, excuses, excuses. . . .

Cut her in the clear. A lie is a lie. And this one is a BIG one. She should have resolved that question in the first meeting.

How you going to explain the cancellation of the parental visit? Lie?

There is no due process for foreign relationships. Zero integrity is just that. If you lied to her about marriages and the like, what would you expect.

[IAmZon]

Excellent advise from all.

Let me emphasize something your TRs and activity does not consider - TIME.

Unless you have some chronic condition, DKMM - sing the Rolling Stones to yourself "T...I...M...E  is on my side."

How in the name of God!  Why in the name of God! do you RUSH so?!?!?!

Clearly you are emotionally attached (prematurely probably), Clearly there are some issues (you do NOT know their depths).  Why force yourself to make either/or decision?

Life will bring gravity, urgency, and sadness. Do not manufacture it. 

You live in California?  Your not on a tight budget?  Go to Vegas for the weekend:)  Make yourself stop feeling like you are in a soap opera.  Then you can see, feel, and judge clearly.   

Dude!  you have only known the girl for a couple of months! 

[Wayne]

I had a similar experience.  I was doing a K-1 for S.  She was at the US Embassy in Kyiv.  I got a call from her best friend, M.  S had been married, had a child, and been divorced.  I knew all about this.  They were only married about 6 months.  He did not see his daughter.  We got permission from him to take the kid.  I thought everything was fine.  So M tells me there is a problem.  S was married once before when she was very young.  The marriiage only lasted a few months.  But--S did not tell me about it!  She did not put anything about it on the biographic information form or the I129F.  But S brought divorce papers to the embassy for both exhusbands.  She had changed her last name twice.  So all of this had to be sorted out.  When M called me, they were worried that the embassy would find out that S did not tell me about the first husband, so M asked me to say that I knew about it but just forgot to list the information on the forms.  Big mistake!  I should have cancelled the visa on the spot!

Anyway, the visas were delayed while they did an FBI check on the other last name.  S and her Daughter came to America--but S was not satified when she saw my home and left.  Of course, I had sent many photographs of the house to S.  I found out that S had a problem with lying and could not be trusted.  I believe she will never make anyone a good wife.  Now I see she has profiles where she lies about her age and height. 

So my advise would be find someone else.  At least spend a lot more time together with her in her environment and meet all her friends and family.

[HiTech]

DKMM: From your trip report.

So I got to dinner and had some conversation.  At this point, she was really getting edgy about my seemingly being aloof to the end of the trip and the future of us together.  I was asking about how she will get home from the airport and such and she said "it seems like you are already trying to get rid of me".  that kind of got dinner on a bad start and i continued it with a pointed question about whether she ever lived with a boyfriend.  I was trying to get some info in my mind about it because I knew i would find out soon when we gather the info for the visa.

It appears you were pushing the subject about had she lived with some one. And obviously she did not tell you at that point.
Ask your self very clearly has there been any other things she has said, that you accepted, but her reason did not make 100% since to you?

Ask yourself this also, did she really say she was not divorced because of bad memories? Or is it more likely she said never been married to better her chances of success. If your answer to this question is the latter, next ask yourself, do you really want to be with a lady who is that self serving?

I also just ended my relationship with my Lady 1 week ago because of similar issues. And I am still having problems keeping my head on straight about it. I had the K-1 filed about 1.5 months back. Not sure If I will be able to get the ring back from her or not.

HiTech

[WmGO]

I agree with Jazzy, KenC, Daveman, Rvrwind, Maxxum, I/O,
Wm3rd, Wayne and Hitech = good common sense!

If you lie you die.

Period.

[WmGO]

.... I understand how a simple lie in the beginning can be compounded as time goes on, but .... while not necessarily a red flag...........

So lying about not being previously married is not a red flag??
Horse manure! ALL lying is a red flag!

I have noticed a very interesting habit/mentality with you Scott (prior use of one t is innocent oversight on my part - and it was immature for you to assume otherwise)........and that is this:

You obviously and clearly apply a standard of moral *relativism* to FSUW to explain away and justify inappropriate behavior. You whitewash it. WHICH IS TERRIBLE ADVICE TO NEWBIES -  or anyone for that matter.

And then you apply a completely different static moral standard to WM - classic example being Pike. Note: nowhere do you attempt to apply any standard to Pike's women - another inconsistency.

Hey, if I wanted to apply a static standard to you I could scream "fornicator" - you lived with your wife for two years out of wedlock! And in the midst of all the Pike TR hullaboo you post a new thread of a very explicit nature about what you have found inside a women's orifices in the emergency room!!! Totally inconsistent!

Let's see:

1. Married the first FSUW you ever met.
2. She asked for a substantial sum of money before you even met.
3. Had to move to Ukraine to get her to marry you.
4. She dishonestly withheld important information that would ordinarily be a deal breaker - and you just brushed it aside when you found out.
5. You have posted that "all Americans are shallow".
6. You have posted that the only reason Americans are very generous is because they have a guilty conscience about being wealthy.
7. You posted that there is nothing wrong with bribery in FSU - it is just supplemental income for better government service.
8. You  have posted that an FSUW taking advantage of a WM's generosity by lying about the costs is the same thing as a seller in a market charging the foreignor a higher price than a local.

You are one piece of work.

 

[BC]

Jeez WM..

Don't have much time right now, gotta go bbq some chicken..  but my first impression:

When dating we all push the envelope as to 'truthfulness', both men and women.  Scott's comments regarding 'past history' are quite in line with my albeit limited experience with RW.

It's what happens later that counts..  As the relationship continues more and more is filtered.

I guarantee you that nobody is perfect.. there will always be something caught in the net. Only then can one decide whether to put up with it.

More maybe later..

[Rvrwind]

Sorry, but I disagree BC, Lying is lying, period & if you are naive enough to think they only lied once you are truly naive. The more they lie the easier it gets. My son is a perfect example & his lies have cost him his banishment from our entire family from Grandmother to all aunts & uncles & yes, me. We no longer associate with or will help him, he is on his own, thats what lying buys you & it is well deserved!!
Lying is not a cultural thing, nor is it a mechanism for hiding a painful subject. It is what it is DECIET!! Plain & simple. You want to live with & trust someone you know is a liar, well be my guest but I sure as hell won't, BTDT & it cost me nearly everything I owned.
Trust & Respect are earned, not given & Lies are not on the road to Trust & Respect, they go to an entirely different town!!

[Sohkay]

DK,

I just posed your situation to my fiance', a lovely and wise beyond her years, 30 something Ukrainian woman. Here were her thoughts.

1) You have not known her long enough. If you want to continue the relationship, you should plan to go back and visit with her again...especially after this incident. If you cannot move beyond this at the next meeting, then it is probably time to end the relationship. So stop the K-1 and get back to what you should have been doing in the first place which was taking more time getting to know each other.

2) Your statement about wanting a woman with no divorce was probably what caused this lie to occur. She was worried that she would lose you. This isn't an excuse or a justification, but a reason. It's also a possible indication of how much she likes you. She doesn't want to lose you.

3) She believes that all people are capable of doing something stupid in their lives, but when two people love each other, forgiveness is an important component of that love. Two people who love each other MUST learn how to forgive.

4) My fiance' understands how badly you must be feeling about this right now. If you think that you care for her so much, and she for you, then go back and spend more time with her. This is the only way you will know for sure.

5) The fact that she offers to return the ring to you is a potentially good sign that she is not greedy.

6) Finally, she recommends that you listen to your own heart and mind, for this is the only place where you will find what is right for you. Don't let the voices of many confuse your thinking...feel with your own heart and think with your own mind.

Now I will tell you something about my relationship, and if you know anything about me on this board, I am not one to share many private details. But for you, I will do this. I have known my fiance' for over 2.5 years now. Back in the the autumn of 2006 something happened between us and we broke up for two months. (And no, it was nothing tawdry or deal breaking like unfaithfulness, but other things). It was painful. Well, as things worked out after a couple months, we started a little communication. There were serious apologies and statements about the situation that resulted in personal growth and development. We thought we would try again.

I went back to spend a month with her and the little one, and I'll tell you DK, I wasn't in their house hugging and kissing them for a few minutes that I realized that I didn't want to live my life without them. It was cathartic, enlightening. My resolve was very quickly back to 100% when I felt their loving energy for me. We had some very serious discussions at first and discovered that the problems between us were resolvable.

One piece of advice I will offer you...do not tolerate pissy little rants about not wanting to answer questions about the past. Be the man in the relationship. Firmly yet fairly, get the information you absolutely must have in order for you to make an informed decision about her. And be willing to provide the same to her so she can make her decision.

So, maybe it's just time to put the K-1 off to the side, give the parents a raincheck on the visit, and go back and do what you should have done in the first place, which was spending more time getting to know her.

Good luck to you.

[Mir]

Your statement about wanting a woman with no divorce was probably what caused this lie to occur. She was worried that she would lose you. This isn't an excuse or a justification, but a reason. It's also a possible indication of how much she likes you. She doesn't want to lose you.

Or He doesn't want to lose her and therefore wants to believe that was the reason she did not tell him about her divorce.
Only he knows the true sequence of events and the right context, the ball is in his court and only he can decide which shot to play.
BTW the davushkas are once again dominating the ladies Wimbledon championships both on and off the lawns

[Kuna]

DKMM,

Sokhay's post is a good one with a balanced view of what has happened, and what you might consider doing.

The thing I keep coming back to is "What was her motivation"?  Why hide it from you?

We must remember that it's a big step for most FSUW to list themselves on a dating site...

They get hundreds if not thousands of emails from all types of men...

Very few men ever visit...

And when the few do visit, the ladies often find out the correspondence doesn't come close to the reality.

Maybe she felt like she finally had found a god man and she didn't want to lose you through disappointing you???

With more time you'll both feel more confident about sharing more of your reality. 

At home we take MUCH more time dating, and email, holidays etc remains a less than ideal way to learn about each other.

Take more time... let your confidence grow... give her the chance to share more things that are based on reality rather than passion and desire.

If you feel like you've found a good girl give it enough time to become the reality you desire...

I wish you good luck and greater comfort through understanding...

[BC]

Sorry, but I disagree BC, Lying is lying, period & if you are naive enough to think they only lied once you are truly naive. The more they lie the easier it gets. My son is a perfect example & his lies have cost him his banishment from our entire family from Grandmother to all aunts & uncles & yes, me. We no longer associate with or will help him, he is on his own, thats what lying buys you & it is well deserved!!
Lying is not a cultural thing, nor is it a mechanism for hiding a painful subject. It is what it is DECIET!! Plain & simple. You want to live with & trust someone you know is a liar, well be my guest but I sure as hell won't, BTDT & it cost me nearly everything I owned.
Trust & Respect are earned, not given & Lies are not on the road to Trust & Respect, they go to an entirely different town!!

RVR,

We agree more than we disagree.  I don't condone lying but am realistic enough to acknowledge that especially in the dating phase 'truth' may be stretched a bit (on both sides), especially with younger folks.

Sorry to hear about the troubles with your son.. indeed quite sad.

[ScottinCrimea]

WmGO, Where the heck did all of that come from?  A very classic definition of ranting and raving if I've ever seen one.

Remember when you accused me of being the ranter and the raver and I challenged you to back it up?  I said this, "Second:  I'm going to put you to the KenC test.  Show me the posts where I made personal attacks and ranted and raved.  Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm ranting and raving.  Since according to you I do this constantly, it shouldn't be too hard to find numerous examples."  For some unexplained reason you suddently went very silent.  No response.  In fact no post directed to me at all until this latest gem. I guess you were hoping everyone would just forget.

By the way, thanks for finally getting my name right.  I don't think it was immature at all for me to question your reasons.  When everytime you respond to a post of mine and my name is staring you right in the face you still get it wrong, and Scott being such a common name, I have to assume that you are either not too bright or it is intentional.  I went with the milder option.

And then you have the nerve to cut and paste a statement I made to change the meaning.  That is totally low class and unacceptable! Here is what you quoted:
".... I understand how a simple lie in the beginning can be compounded as time goes on, but .... while not necessarily a red flag..........."

And here is what I actually said.  I highlighted the part you left out to change the meaning.

Boy, I've gone back and forth on this.  I know that RW have a different view of hanging on to the past and discussing it, and I understand how a simple lie in the beginning can be compounded as time goes on, but in the end I have to agree that, while not necessarily a red flag, it is an indicator that there needs to be a bit more time to learn about each other.  If you choose to go forward, you're going to have a long life together, and to give her the impression that withholding necessary information is easily forgivable is not a good thing.

Playing those types of games is about as immoral as it gets.

Let's look at some of your comments just for fun.

"You obviously and clearly apply a standard of moral *relativism* to FSUW to explain away and justify inappropriate behavior. You whitewash it. WHICH IS TERRIBLE ADVICE TO NEWBIES -  or anyone for that matter."  I've tried to explain this but you haven't understood.  First, the definition of innappropriate behavior is indeed relative.  We have seen many times that your idea of inappropriate is quite different from others here.  We're all entitled to our own definition.  I do not try to justify or explain away inappropriate behavior when I believe it is inappropriate.  What I have often done, and been shot down for doing it was to try to help people understand the thinking behind the behavior, which for RW can be quite different. Just because I claim to understand the behavior doesn't mean I condone it.  It seems I've said this several times before.

"And then you apply a completely different static moral standard to WM - classic example being Pike. Note: nowhere do you attempt to apply any standard to Pike's women - another inconsistency."  I didn't apply any standard at all to Pike's women.  The post was by and about Pike.  I knew nothing about these women other than what Pike chose to write and they had no opportunity to explain themselves as Pike did.  I had no business judging them.

"Hey, if I wanted to apply a static standard to you I could scream "fornicator" - you lived with your wife for two years out of wedlock!"
All those who are fornicators on this forum please stand up!  Sorry WmGO, but I think you're the only one still sitting down.

"And in the midst of all the Pike TR hullaboo you post a new thread of a very explicit nature about what you have found inside a women's orifices in the emergency room!!! Totally inconsistent!"  My post was not "very explicit".  In fact I took great pains to leave out the graphic details.  You don't seem to have a problem with the post about the lightbulb in another orifice.  I guess we differ about which orifice is more disgusting.

Now let's have fun with your list (By the way, I'm extremely flattered that you think my life is so interesting to have studied it in such great detail.  But please, when people tell you to go get a life, they don't mean mine!)

1. Married the first FSUW you ever met.  This is a bad thing?  We've been together for 4 years now so I obviously did something right.  I've met hundreds of FSUW since and stil think I made an excellent decision.  And how many FSUW have you met?  And how many have you married?

2. She asked for a substantial sum of money before you even met. True, but at that point we had been corresponding for 7 months.  I haven't recommended to anyone to do the same. I knew the risk, weighed it based on what I knew about her and sent the money.  It was small potatoes to me. And guess what?  It was used for exactly the purpose she said, which was to provide heat in her home for her and her daughter. I would have felt like a complete cad if I had refused and later learned they had suffered because of it, whether I ended up with her or not.

3. Had to move to Ukraine to get her to marry you.  Now this one borders on an insult.  I'm sure if I had brought her to the US you would be saying that I had to bring her to the US to get her to marry me.  We could have done it either way and it was our joint decision for me to move there.  Do you say the same about the others here who live in the FSU?  Guess what!  You just insulted a large group of the members here.

4. She dishonestly withheld important information that would ordinarily be a deal breaker - and you just brushed it aside when you found out.   Did I say anywhere that I just brushed it away?  I did exactly what I advised DKMM to do if he wanted to continue with the relationship, and that was to take more time and get to know her better.  Like you said before, I lived with her for 2 years before we got married.  That was enough time to know her true character and that her mistakes were abberations, not her norm.

5. You have posted that "all Americans are shallow".  Please show me this quote.  I couldn't find it. I know I specifically try to avoid using the word "all" when describing any group of people.  I will say that in my opinion there is more "soul" in the FSU, and I have stated this.  I have also stated that Americans place too much of a priority n money and material things and not enough on time.  That's been my experience. We read many descriptions here of FSUW being shallow and you don't have a problem with that?

6. You have posted that the only reason Americans are very generous is because they have a guilty conscience about being wealthy.  I never said it was the only reason.  Be careful with how you quote me.  The fact is, though, that many psychologists and other schoars recognize this as a significant factor.  If you want to read about some Americans agonizing over their guilt at having so much, check out this link: http://ask.metafilter.com/53864/How-do-you-stop-feeling-guilty-for-having-what-you-have

7. You posted that there is nothing wrong with bribery in FSU - it is just supplemental income for better government service.  I never said there was nothing wrong with it.  You are misquoting me again.  I tried to explain the FSU thinking about it and reasons they give for justifying it themselves.

8. You  have posted that an FSUW taking advantage of a WM's generosity by lying about the costs is the same thing as a seller in a market charging the foreignor a higher price than a local. Again, I was trying to put some Russian thinking into a context that WM might understand.  I admitted it was a poor example but was the best I could do. It all boils down to the fact that you are so closed minded and unwilliing to accept that the thought patterns are different in another country that I find it impossible to explain it to you.  As others have said, it says a lot about why you still don't have a FSU wife and why your chances aren't good. You just aren't going to find a FSUW that thinks like you do and none are going to conform to your way of thinking.

Now if there is still something that is not clear to you, please let me know and I'll try to type more slowly.

[Sohkay]

Scott, WmGO,

This thread is about DKMM's situation.

Please take your rants elsewhere.

[ScottinCrimea]

Sohkay,  I agree and apologize even though I wasn't the one who initiated it.  I should have just taken WmGO aside and given him a few swipes with the cluebat.  Prior to this I was trying to offer DKMM some advice based on my own experiences.  I wasn't expecting to be attacked for it.  Let's get back to the purpose of the thread.

[acrzybear]

Sorry, but I disagree BC, Lying is lying, period & if you are naive enough to think they only lied once you are truly naive.

The more they lie the easier it gets. Lying is not a cultural thing, nor is it a mechanism for hiding a painful subject. It is what it is DECIET!! Plain & simple.

Trust & Respect are earned, not given & Lies are not on the road to Trust & Respect, they go to an entirely different town!!

The quotes from Richard are right on point, As  Police Officer/Sergeant I will tell you from experience the 95% of the domestic fights I respond to (verbal or physical) are a result of no communication and no trust.  As a man there are certain things in life I do not tolerate from anyone (just ask my Officers) much less a person I "love" and that is lying, dishonesty, untruthfullness etc... whatever you want to call it.

  From 12 years experience I can tell you that when a persons first instinct is to lie about something minor/trivial then there is no way you can trust them for anything.  I would consider lying about a previous marriage to big a HUGE red flag and I would tell her it's been fun and have a nice life, but under no circumstances will I compromise my principles.

But that just me, some folks are content with what I call the Clinton policy- "Don't ask, don't tell"