Houston we have a problem

[catzenmouse]

She says she will support herself even without a job? Doesn't that make you wonder?  Women have an advantage over us guys in this area.  They always have something they can sell if they choose.

While I can agree with much of what you wrote this, IMO, was a low blow/cheap shot. There are many ways that she can support herself aside from what you alluded to.

Ken

[William3rd]

I agree with I/O. What has been related in all this is a woman desperate to bail on her country, willing to lie, or do whatever it takes.

Knighthood is long gone. And so should be the white knights.

You wouldnt do business with a liar or leave your money with one, so why on earth would you marry one?

And now comes a familiar refrain- cultural differences? BULL-oney. Lack of Understanding? BULL-shitsky.

She only came clean because she would have been caught and she knew it.

All the men that have been burned before leave their warnings for you but somehow you beleive that THIS case is DIFFERENT.

It isnt.

[Gator]

Gosh I/O,

She says she will support herself even without a job? Doesn't that make you wonder?  Women have an advantage over us guys in this area.  They always have something they can sell if they choose.

Last week another man suggested that a member's wife could be a prostitute.  twice in a week is too much for me.  My ex-fiancee described Aussie men as village men, and I laughed it off.  It is very possible that she is correct.   What gives you the right to speak in such a vile manner?  What good does it do.

DKMM, I assume you were kidding about borrowing money for the trip and ring and said that to her to make sure she was not a golddigger.  

I think some men have a fixation about complete truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.  Your continuing to post here will not assuage their opinion about your woman.   You have enough input about RW mentality, so why hang around here for more abuse?

Personally, I think you need to disappear for a month or two from the Board while you resolve this.   And I suggest you discuss it with your family (and surely you have one or two friends who are not judgmental and could help).  

This woman means so much to you now.  See how you feel one month from now, and then maybe take that trip to have a "Come to Jesus" revival with her.  See how her feelings change.

To check your attitude, what do you now feel towards the first RW (Cancun woman)?  She has stayed with you and has not taken up with another man.  These are clues to understand yourself.  

[Gator]

DKMM,

One final thought.  And this is an unkind comment.

You seem intelligent and responsible, and would seemingly want your wife to be the same.  I question the intelligence and responsibility of someone to alter the facts for something that would eventually be scrutinized.  If you are seeking a partner, this is a terrible start.

I think men when making the comment to dump her say this because they know themselves well.  They know that they would probaly never forget this betrayal of trust.  It would eat at them and haunt the relationship.  Are you the type of man who can forgive and forget?  Or would this nag at you, inhibiting the mental intimacy needed between a husband and wife?

[BillyB]

DKMM, 

Since you're open to opinions and seem to handle the criticism in good spirits, I will offer some more. You're still young and I personally think you wasted too much time on that Estonian girl in the past. One of your weaknesses may be your judgement on when to hold and when to fold with women. Correcting that fact will be to your benefit.


I think most men here have been tolerant to women in the past but from experience, one red flag from their woman they ignored has led to bitter divorce/breakup. They have valid reasons for their thoughts and they don't want you to learn the hard way. They have a "better safe than sorry" motto.

You're ready to commit a good chunk of your life to marriage. I really hope things will work out for you but remember this saying "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

 

[BC]

Quote from: BC on Yesterday at 20:50:31

I have noted the 'no tolerance' attitude expressed by many members here and agree that this would be proper thinking in their country..

And........where would they ultimately live when they are together? BC, I understand exactly where you are comming from and I, even during travels have noted the same thing, hence my intolerance of many aspects of some other cultures.  They have nothing of use nor gain to me and therefore I choose and can afford to avoid and ignore them.

This is not casual slip of the tongue.  It was, regardless of what we don't know, as reported by the author, a bare faced lie on a very important subject. Values generate such actions and there is probably a half dozen basic values which need to concur for a relationship to survive.  In my view, truthfulness is number one.  If you can't rely on the other telling you the truth, you can't completely rely on anything about them.

There ain't nothin' grey about this one.  IMO she crossed a line which can only be crossed once in any relationship.  There is no comming back from the other side of that line. If one crosses it, it can only be on the way out the door so to say.

I/O,

It's all a part of adjustment, not only to a new country but a new partner from a different culture as well.  It is not an easy task, we are not born with a bunch of dip switches in the back of our heads that can be set.  There are also no 'absolutes'.  I have practically lived my whole life 'adjusting' and learning to embrace one culture or the other.  Probably the most difficult adjustment I could envision would be living in the country I was born in.

Whatever your values are, your 'my way or highway' attitude will present huge, if not insurmountable hurdles.  Don't forget that the 'adjustment period' applies to both parties involved.  I don't know how far along you are with your relationship but do tell us how things go..

Don't construe my words as 'all systems go for blast-off'.. I do think DKMM is suffering a bit of 'limmer shimmer' and needs to overcome this before making a commitment to flight. 

I'm happy to answer more questions even though we have personally moved beyond this in our relationship.

.........

BC interesting comments.  She told me that she wants to marry in a church which involves more responsibilities such as a life long commitment that you speak of.  I feel the same way.  We plan to raise a family in a church too, even though we both don't go to one at the current time (sounds strange I know).  She only did the ZAGS thing in the past and does not want just a civil marriage to me.

My spidey sense is on full bore and I'm looking for anything else suspicious but I sense nothing so far.  And I always had this feeling she was hiding something from the very beginning too, so maybe that was just her one big thing and that's it.

DKMM,

The last paragraphs in your post do contradict your intro. I would think that 'moving on'  requires clarification.. -and that doesn't seem to be the case.. Awful big 'maybe' that wouldn't hack it even in my book.. Those first impressions really need to be fully resolved..

Also, if her family is pissed and your folks a good bit in the dark, what are you doing about that?.. Believe me, without support from the folks at home and abroad the road can get very steep very quickly.. even vertical.

50K net worth? hmm.. I easily  blew that figure within two years.. I do hope your disposable monthly income is a considerable amount..  Is it possible  that you are trying to push things forward as quickly as possible due to financial constraints?

It does seem that the more you reveal, the more questions arise so please do continue..

[DKMM]

Ahh well its hard to discuss such detailed situations when you don't know all the facts of the people being discussed isn't it?   As a good friend from here told me, when you don't have all the facts you imagine things.  Some of us are very cautious and imagine bad things. 

To help alliviate the shortage of information (and I'm bored waiting for my photos to upload anyway...) I present some more info:

I/O she has a job now.  I mentioned before, she started it 2 days ago.  She nearly got fired the first day because she was a complete wreck over our "situation".  After many hours of talks and discussion the next day she returned to work much better off and in good spirits.  The goal in her mind is to work at this job until she comes over and it pays pretty well so she will pay all her own costs and even save some for a new life here.

Sure I may seem poor, but at 29 with a positive net worth and 5k a month I'm heading in the right direction.  (only 2.5 years out of grad school)  My parents are there for me though and that is backed up by a mid 7 figure net worth.  I help them manage their fortune and have made them almost a million dollars in the process.  I can keep doing what I'm doing with RW as much as I want at least financially speaking.  I won't have to work past 50...  My E knows everything about my situation except the family part. 

Gator, yes I said those things and some others because I have to scare away the golddiggers.  I always do that.  My dear cancun RW would probably marry me if I had it for her but I don't.  E is my girl.  She really did think she could just hide it and never have to mention it happened.  Clearly she wasn't able to though.  As far as me letting it go, that is out of my control really.  It will wither go away or it won't but believe me, I'm not nearly as upset about it as I used to be and its only been 2 days.

If I can be reconcilitory towards Ken and others, I realize now that some of this is my fault because I proposed too soon when we both weren't ready.  She said yes because she loves me but she wanted to get this out of the way first.

Billy, you speak truth.  I have always pursued women far past the time I should have.  But in my defense they do the same with me.  My Estonia girl just called me while I'm typing this in fact.  Thanks for the advice.

BC I mean I'm not talking about this situation with my girl anymore, that's how we are over it.  Of course my spidey sense is on high alert.  It will stay that way until it goes away on its own.  The 1st impressions I had were 2 months ago when we 1st met she seemed very skittish when I spoke of past relationships.  The dates she told me of doing this and that didn't always quite add up right and its because she was covering for being married to this guy.  I had a gut feeling something wasn't right but I thought we cleared it up on our trip but apparently this was the skeleton.  I don't feel anything else being hidden from me, but who knows.  I have time and I'm not rushing anything.

[Bluebell]

Interesting situation. We all know that lying is deliberate deception, by using false facts for personal gain. DKMM's fiancee used a false fact about her marital status right from the beginning, at filling in the form, to create false premises for her better chances on the marriage market. As we can see, she well succeeded. DKMM, in love, is more than willing to forgive this deception, will find excuses for it and will write it off as ''nobody is perfect''. Which is true, nobody is perfect.

As other people already said before me, it is more important to know what is behind this lie than the lying act itself. Why she felt necessary to hide such an important fact as being previously married? Was her previous marriage indeed so bad, such a big mistake in her life, that it has to be hidden? Maybe she is even ashamed by it? If so, why, and what was her role in it? Is she mature enough to take her responsability for her own actions, even if they cast an unfavourable light on her? What was so painful or shameful in that marriage that she has to defend herself by denying it, lying about it? These are just a few of the questions DKMM you will have to find out the answer for them by yourself. Another thing is to understand her personality very clearly. One lie follows the other, first a small lie, then a bigger one, and so on, until we arrive to really big lies. Children already lie, it is not that an adult will just start to lie all of a sudden.

I am not saying your fiancee is bad. But you have to be aware that you are dealing with a person who has learned, probably already in her childhood, that by lying she can defend herself in situations which otherwise would be too painful/shameful for her, she can get some personal gain and can avoid embarassing situations. As Jb said, she is messing with your mind. And as Arzybear said, you can't trust a person whose first instinct is to lie, because distorting the truth is already a well-operating self-defending mechanism for him/her, and what will be his/her gain, it will be your loss.

[I/O]

was a low blow/cheap shot.

Perhaps, but not designed to be low. Designed to shake and inspire to think of all possabilities.
 

My ex-fiancee described Aussie men as village men, and I laughed it off.  It is very possible that she is correct.   What gives you the right to speak in such a vile manner?  What good does it do.

Gator: Note, my comment didn't say she IS a...........it suggested he should consider all possabilities when involved with someone who has lied. You've jumped to conclusions and thereby all but suggested it is not a possability.  Under the circumstances, I suggest to do that is being something of an ostrich.

Whatever your values are, your 'my way or highway' attitude will present huge, if not insurmountable hurdles.

BC: Some Values are non negotiable. You are absolutely correct, the further we cross borders the more grey some things become. Exactly why I said some cultures. IMO the example in this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with culture.
 

at 29 with a positive net worth and 5k a month I'm heading in the right direction.

DKMM: My point was, perhaps you are better doing just that for a while. At 29 you have the world at your feet. A little consolidation first would take a lot of pressure off in other areas.  Further, it would allow a lot more face time before taking any jumps into the unkown, which IMO as a result of recent events are a very big unknown.

I/O 
 

[CaptB]

DKMM,

My appologies if I missed it. You made a comment that your girl may have hidden the fact about the divorce because 'you" were looking for someone who was not previously married. It was stated though.......that this omision of a previous marriage was in her ( agency/website ?) "profile". If it was already stated she was unmarried in her "profile"........then that omits the reason for the deceit.......was because "you" stated your preference for someone unmarried. In other words the deception was listed in her profile......prior to you finding each other.

I dated a Doc in Moscow.....named "E".......who listed "one divorce" in her profile. On the first evening.....of my first trip......we discussed many things. I spoke strongly of being upfront about everything......and that deceit would be a deal-breaker. She quickly said she had a brief six-month "second marriage".......but that it meant nothing (??????).......which is why she chose not to list it in her profile. I then told her with our nearly 75+ hours of converstions on the phone, before meeting, that she had ample opportunity to clarrify her past. I told this is something that should had been brought to my attention prior to my making a trip to meet her.
Drama queen time......"she" is now offended.......and headed for the door. I told her I had just come over 5,000 miles to meet her......the least she could do was let me finish my thoughts. I told her point-blank......no matter how you slice it......it was a lie. To say it was "nothing"....does not give me confidence in how seriously one takes "any" marriage. In the long-run.....it turned-out to be a glimpse into the future. I eventually broke it off......we went our separate ways.

My first RW was gorgeous, smart, funny, affectionate, playfull, adventurous, good mother.....and other good qualities. But after three trips.....I knew there were a few things that should be different......were not. Many guys would have proceeded anyway. It did not help that her daughter and I had a developed a bond. It was a very tough decission.....but in my gut I knew I had to break-off the relationship. I was right......there were never any second thoughts......when I met my future wife.

Someone made a comment about the commitment factor of "Zags" marriages being something "less"......than having a marriage in an Orthodox church............utter nonsense! I won't have a debate about religion.....how I practice religion is "personal". I have met too many hipocrites in my lifetime.....who attended church every Sunday (for the record...I do not).........and some of the most caring folks (in regards to other human beings)......who never set foot in a church. My wife and I were married in a Zags ceremony. It very much had the feeling of a church wedding. Nice building and marriage hall......beautiful flowers......nice Zags officials. My friend jb....also had a Zags wedding......very nice ceremony. Not the sterile...starchy....bland....."Sovietesque style" ceremony......you "thought" it would be. I have been to enough $20,000+ weddings......which later ended in divorce.....to know that all the "pomp and circumstance".....and fancy trappings......will not guarantee......"success". Only the "commitment" between the two indiduals......will give you a shot at success. For the record.........the two best weddings I ever attended...regardless of "cost".....was jb's wedding.......and my own. Intimate.....around 20 people......and just a wonderful time. A lot of fun......a lot of memories. Jb and Etna did have an Orthodox ceremony after here arrival here in the US. If my wife wants to renew vows in an Orthox ceremony.....I'm amenable to that...also.


Capt B

[Mir]

She says she will support herself even without a job? Doesn't that make you wonder?  Women have an advantage over us guys in this area.  They always have something they can sell if they choose

Well all women have the same advantage so I guess you will include the woman/women dear to you in the same category? (if they need to and if they chose)

[BC]

Someone made a comment about the commitment factor of "Zags" marriages being something "less"......than having a marriage in an Orthodox church............utter nonsense! I won't have a debate about religion.....how I practice religion is "personal". I have met too many hipocrites in my lifetime.....who attended church every Sunday (for the record...I do not).........and some of the most caring folks (in regards to other human beings)......who never set foot in a church. My wife and I were married in a Zags ceremony. It very much had the feeling of a church wedding. Nice building and marriage hall......beautiful flowers......nice Zags officials. My friend jb....also had a Zags wedding......very nice ceremony. Not the sterile...starchy....bland....."Sovietesque style" ceremony......you "thought" it would be. I have been to enough $20,000+ weddings......which later ended in divorce.....to know that all the "pomp and circumstance".....and fancy trappings......will not guarantee......"success". Only the "commitment" between the two indiduals......will give you a shot at success. For the record.........the two best weddings I ever attended...regardless of "cost".....was jb's wedding.......and my own. Intimate.....around 20 people......and just a wonderful time. A lot of fun......a lot of memories. Jb and Etna did have an Orthodox ceremony after here arrival here in the US. If my wife wants to renew vows in an Orthox ceremony.....I'm amenable to that...also.


Capt B

Capt B,

That was me  http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5240.msg91431#msg91431

Here I was describing a hypothetical example with an appropriate disclaimer about some possible thought processes that might have been going on at the time..  Certainly not attempting to degrade the value of any ceremony, religious or not.  I also did not intend to open ANY kind of religious discourse.

I'm sorry you took it that way.

I suggest you take another look at my post.  Keep in mind that there is no way in hell I or anyone else can write something about a complex subject in a manner that precludes anyone from misinterpreting what is really meant.

I recommend a wee bit of 'leeway' while reading posts. Instead of joust, get the gist.

[I/O]

Well all women have the same advantage so I guess you will include the woman/women dear to you in the same category? (if they need to and if they chose)

Absolutely...!!!  I remained circumspect for a very long time for this exact reason.  I live on reality street. Yet another arguement in favour of spending a goodly amount of time on "Her patch" and getting to know her family, friends and environment.  Who was it said, "Show me his friend and I will show you the man"? Meeting and learning about a lady is not disssimilar IMO.

I/O

[MaxxumUSA]

Absolutely...!!!  I remained circumspect for a very long time for this exact reason.  I live on reality street. Yet another arguement in favour of spending a goodly amount of time on "Her patch" and getting to know her family, friends and environment.  Who was it said, "Show me his friend and I will show you the man"? Meeting and learning about a lady is not disssimilar IMO.

I/O

I agree...

When I first started this process I was a bit naive.  I was thinking - Go, meet, get engaged, bring her to USA and live happily ever after.  LMAO.

Thank goodness I have the time to visit more than that first visit.  Three weeks in April was my second visit.  We learned SO much about each other - and mostly learned that we were a great match.

This time I am week two of my third visit.  While we are both still the same people we are opening up more and more.  Like onions removing the layers.

This trip was sort of the clincher in my mind.  Any uneasiness or nervousness (not that I had much) about this being the right woman for me is now gone.  We enjoy each other very much.  I can't recall having a woman that loves me this much and also able to show it in the right way.  She knows me very well.

Having said that...  There are some things we are discovering about each other that is not all roses and tulips.  But...  this is who  we are and we are dealing with it just fine.  And...  YES!  I totally agree - the visits should be done on her patch.  I enjoy Elena's friends and family very much.  And also it is nice to know her more in some social environments when her family and friends are not around.

[Gator]

Capt B

Your Moscow Doc is a classic example that I think is not rare in the FSU.   And it presents a model for camparing DKMM's woman.

Your RW does not disclose the full truth, attempts to dismiss it as "nothing", shows no remorse, and eventually blames you for being unreasonable.  She even  punctuates it with a "stage exit" - expecting you to come rushing after her.  Such behavior defines someone who would not change - I hope you told her, "Do not let the door hit you in your big ass."

DKMM's woman is different in many positive ways.  After admitting to the lie, she does not dismiss it as trivial, she shows remorse, does not blame DKMM, and does not exit (although offering to return the ring could be drama or could be remorse).

That is why I think DKMM should not dump her, not now at least.  he still must do much more due diligence, something that was not possible in the short time together.  One problem - it is difficult to do due diligence when you are already in love with the deal.  DKMM needs to enter the reevaluation period with the thought that the deal is "dead" unless some compelling evidence convinces him otherwise. 

[Gator]

I/O,

Your elaboration is better (or at least not as bad); some seasoning was needed to make it palatable.  Not only do I understand your point,  you made some other good points.  Not bad for a "village man".   

[KenC]

Sorry Gator,
Lying has nothing to do with "culture" and everything to do with "character."  Any person of any culture that possesses the ability to look someone on the eyes and lie through their teeth (regardless of circumstances) is of low character.  Again, this was not an omission of facts or a misunderstanding, but a blatant lie to serve a specific purpose of deceit.  I/O's remarks were harsh and even I was taken aback by them originally.  The more I think about it, they were right on target.  If a person exhibits low character, there is no reason not to expect more examples to soon follow.
KenC

[Sohkay]

KenC,

It's all a risk isn't it. A chance. And forgive my understatement, but we get nowhere without taking chances.

I'm not sensing here that DK is a Dave24. Just the opposite. For a 29 year old, he's a taking a reasoned approach to this, and I think he's maturing in the process.

In some situations, in many perhaps, engaging in a lie is a nonnegotiable, unacceptable event that calls for termination of the relationship. But we should remember that one size does not fit all.

Based on what we know, I believe he is playing this correctly. I do believe his soft underbelly is that maybe he isn't aware of the fact that during the initial stages of a romantic relationship (the first 6 months or so), the human brain produces increased levels of endorphins, working on the brain as heroin might. Then after the first few months, the endorphins return to their average levels and we get back to reality. He's in the romantic phase of the relationship and that is NOT the time to decide on marriage.

We should also remember something from our own relationships. We know that when a couple successfully navigate these stupid and hurtful events that arise, they can come out on the other side with a strengthened relationship and the fortitude to face and resolve the problems that might arise in the future. In other words, it's possible that they could turn this experience into something that will ultimately benefit them.

I think now that his decision is made, and should he continue to seek our counsel, that we should be sure to encourage him to take his time, get more information, get to know her better and learn whether her lie was was an isolated event of extreme human stupidity (of which we are all capable of at some point in our lives) or an ingrained part of her personality which is fatal to the development of a healthy love relationship.

If DK is smart, his attitude right now should be, "We will see."

[batman]

DKMM,

I recently had a similar situation with a non-RW girl. She lied to me from fear of losing me about something which I would have forgiven anyway. She came out with it a week of being together.

What actually ruined the relationship a few months later was her unwillingness to communicate problems going on in her head and I still suspect that she withheld newer things.

Being in your situation now I would look at her willingness to ORIGINATE confessions... not having to be questioned until the truth comes out from now on.

If it is her operating basis in life to withhold her transgressions  as much as possible then it is pretty much guaranteed she would do it again. But I can not make that judgement about her. I think only you can since you have observed her the most and will continue to observe her.

It's a red flag for sure that she withheld the info... but people can change if they are willing to.

I hope it works out though.  

Let us know how you go.

[KenC]

KenC,

It's all a risk isn't it. A chance. And forgive my understatement, but we get nowhere without taking chances.

I'm not sensing here that DK is a Dave24. Just the opposite. For a 29 year old, he's a taking a reasoned approach to this, and I think he's maturing in the process.

In some situations, in many perhaps, engaging in a lie is a nonnegotiable, unacceptable event that calls for termination of the relationship. But we should remember that one size does not fit all.

Based on what we know, I believe he is playing this correctly. I do believe his soft underbelly is that maybe he isn't aware of the fact that during the initial stages of a romantic relationship (the first 6 months or so), the human brain produces increased levels of endorphins, working on the brain as heroin might. Then after the first few months, the endorphins return to their average levels and we get back to reality. He's in the romantic phase of the relationship and that is NOT the time to decide on marriage.

We should also remember something from our own relationships. We know that when a couple successfully navigate these stupid and hurtful events that arise, they can come out on the other side with a strengthened relationship and the fortitude to face and resolve the problems that might arise in the future. In other words, it's possible that they could turn this experience into something that will ultimately benefit them.

I think now that his decision is made, and should he continue to seek our counsel, that we should be sure to encourage him to take his time, get more information, get to know her better and learn whether her lie was was an isolated event of extreme human stupidity (of which we are all capable of at some point in our lives) or an ingrained part of her personality which is fatal to the development of a healthy love relationship.

If DK is smart, his attitude right now should be, "We will see."

Sohkay,
Any marriage has risks, I agree, but one should IMO reduce those risks down to a practical conclusion that your love for the other person is worth the risk involved.  I maintain, that after buying an engagement ring for a woman that DKMM had spent only a few hours with, that his idea of "risk management" is completely different than mine.  Again IMO he is not taking the concept of matrimony very seriously at all.  This will bite him in the ass sooner or later.  It is not a "reasoned approach" in any way.

I don't wish him any ill will in any way, but I also think he is jumping into a pool of water where he has no idea how deep it is.  Those "closed head" injuries can be a killer.
KenC

[KenC]

DKMM,

I recently had a similar situation with a non-RW girl. She lied to me from fear of losing me about something which I would have forgiven anyway. She came out with it a week of being together.

What actually ruined the relationship a few months later was her unwillingness to communicate problems going on in her head and I still suspect that she withheld newer things.

Being in your situation now I would look at her willingness to ORIGINATE confessions... not having to be questioned until the truth comes out from now on.

If it is her operating basis in life to withhold her transgressions  as much as possible then it is pretty much guaranteed she would do it again. But I can not make that judgement about her. I think only you can since you have observed her the most and will continue to observe her.

It's a red flag for sure that she withheld the info... but people can change if they are willing to.

I hope it works out though.  

Let us know how you go.

Batman,
Respectfully, your experience in this area is not relevant because you have yet to go and meet  RW face to face.  Internet "relationships" are not relevant, sorry.
KenC

[William3rd]

KenC- Totally agree with your assessments on this issue. I see this as a minor squall giving the first warning of the hurricane yet to come.

[catzenmouse]

I/O,

 Thanks for elaborating on your thought. Taken in this context I respectfully withdraw my low blow comment.

 I also see two very good points being made by Sohkay and by KenC. While I too feel that the ring issue was very badly thought out in the context of DKMN's time in the relationship I hope that he can step back far enough now to see if this "lie" is a deal breaker and a habit on her part or if it is an isolated incident brought out through misguided thinking.

 As to misguided thinking in general I think that they both have been doing a good deal of that so far. If that trend continues there will be a very ugly crash and burn in their future.

FWIW,
 Ken

[ScottinCrimea]

At the risk of having some here belittle a situation that is quite personal to myself and to my wife, I'm going to share a few things that give me a bit of a different perspective on things.  My wife was married and divorced before she met me and her first husband died about three years before we met.  While she never hid this from me, she was extremely evasive and in some ways deceptive about him and the relationship.  For the most part she refused to even discuss it, saying she didn't like to talk about the past.  Even her parents were very evasive about it, even in the face of specific questions.  At times I would hear little pieces, but only as it applied to specific situations or events.  Of course my mind was playing all kinds of tricks on me, assuming the worst. One evening I essentially forced her into a discussion about him and what had happened.  By the time it was over, she was literally in a fetal position sobbing on the floor.  I could never have imagined the trauma, both physically and emotionally that he had caused her.  While it was a tremendous help in understanding much about her, and did bring us closer together, I felt like I had violated her.  Over time, she has been able to discuss things more and put it behind her, but I have never since brought up the subject on my own.  I just don't need to know that bad.  Had she lied to me?  In some cases yes.  Had she been deceitful and not straight with me?  With regards to her previous marriage, yes.  Do I think her actions were unforgiveable and cause for leaving her?  Absolutely not. If I had felt, like some here, that any deceipt is unforgiveable and a sign of low character, I would have missed out on a relationship with an incredible, loving woman who has the highest character of anyone I know.

Were her parents displaying low character by protecting their daughter by not discussing it with me?  I think quite the opposite.

So if any of you have been wondering why I am not so black and white about this idea, well now you know.

[batman]

Batman,
Respectfully, your experience in this area is not relevant because you have yet to go and meet  RW face to face.  Internet "relationships" are not relevant, sorry.
KenC

KenC,
Respectfully, telling someone their comment is not relevent when it is, is not the least bit respectful.

My example given was not over the net. And the situation is not the least bit particular only to FSU women. I've seen and heard the same sort of situation from numerous people and countries. 

Thanks,