Experiences with American women -- a question from jen

[sensei]

Hi all,
This is my very first post on this board. I had been following this topic with great interest so I decided to reply to Jen's questions.

Please understand that my answers to Jen's questions are not meant to bash AW. I do have a few AW friends that I am proud to say that they are genuine human beings without the B.S., like the "other" AW I knew or met over the years. Remember, this is not to start a flame war.

--was a dissatisfaction with American women...the key thing that motivated you to begin searching abroad?

Yes, absolutely.

--if so, how would you describe that dissatisfaction?

There are many way to describe "dissatisfaction" so I'll go with the most common themes that I detected through my experience dealing with AW, their values and opinions:

• very career-oriented, which took priority over family
• very masculine and demanded equality
• selfish with unrealistic expectations in a dream world
• emotional baggage
• very negative (it can mean many things: negative attitude, incessant whining, stuck-up (inferiority complex), etc.)
• status, power, sense of entitlement, sense of fulfillment, sense of self-purpose
• certain "needs" had to be met (materials, finer things in life, etc.)
• bitter and p*ssed off in the working world for less pay
• look at a guy with "what" he has (hot body, money, full hair on his head, etc.) instead of "who" he is (qualities, personality, characteristics, etc.)
• an AW knows that using her "beauty" will give them tremendous "power" and they know how to use it by getting what they want in taking advantage of an AM (i.e., men have a weakness - "sex sells")

--What is the central problem as you see it?
--why do you think these problems exist? 

One word: "equality". By looking at women's history in our society, "femininity" was replaced with "masculinity"; "raising a family" was replaced with career and education; "happiness" was replaced with money, status (power).

--Do you think that feminism is responsible for these problems, as I have often seen discussed, or something else? 

Yes, I think it may have to do with the problems in our society. Again, one will have to analyze the women's history in this country because that is where one will find the answers to that question.

--If so, what do you think "feminism" means or includes?

Personally, this is a very generic question because "feminism" can mean many things: "liberal feminism", "radical feminism", or "socialist feminism".

(I took "Women's History" in college years ago so my memory is vagued.

In my opinion, I look at "feminism" based on social, cultural and political movements and their philosophies in the United States where AF (American Feminists) and/or AW are focused on some kind of practices and/or issues in regarding to our country's cultural, political, and economic situation. But I think most of the attention is focused on inequalities or discrimination against AW.

However, over the years, there are "political issues" that are popping up: sexual harassment, abortion, domestic violence, safe sex (i.e., birth pills), same-sex marriage, etc.

In conclusion, I made a choice in not wanting to marry an AW when I was in my late 20's. I just don't waste my time with them.  As a 41 year old half-Austrian/half-Russian-American who was raised in a very family-oriented household, I am very glad that my folks raised me well. When you look at the divorce rate in America, it is quite staggering - somewhere in the high 60%'s! I knew of a lot of people that were divorced due to marriages being described as "miserable". I look at my folks' marriage, 54 years and still counting. Sadly, you don't see that in this country anymore.

On a personal note, I will be making my very first trip to Ukraine this September to meet 4 different Russian/Ukrainian ladies that I have been corresponding with in the past 8 months via a reputable agency. Why RUW? I know that foreign ladies are very feminine and sexy so they are not afraid to express themselves. They are very genuine and believe in commitment. Believe in family-oriented and are very hard-working due to their country's struggles and problems. They want to create a family with a suitable man that is worthy and reliable. I believe they don't look at a man's net worth - i.e., looking for a man for who he is, not what he is. Those are some of the qualities that I like in a foreign woman.

One last thing...I believe most Western men in today's modern society are evolved and they truly believe in the equal, or "50/50" system. I noticed that most of us (Western men) are dismayed and disappointed by the lack of sincerity and lack of appreciation of AW.

If I open a door for a Russian/Ukrainian Woman, she will appreciate it. A feminine lady doesn't have to say "thank you". After all, a man should be a gentleman to open the door for lady who is feminine!

But if I open the door for an AW, she will say "thank you". Or vice versa. I would call this her "masculine trait". This is messed up, in my opinion, especially if an AW open the door for the men!

Anyhow...I apologize for the long post.
~ sensei

[Muj]

Muj,
Why don't you read this thread and the other one started by Jen before you ask such stupid questions?
KenC

KenC
Good one Ken, you finally caught up to me.  A sophisticated responder provides a link or a quote.  Expectations of Ken

[Zhena]

Ken C,
while I kinda finding some of your points of view correct,your mania of greatness is just ridiculous. Who made you a judge here? Or you a supervisor? Why did you decide that you can insult the people who even didnt speak to you? My husband is pretty busy and doesnt sit online all day long and read all the topics,so he may miss some. I dont consider his questions stupid. So dont interfere and let Jen to answer if she will be so kind. Oki-doki?

[DKMM]

Sensei that's one for the archives to be sure.  I love that part about doors.  I cringe now when I see dumb AW go "thank you!" and smile a big dopey smile when I hold the door for them. 

I still remember the first time I went to a store with a RW and she just stood there in front of the door waiting for something to happen.  I was so nervous it took a while for me to figure it out...

[Simoni]

Sensei that's one for the archives to be sure.  I love that part about doors.  I cringe now when I see dumb AW go "thank you!" and smile a big dopey smile when I hold the door for them. 

I still remember the first time I went to a store with a RW and she just stood there in front of the door waiting for something to happen.  I was so nervous it took a while for me to figure it out...

The last time I opened a door for a professional American woman was about 10 years ago.  This professional lady lectured me for five minutes about how sexist that action was how demeaning it was to her.

I'm a polite guy and I opened doors for whomever I'm walking with-- male or female.  Now I don't open doors in a business environment for women.  Still do for men.

[KenC]

KenC
Good one Ken, you finally caught up to me.  A sophisticated responder provides a link or a quote.  Expectations of Ken

Muj,
I am not here to provide you with links because you are too lazy to read the thread.  When you interject yourself into a conversation, maybe you should know what that conversation is about.  You shouldn't expect everyone to go through a review of what has already been said just because you came into the conversation at midpoint.  Every question you asked has been asked and answered.

If you had taken the time to read, you would have known that jen not only traveled to Russia, but lived there for some time.  To take a challenging tone to her in this area, is, well foolish.
KenC

[KenC]

Ken C,
while I kinda finding some of your points of view correct,your mania of greatness is just ridiculous. Who made you a judge here? Or you a supervisor? Why did you decide that you can insult the people who even didnt speak to you? My husband is pretty busy and doesnt sit online all day long and read all the topics,so he may miss some. I dont consider his questions stupid. So dont interfere and let Jen to answer if she will be so kind. Oki-doki?

Zhena,
If your hubby is too busy to keep up with the flow of information that has already been posted why should the group stop and review things already said?  The questions were not stupid the first time they were asked. jen has answered every question he asked.  Why is it her burden to answer them again and not your husband's responsibility to just read the thread and understand what has been said before interjecting himself (in a challenging way I might add) into the conversation?  There is a saying that has been credited to Ben Franklin:  "It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt".
KenC

[groovlstk]

I believe they don't look at a man's net worth - i.e., looking for a man for who he is, not what he is. Those are some of the qualities that I like in a foreign woman.

In my experience this is yet another agency fallacy. You may find an FSU woman who will love you for what you are rather than what you're worth, but such women are no less common there than here.

[Admin]

Hey Y'all,

No need for any tensions (please).

Muj, jen made her initial introduction in the Introductions forum, and she explained a great deal about her background and intent here at RWD. Here is a link to her introduction thread -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5289.0.

- Dan

[ScottinCrimea]

Dan, I think Muj's point is that his question was directed to jen and it was hers to reply to.  No need for someone else to jump all over him with insults.

[MaxxumUSA]

In my experience this is yet another agency fallacy. You may find an FSU woman who will love you for what you are rather than what you're worth, but such women are no less common there than here.

Hmmm...

I may have an odd point of view on this.  And many of my friends don't understand it.  Here's my deal...  I want a woman to not need to work.  No...  let me rephrase ...  My future wife will NOT need to work.  Now...  she may spend some of her free time working from home or part time volunteer work - but the amount of income she can make will not make much of a difference in our lifestyle.  If she needs to work to maintain her sanity then so be it.

My thought is pretty simple - I am old fashioned in this sense and I believe it is the mans duty to provide for the family.  With this belief I believe it is the woman's duty (In this type of relationship) to keep the house under control, care for the husband and children, and make sure the family is happy.  I am NOT suggesting that I want a slave in the home.  As a matter of fact I have housecleaners and all that.  I am suggesting that she should take a leadership role in the things that I lack interest for.  Such as remodelling home, decorating, creating a nice atmosphere...  stuff like this.

My experience with AW is that they are VERY hesitant to even consider not working.  The trust issue is huge.  I have told Elena many times that I consider it an honor that she will trust me to provide for her needs and wants.  This honor was never bestowed upon me with an AW.

My point being is that I read into your post an implication that AW and some RW might be gold diggers.  My experience has been opposite.  Most women I have dated are unwilling to give up their independence and let me provide for them.  Granted there HAVE been women that take one look at one of my toys and the smiles start...  those women don't stand a fleeting chance with me as I see through this immediately.

That's that...  I DON'T want a woman that has great ambitions to work 70 hours a week to make that $100k/year.  I want a woman that wants a good home life and family.  Weekends spent traveling and/or with friends and family.  Weeknights spent with simple outings or staying in.

I found when reading the profiles and now with three trips to FSU that this is NOT agency fallacy.  Many of these women - including my Elena - fit into exactly the lifestyle wants that I desire.  My Elena has told me it will be a big change for her to depend on me - but this has been her dream - to be a partner in a marriage with a good man.  If she needs to or wants to work - she will.

For the record she had no idea of my income until well after we got engaged.  Matter of fact never even asked until we were preparing for her K-1 interview, my last day of my last visit in July.  (Been unofficially engaged since Feb 6, and officially since April)

[KenC]

Maxxum,
I felt much the same as you do, but you have to be careful about a few things.  It is imperative that your wife have some activities outside the home.  She should develop her sense of self worth in some manner.  I was married for over 20 years and had the same set up as you explained.  When my ex wife reached the end of the child raising period of her life, she was lost with what to do with herself.  Even though I had always encouraged her to go to school. open a business or whatever, she choose not to.  After the kids grew to an age of independence, she drifted away and we divorced.

Just a word of caution for you.
KenC

[groovlstk]

I found when reading the profiles and now with three trips to FSU that this is NOT agency fallacy.  Many of these women - including my Elena - fit into exactly the lifestyle wants that I desire.  My Elena has told me it will be a big change for her to depend on me - but this has been her dream - to be a partner in a marriage with a good man.  If she needs to or wants to work - she will.

If you look through the thousands of profiles of FSU women on agency sites, many of the entries are so repetitive and cliched that it's obvious the women are told what to write to attract a Western suitor. C'mon guys, how many profiles have you cruised wherein women list their chief hobby as "shaping," who wish to make a "cozy home" for their husbands, who are "faithful, loyal, and affectionate." To judge FSU women based on their profiles is very risky, IMHO. The agency people are not stupid, from years of experience they know the general profile of their garden variety US client and I'm sure many counsel their women to write the things that will attract him.

[I/O]

Jen:  I read the paper you posted the link to in your intro thread and although you resort to the odd generalisation in that paper as is territorial in this whole discussion, I am of the opinon you have presented a far more balanced view than many have thus far.

As an Aussie who BTW dated a couple of American women years back, I doubt I'd bring much different perspective to the table than my American couterparts.  I will say though, I am fairly scathing in my view of the general quality of some of my countrymen I have seen involved in this process and for that matter their partners or intended partners also.

I would also suggest the opinions of most of the men participating on this board might be a skew towards, if not be at the higher end of the broader group of men involved in the whole international introductions/marriage pursuit. JMO.

Why did I get involved? Who knows? I've asked myself that question a million times and there is not really any one simple answer.  I was married to a classy local lady for 10 years and she probably exhibited all the qualities and more that her Russian counterparts would or perhaps even could. I have had plenty of local "dates" before and since and I am in no way critical of local women.  Certainly it would have been far easier to find a partner locally IF I had been seriously looking.

If I can distill my reasoning to perhaps one thing, it would be the fact that I have always had a facination with people from other countries. 

I have long associated with them, taught them in the sporting fields and been taught by them also.  As an Aussie, it is oh so easy to live in the bubble.  We have all we need and we really don't need to see or do much else.  My family and myself in particular have always been at pains to avoid becomming a victim of the temptation to shut off from the rest of the world.  My curiosity with somewhat unknown parts of the world was ultimately able to be indulged due to a certain chain of events and the freedom of time that provided.

My facination with people from other countries, opportunity to travel and understand, together with the communications opportunities provided by the internet caused a collision which was hopefully made in heaven.  Time will show.

Back to your paper.  I also feel there is far more to this whole thing than the "Consumer/Vendor" perception that many of the critics hold, notwithstanding, there is an element of that remaining and to think otherwise would be to avoid some reality.

I/O   

[MaxxumUSA]

Maxxum,
She should develop her sense of self worth in some manner.
Just a word of caution for you.
KenC

Thanks - well noted.  And it reminds me that me and Elena did discuss this.  She is a manicurist by trade - so she can work from home - OR she can start her own busines - OR she can work part time at a shop.  (Based on the conversation we had, and only IF she decides to work due to boredome.)

But...  I would be VERY upset if all of the sudden we have two young children and she decides to dedicate 6 days a week - 12-15 hours a day to start her own nail studio or something.  Leaving me or a nanny to deal with the children without her.  This was discussed fairly early in our relationship - and we both reinforced out beliefs with each other on this topic many times.  She has worked these type of hours for 11 years - since she was 20 years old.  It is a lot of work and I don't see how she keeps her sanity but she needs to work that hard in order to live a normal life in Russia.  In USA she will not need to do this.

Me and Elena seem to be on the exact same wavelength when it comes to the subject of her working.  We sort of left it open that she would work a little if she wants to.  But we both agree that there is much to care for at the home as well.

Groov...

The women that I have communicated with seemed very real and very sincere about their desires, and yes - they say those things in their profiles.  But it seems to have been true.  I'm not so sure who writes all the profiles.  OK...  I just called my Elena.  Her profile was on Elena's models.  I asked her if she wrote her profile.  She said that the worker from Elenas models helped her by posting the profile.  But Elena told her what to put, and the employee helped her with wording.  SOO...  maybe your are correct that the agencies and sites have an MO they go by.

Elena's profile is hidden so I can't get the words but I will try to get a copy somehow.  I wonder what I fell for.  IIRC her profile was fairly simple and our main connection happened quickly after we started talking on Skype and telephone.

[Turboguy]

OK, so we have a gal here who is used to working 16 hours a day 6 days a week and now she can sit around watching soap operas all day.  Well, sure, she can clean pans and scrub floors.  I am not saying it won't work but I have a feeling after a year or two she is going to find that life very unappealing.

Mine lady is the opposite.   She wants to work and have a career.   A few years ago she wanted to be someone who sat around doing nothing and tried it for a while and decided it was not for her.   To me, what she wants is up to her and it is not important to me one way or the other except that she has a life that she is happy with and hopefully she will give me a life I am happy with.   (We are having a small disagreement here since she says my hopefully should be an obviously which I am also sure is correct but I like to count my chickens after they are hatched.  OK, I give in.  She says we are already living together and happy and the obvious is the obvious answer)

[BC]

IMHO, especially with small children in the house, the 'job' of a mother is THE most important one.  Even today, I can remember that my mother was ALWAYS there for me, from breakfast to bedtime story.  I would want nothing less for our children.

As a father, my role as a breadwinner only serves to support the future of our children.  If my wife could replace me as the  breadwinner,  I would agree to a 'switch' if desired.. but until then we will keep doing what is best for the kids.  After all they are the future, not us.

Quite honestly, I think much of the 'feminist' movement is prompted by the perception or experiences that undervalue the true 'worth' of motherhood.

[KenC]

IMHO, especially with small children in the house, the 'job' of a mother is THE most important one.  Even today, I can remember that my mother was ALWAYS there for me, from breakfast to bedtime story.  I would want nothing less for our children.

As a father, my role as a breadwinner only serves to support the future of our children.  If my wife could replace me as the  breadwinner,  I would agree to a 'switch' if desired.. but until then we will keep doing what is best for the kids.  After all they are the future, not us.

Quite honestly, I think much of the 'feminist' movement is prompted by the perception or experiences that undervalue the true 'worth' of motherhood.

Totally agree with you BC.  In my first marriage, we both decided that my wife would stay home with the kids at least until they started school (5 years).  Well 5 turned into 10 and 10 turned into 15.  Which I really didn't care because I was making plenty of money, but when the kids hit their mid teens and didn't need a Mom-mobile, she (my ex wife) was lost.  She had no career, no education and well, no life outside the home.  She floundered a great deal and we ended up divorced.  Even though I harped on her to plan for her future (to get a degree or start a business) she didn't and of course in the end that too was my fault! :noidea:
KenC

[Turboguy]

BC, I won't berate the job of mother.  My mother stayed home with me as a child as did the mother of every child who was a friend of mine.   You gotta remember though we are not 20 year olds and I don't see that as much any more.

I have heard enough RW on RWD say they stayed home for a few years and it was the most miserable years of their life and they were deliriously happy to get back into the workforce.   I just question how long a woman used to working 16 hours a day will be content to stay home.

In my marriage my former wife never worked and it turned her into one of the laziest people on the face of the earth.   You know what they say about "A body at rest tending to stay at rest.    VWRW wants to be a career gal.  That is fine with me.   I am happy to do all I can to help her and if she said she wanted to spend her life staying home that would be OK too.

[I/O]

Quite honestly, I think much of the 'feminist' movement is prompted by the perception or experiences that undervalue the true 'worth' of motherhood.

Right on here...!!!!! IMO and from what I have observed locally and abroad, a guy might have a million-a-month career, but it pales into insignificance compared to the value of a good mother providing that real care and nurturing to a young child.  This is just waaaaaaaaaaaaay underestimated by general modern society.  Of course it can't be measured, but it would be interesting to know what cost to national economies the "social disfunctionals", who, IMO in many cases are a product of produce the baby then palm it off to wherever in leu of career.

However, also from what I have observed and in my own limited experience, any guy who thinks Russian women generally are going to want to be long term stay at home mums or simply home bodies is in for a very big shock.  That vision doesn't fit the Russian women I know.  Mostly they will enjoy to work, mostly they meet with friends in "Outside the house" locations very often if not several times a each day.

KenC: I have pondered your previous marriage and family (As you have explained it) and although it was perhaps ultimately an unpleasant ending in some ways, and as you say, that lack of outside interests on the part of your former wife may well have been a major factor, the benifit is that you have fine and functional children. Perhaps in a modern world, no price is too great to pay for that.

I/O   

[macman]

She had no career, no education and well, no life outside the home.  She floundered a great deal and we ended up divorced.  Even though I harped on her to plan for her future (to get a degree or start a business) she didn't and of course in the end that too was my fault!

And consequently KenC you had to support her w/ alimony.  Am I right?  Let's take this to a different level; last week while on vacation - on a resort island, I met a very prominant architect; I heard through family that he "was" married to a RW. . .  I didn't know him or care a whole bunch even though we might contract his services some day.  He stopped me to ask about support of a city ordinance issue - I knew his name and knew he married an RW thru my "grapevine".  LONG story short; He adopted the RW's child as soon as they arrived.  She divorced him in 2 yrs. . . yes, for the GC - He told me there were two options that the INS required.  One was support for the bride (alimony), the other support for the child. . . he settled for child support as it was 1k less. . . If this he told of the INS and financial obligation is true, I'm out.  This is why I abhore IMBRA and the feminist movement and the pendulum that swang way too far to provide equalization.


But Ken; if she raised the kids and they became productive citizens. . . and, took care of you as well, she deserved something. 


Where does one draw the line?


later.
mm

[TigerPaws]

While I have no intention to start "another" thread on prenuptial contracts these documents do alleviate some of the problems when a relationship becomes a divorce for whatever reason.

TigerPaws   

[KenC]

I/O & Macman,
My ex was a very good mother to my children up until the end when she got "goofy", but I took a very active role in raising two great kids too.  We were a strong family unit, with dinners together every night, and lots of family vacations and family activities.  My kids were always home and our house was the hang out for all their friends.  Of course she went for the jugular vein during the divorce and refused every reasonable offer I made.  We even went to trial which is very rare here.  Of course she got child support until the kids reached 18, but my son ended up moving in with me long before he reached that age.  My daughter was older and away at college for most of that time.  My ex was very confident that she would be awarded lifetime alimony even though it was she who cheated.  Going to trial worked against her and the judge only gave her 8 years of alimony.  All this was very acceptable to me along with 50% of all assets too, which is expected.  But the judge also gave her (as part of the assets) 15% of my 50% ownership in a business I had built over 15 years.  She promptly gave the 15% to my new partners as long as they promised to dump me.  Anything less than  50% ownership is worthless.  I guess she got her revenge in the end.
KenC

[Jazzyclassy]

It's all so  sad

You know guys I was thinking of the fact that you can not blame American women for being who they are , in the end of the days , such type of women are being raised by many American, western  father as well like you, so do not you think it is fair enough to blame both parties
In every situation both sides are to blame

Russian fathers usually  never ever call their daughters any kinda princesses of the Universe and never make them feel that they are the greatest of all  and that they should count only on their own in order to achieve the goals they've made in their lives.

and what can we observe in the USA? oh well Ken C will start again his old old old prehistoric song that if the person has never been to the USA he/she simple is ignorant and does not know anything, well I am still living in the World am not isolated and I understand how American youth is being cherished and raised , parents do a lot of things for them......... so what are you expecting of some US women , if they always know that if something happens their Rich daddies will pay for everything and get them out of some incident?????


The other point , where is the guarantee that if he divorced his American wife, he wont divorce his Russian one? absolutely none, once Russian wife does something unappropriate ( like I do not know wont prepare dinner several times or something)according to his point of view she will be outdoors -vagabond

You know maybe Russian women  are different than American ones, but all I know women are women everywhere with their weak traits of the character , their emotional nature, it does not matter if she is Russian or American , it also depends on  man a lot , if his old wife is no longer of interest to him and her interests and striving for something , he will  close the eyes on the fact that she gave birth to his kids, raised them , in his eyes she will always be hysterical woman with bitching attitude and things

So why the h-ll you ever married her then aaaaa? I do not understand this, when people are pouring  evil and bad comments on their old partners , like they only remember bad things

Do not think that if you married to a Russian woman , you will like everything about her , there are a lot of issues you will have to understand and tolerate.......

and finally work on your own personalities , you are also not perfect......

[Lily]

Russian fathers usually  never ever call their daughters any kinda princesses of the Universe and never make them feel that they are the greatest of all  and that they should count only on their own in order to achieve the goals they've made in their lives.

Exactly Jazzy.  Russian mothers would tell the same to their daughters, too.