The Distance Factor

[I/O]

Has the distance of these "long distance" relationships pushed guys to rush these relationships?

Absolutely not...!!! Quite the opposite for me.  Mine and I have been scratching around this thing like a couple of "Old Chooks" for more than two years now and we still have 2 1/2 months before we end up with our name in the local newspaper in the "matchings" section.

Generally speaking from down here, you are looking at the better part of two days from here to wherever in the FSU, but there is ways to mitigate some of the travel time, depending on where you choose to go.  Costs wise, if you think in terms of $1900-$3000 depending on times of the year etc for return tickets.

Think in terms of a minimum or 4 trips (Generally speaking) if all goes well.  You may acheive what you want in less, but that IMO could be risky and the greater liklihood is more trips.

To directly answer your original question, the distance factor is "Hell" whichever way you look at it. 

I/O

[BC]

Has anyone experienced "love is blind" syndrome, due to the distance? Creating more of a relationship in their mind than what is emotionally, physically etc there.

Has the distance of these "long distance" relationships pushed guys to rush these relationships?

Ick 

Many do, on both counts, often failing miserably.

[Shadow]

Quote from: Icarus on Today at 00:36:08

Has anyone experienced "love is blind" syndrome, due to the distance? Creating more of a relationship in their mind than what is emotionally, physically etc there.

Has the distance of these "long distance" relationships pushed guys to rush these relationships?

Ick 

I have experienced this, but found out in time because I did just the opposite of rushing.

[Icarus]

I think Ive got it.

If you go to fast you are heading towards disaster. If you go to slow, she might think you arent sincere.

The happy truth is to find the middle ground. Plus, communication, communication, communication. If there is no mutual attraction and sincere desire from either party to move forward and act in accordance with that notion, then again red flags abound.

You both have to agree with the SPEED in which things are moving.

Would you agree with that?

Now, let me take things back to the beginning. How many of you out there, went on your first trip to the FSU with the idea NOT to meet someone special, someone that you could develop a long term committed r'ship with?

Its been said so many times, not to play games with these women, if youre not sincere then stay home. These are marriage minded women, and the men that go over better be ready to step up to the plate should you find your soul mate.

So the mentality we go over with is to FIND her, and MARRY her. Granted it might not happen on the first, or second, or third trip, but its ultimately what motivates us, isnt it?

Its like the old proverb "If you want to find something wrong in your life, just look, and you'll find it"

Now, I know Im a newbie, and maybe Ive bitten off more than I can chew...but, with this mentality, arent we already "blinded" with the idea of meeting and marrying a FSUW?

I am in no means suggesting that the other forum members have chosen the wives, or girlfreinds they have blindfolded; Im doing it also, but Im trying to understand the psychology behind it.

...don't hold back, we Aussies are tough to

Ick

[I/O]

So the mentality we go over with is to FIND her, and MARRY her. Granted it might not happen on the first, or second, or third trip, but its ultimately what motivates us, isnt it?

There is two ways of looking at this.  Yes, you need to be committed to what you are doing if you want to see it through.  But OTOH I see it as a mistake to be so committed to finding someone from the FSU that one disregards all else.  Over commitment can also lead to self blinding.

To say that all women in the FSU are marriage minded is not correct.  Just because they appear on an internet site doesn't really demonstrate anything other than curiosity which is what prompts many western men also.  Those women who have registered with a reputable agency would IMO be more likely in general terms to be firmly committed to the process also, however, nothing is a "Given".

There is far too many generalizations, often overly positive, suggesting all Russian women are this or that.  Certainly they are different in some, perhaps many ways from the women one generally encounters here in Aus, but they ain't all Goddesses or Princesses. 

You can be as committed as you wish, but if you commit to the wrong woman in Russia, you are in for a sorry time.  I have always thought one needs ready access to the button on the "Self Eject" seat in this pursuit.

I/O

[BC]

Now, let me take things back to the beginning. How many of you out there, went on your first trip to the FSU with the idea NOT to meet someone special, someone that you could develop a long term committed r'ship with?

Maybe not to FSU, but I went on a vacation / business trip to another country and by chance met my RU wife.  Several trips afterwards with extended stays in RU we married.  Neither of us went travelling with the intentions of finding a wife/husband.  Just one of those pleasant surprises life throws at us from time to time.

To me, it's simply a matter of exposure.. a couch potato will get nowhere fast.

I am in no means suggesting that the other forum members have chosen the wives, or girlfreinds they have blindfolded; Im doing it also, but Im trying to understand the psychology behind it.

...don't hold back, we Aussies are tough to

Psychology as it pertains to MOB? - Overall, a desire for instant gratification leading to an addictive quest.  Not unlike gambling in many ways..  some do win, but the majority looses.. usually big time.

I cringe at the thought of someone who has never travelled outside their own country, maybe even state, filling out a passport application with RW and marriage in mind..  It's simply too silly.

This tough enough?

All of course IMHO.

[Shadow]

Ick, first one step back to a question I answered yesterday. When I was talking with my fiancee about the appreciation for a guy who travels she gave me the following reply:.

If the girl he visits is sincere, it will not matter if he has traveled one hour or 40 hours. For her it will be something very weird that someone from another country comes to visit her, and she will feel like she is ambassador of her country. It will be her responsiblity that the guy will feel safe and have a good trip, no mater what the outcome.

As you see, she indicates that a good woman will already feel the burden.

Now for your last post. When you have made a decision to travel with the intention to meet someone, it is clear that you will not do this just to meet and say hi. This goes for the woman you will meet as well. She should (and will) understand that you do not just happen to stop by, but that meeting is the main goal. This makes it dangerous. Both you and the woman (or women) you meet should keep open all options. The hope and target will be to make it the meeting you will remember together after 50 years (if you can remember anything at that time), but you both should be clear that the first day, hour or minute can change all of this.
So while there should be intentions and hope, it should also be a very clear mind that it can turn the other way, and you should be honest to her an yourself about it if this happens.

And what is very important is to concentrate on the main focus of the trip. The famous sights will always be there, the bars and discos will always be there. What you need to do is be yourself, and try to see as much of her life as she is willing to show to you. Only in that way you can judge her personality, by seeing how she lives, how she interacts with friends and family, with people on the street.  Try to live life her way, walk, take a bus or subway, let her get a private taxi. The less you behave like a spoiled tourist who uses his wallet to get around, the more she will like you.

And most of all.... communicate, communicate, communicate.

[TigerPaws]

BC,

A few years ago there was a commercial on TV I do not remember what it was about but there was two men in their 60's sitting in their PU trucks talking and the punch like was when on man asked other other if he had ever been out of the county?

Most Americans have never traveled very far from home some like the example above have never left the ciry where they grew up.

Sad but all to true.

TigerPaws

[TigerPaws]

Shadow,

I think you have the idea but even more so if a man is on the Write One Visit One approach he may be in for a shock. I know I was, on one of my first trips to Kiev I was meeting only one girl I had been communicating with for a number on months. I had planned on spending a week with her but after spending less than 10 minutes with her in person I knew she was not what I was interested in (for a number of reasons, not the least of all is that she was not pretty enough. Don't flame me on this I am just being honest).

TigerPaws

[Icarus]

Ok, lets go full circle then...

Could you correlate the WOVO appraoch with the "blind syndrome" ??? Considering the odds of success...??? And the mentality that one takes over with them, but then limiting themselves (and I say that in the confines of the intentions of NOT having a backup plan) to meeting one woman.

And with out sounding too analytical, then the WMVM for the more mature, or learned individual in an endeavor of this type? Being more open minded to realize failure when failure is present and see it as a learninf experience.

Would the WOVO, being the type that only makes the 1 trip to FSU, fails and decideds the endeavor is too hard? Or adopts the WMVM methodology in his next fray into the FSU?

I know this thread has gone a little off topic, but its interesting to see the type of men we are. Not only the type we are now, but also the type we were before we started this, and the men we have become after the realization of our search. How many of us recognize the changes in ourselves?

Ick

[Shadow]

As every WMVM would become a WOVO over time, the approach is not correlating with the 'blind syndrome'. As backup plan there is always those sights and tourist traps you will miss when things go right.

For me WOVO vs WMVM is not something you switch on or off. It depends on staying clse to your normal habits. Have you been accustomed to dating more than one girl at home ? Go WMVM. Are you used to concentrate on one primary target ? Go WOVO.

I can see that for guys who more distance to cover WMVM is a more attractive alternative. With just 3 or 4 hours travel distance it is easy to make short WOVO trips until you get it right. When travelling 15-40 hours you will want to make a longer trip. In such case if you are not accustomed to WMVM I would look around this board for adresses of agencies near your destination. If the plan fails, visit one of them and they will be more than ready and willing to get you some dates. That way you avoid the 'do I tell them or not' issue.

[Shadow]

Shadow,

I think you have the idea but even more so if a man is on the Write One Visit One approach he may be in for a shock. I know I was, on one of my first trips to Kiev I was meeting only one girl I had been communicating with for a number on months. I had planned on spending a week with her but after spending less than 10 minutes with her in person I knew she was not what I was interested in (for a number of reasons, not the least of all is that she was not pretty enough. Don't flame me on this I am just being honest).

TigerPaws

Tiger the only thing I would flame you for is that my dog can not read your posts without his glasses 
We all have our standards, and if you can keep to them it shows you are worth finding what you are looking for.

[Kuna]

Ick,

First of all let me compliment you on your analytical approach to this.  Some months ago there was a thred that debated emotional versus logic during the courting phase and I thinik the majority of men agreed that some logic was required before the heart is exposed.

No matter what anyone says there is a barrage of emotions when you prepare your trip and when you hit the ground.  I honestly believe those that can't control the emotions (or fantasies) are more likely to fail miserably on their first (or early) trips. Maybe it's just unrealistic expectations...  maybe it's total belief in the agency hype... maybe it's just poor dating skills at home - but some men just don't get it.


Something I have to say is that you'll often hear men say something and then imply (or straight out say) that "we were/are different"...

Very few of us are different and if we were totally honest we'll agree we "fell for the way these women make us feel".  Some men are marrying women that are "hotter" than the girls they can get at home... Some are heavily influenced by the attention they get from a traditional girl (if they fund one).  Either we haven't found "THAT FEELING" in the past or we thought we had but then reality hit...  but at the end of the day reality will hit with a FSUW as well.  They're women... just like we're men... and we all have flaws.

OK... onto your most recent post...

Ok, lets go full circle then...

Could you correlate the WOVO approach with the "blind syndrome" ??? Considering the odds of success...??? And the mentality that one takes over with them, but then limiting themselves (and I say that in the confines of the intentions of NOT having a backup plan) to meeting one woman.

And with out sounding too analytical, then the WMVM for the more mature, or learned individual in an endeavor of this type? Being more open minded to realize failure when failure is present and see it as a learninf experience.

Would the WOVO, being the type that only makes the 1 trip to FSU, fails and decideds the endeavor is too hard? Or adopts the WMVM methodology in his next fray into the FSU?

I know this thread has gone a little off topic, but its interesting to see the type of men we are. Not only the type we are now, but also the type we were before we started this, and the men we have become after the realization of our search. How many of us recognize the changes in ourselves?

Ick

WOVO...  

Many men fail when they take the WOVO approach but some DO succeed... They are the ones that say DON'T DO IT but I don't see many of them say WHY they got it so wrong

Why do some succeed when others fail?  Maybe they've been able to apply more logic and knowledge than the others (Of course they need to be corresponding with a woman who is of a similar character)...  Maybe they have been more realistic in their search.

My first trip was (I thought) WMVM... in fact I think I was WOVO with a backup plan...  the first girl I met was "the one" and in hindsight I knew she was the one... Thankfully we'd both kept a level head throughout the correspondence phase.

Some here say DON'T write for many letters before traveling - but it works for some.  I wrote for almost 3 months before my first trip and after printing ALL of our emails since we started writing I can tell you we definitely were developing feelings before meeting.  We were both attracted to each others words and stated goals and values...  We both sent many real life photos... We both asked difficult questions and I'm pretty sure when we met we both got what we expected.

The deal wasn't sealed at that first meeting though... but we both knew we wanted more time together... we both believed there was a future but we were both still cautious.  When did that change???  Well, that's another story.

Your questions and thought process will be invaluable in your search!

It's like writing a business plan...  The value isn't in the final document - it's in the analysis you've gone through...

Kuna

[Simoni]

My first trip was (I thought) WMVM... in fact I think I was WOVO with a backup plan...  the first girl I met was "the one" and in hindsight I knew she was the one...

Of course WOVO can work.  But one needs to know the percentages, which are quite low. *** I did four WOVO trips, and all were failures.    And without backup plans....resulting in many lonely hours in a strange city, unable to talk to people and unable to read.  And $3000 and vacation time wasted each trip.

***The third trip (or girl) involved writing letters daily for 4 months!  But as TigerPaws shared earlier, I knew in 10 minutes that this girl was not for me.

Later, I did three WMVM trips, and met my wife on the last one.   What if she had been the first girl I met? 

But she wasn't.   She was number 50 or so.

So yes, lightning can strike the first time.  But the odds are not in your favor.  Thus, if you do a WOVO trip, you better have backup.

[Kuna]

Thus, if you do a WOVO trip, you better have backup.

This is the only certainty in WOVO...  but I wonder if I can ask you a question Simoni without anyone getting offended, defensive or angry???

(I'm honestly just trying to open a discussion I haven't seen here before)...

You took 3 x WOVO trips and 3 (in total) WMVM trips...  Other men (like Turbo for instance) took 10 years to find his girl...  others have had long, hard and expensive journeys before they found what they were looking for...

I wonder...  what made it so difficult for those that needed MANY trips (as opposed to a few because its possible to have bad luck or be ripped off by an agency)...

Were the expectations realistic in the beginning???

Was it being underprepared in the earlier trips? (I met men on my trips that literally thought they could hit the ground and pick a wife from a catalogue... of COURSE they failed)

Was there some other factor that made it so difficult?


I know some men will say THEY didn't find what they were looking for but it's likely they were meeting girls that rejected them at times too...

We know the agencies spin a whole heap of BS that would make men think they can go to FSU and marry a beautiful, intelligent, family oriented girl - but it's not as easy as that now days... (depending on the man).

Personally, reading this board scared the crap out of me before my first trip therefore I set a number of contingencies in place that weren't needed at the end of the day... I don't put my "first trip success" down to luck because I know it was bloody hard work.

I'm just wondering if we can explore the question "What is it about WOVO that makes it risky?"  Sure, lack of chemistry is the issue in a lot of cases but WHY were there unrealistic expectations?

Studio photos?

Deceptive correspondence?

Agency Scams?

Pro-daters?

etc...

And if we can understand that HOW can we minimise these risks?


Kuna
 

[Simoni]

I wonder...  what made it so difficult for those that needed MANY trips (as opposed to a few because its possible to have bad luck or be ripped off by an agency)...
I'm just wondering if we can explore the question "What is it about WOVO that makes it risky?"  Sure, lack of chemistry is the issue in a lot of cases but WHY were there unrealistic expectations?

Gee, this is a no-brainer.  I'll answer briefly now, and in detail later.

ANSWER-- Numbers.   What is the chance that you meet one girl and she is the "one" for you?  Very, very slim.

Just think about the girls you have dated at home.  Did you want to marry the first one?  Any of them?

You have to have a big sample size to find the girl that is best for you.  Sure, you might have 50 red balls in a hat and one green one, and reach in and pull out the green one.  But the percentages say you will pull out a red ball.

[Simoni]

This is the only certainty in WOVO...  but I wonder if I can ask you a question Simoni without anyone getting offended, defensive or angry???I see nothing offensive at all about the question.  I'm simpy saying that the odds are that meting your dream girl in one trip, if it's a WOVO trip, are long...

(I'm honestly just trying to open a discussion I haven't seen here before)...

You took 3 x WOVO trips and 3 (in total) WMVM trips...  Other men (like Turbo for instance) took 10 years to find his girl...  others have had long, hard and expensive journeys before they found what they were looking for...*** I won't answer for Turbo.  But you seem to think many trips are a failure?  Nope.  You go until you find the best girl for you.  Looking back, I could have been happy with one of the first three WOVO....but not half as happy as the girl that stay the course got me.

But I'll add that without the WOVO mentality, I would have had more dates and met more girls more quickly.

I wonder...  what made it so difficult for those that needed MANY trips (as opposed to a few because its possible to have bad luck or be ripped off by an agency)... ***It's luck, Kuna.  And I maintain that email attraction and real life attraction are different, and one can't tell by email how real life chemistry will be.

Were the expectations realistic in the beginning???*** No, WOVO expectations are not realistic IMHO.  The odds are you will strike out with one.

Was it being underprepared in the earlier trips? (I met men on my trips that literally thought they could hit the ground and pick a wife from a catalogue... of COURSE they failed)***In my case, the first trip was trusting the email bond that had been formed.

Was there some other factor that made it so difficult?***No, it's just that one can't tell if you are attracted to a person until you meet them in real life.  No amount of preparation can overcome lack of chemistry, nor should it.


I know some men will say THEY didn't find what they were looking for but it's likely they were meeting girls that rejected them at times too... ***Every single WOVO girl wanted me.  I was the one that rejected them.  But why would a girl you have no chemist with want to marry you?  Unpure motives, for sure.

We know the agencies spin a whole heap of BS that would make men think they can go to FSU and marry a beautiful, intelligent, family oriented girl - but it's not as easy as that now days... (depending on the man).***Agencies work fine, if you have an honest agency and are willing to date enough girls.  Once again, it's not like the first girl you date will be the "one for you."  Very unlikely.

Personally, reading this board scared the crap out of me before my first trip therefore I set a number of contingencies in place that weren't needed at the end of the day... I don't put my "first trip success" down to luck because I know it was bloody hard work.***All the prep in the world still needs luck. In my case, I had romanced the girl hard, written daily letters, etc. But when I was with her, despite her amazing beauty, I felt nothing for her.  So I bailed.

I'm just wondering if we can explore the question "What is it about WOVO that makes it risky?"  Sure, lack of chemistry is the issue in a lot of cases but WHY were there unrealistic expectations?

Studio photos?*** Most of the girls I met looked better in real life than in photos.  Personality adds life to a picture.

Deceptive correspondence?***Don't think so, in my case.  It was just lack of chemistry.

Agency Scams?***I did encouter at least two scammers in the 50 or so I dated that I know of.  Neither girl was with an agency.  One was just an accidentail meeting in the FSU.  The other wrote me from Elena's models.

Pro-daters?***I did have dates with a couple of pro-daters on WMVM trips.  But since you have so many options, you just move on...

etc...

And if we can understand that HOW can we minimise these risks?***I'll repeat, you don't write letters for months.  Write 2 or 3 letters and go meet the girl.  And have back-up.  In short, make FSU dating like dating at home.  Meet the girls, have fun with them.  In time, you may get lucky and find a great girl.  I did.
 

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[Icarus]

Wow, thats great feedback Simoni.

I would like to ask though, how many of you looked for Uk/Ru women from your home town, or home country?

And before you burn me with the answers like...numbers, there are more Uk/Ru women in Uk/Ru; hence your odds increase, or FSUW in the FSU are more traditional, or havent been corrupted by Western feminizm.

Do we want to become a knight in shinig armour, by showing these women how gallant we are, and fly over to see them, date them, and marry them? If so, then IMHO, we have some insecurity issues to deal with. (I can almost feel the tirade upon me for that one).

I honestly cant justify writing 2-3 letters then going over to meeting 1 person. That doenst even scratch the surface of individual identiy, their whole being etc.

Ive got more to add, but I will have to write it tomorrow.

Ick

[Mir]

All the prep in the world still needs luck. In my case, I had romanced the girl hard, written daily letters, etc. But when I was with her, despite her amazing beauty, I felt nothing for her.  So I bailed.

I'll repeat, you don't write letters for months.  Write 2 or 3 letters and go meet the girl.  And have back-up.  In short, make FSU dating like dating at home.  Meet the girls, have fun with them.  In time, you may get lucky and find a great girl.  I did.

IMO these two contradict each other.
Either you just use the email to introduce yourself and then go and meet (2-3 emails then meeting) or you use the email/telephone etc. to get to know a lot about each other, and maybe that can start some romance before the meeting.
If someone has been romancing hard before meeting and it takes for him 10 minutes of real meeting to decide that this is not right then I find this rather strange and can only be explained if the girl was totally false in her emails and the lie was easily picked up face to face.

I know everyone will disagree with me but I think high expectations/the need to keep looking as someone better will be next does play a major role for people to settle with their 50th date and not earlier (even in real life).
Certainly after multiple dates one gets a better idea of what is available and it does help to make a realistic decision.
Just like meeting the right one needs luck so does happiness after the search is over. No one can predict for sure how things will turn out after a few months or years of living together.

[Simoni]

Footnote'

People are successful in different ways.  My opinion is, given the distance factor, that you should maximize your chanches by avoiding a first time WOVO trip.  But if someone wants to go that route and has the time and money, go for it!  I did.  I lost.  Mark the One Week Wonder did and won.  If you do and lose, you can try again. Hope you get that green ball and the jackpot :-)

[I/O]

Diana was Prince Charles 51st noted girlfriend and look what happend there.

Gaaawd this WMVW vs WOVO debate gives me the schits at times.  Pick the style that suits you and just do it.  Personally in spite of the "Odds" arguement, I think the Visit Many approach has as many if not more flaws than the Visit One approach. It does IMO lean very much toward the "Puppy Picking" syndrone.

I've heard so much BS about not being able to figure at least something out about another person through letters that it hardly warrants examination.  Nevertheless, I would suggest a few of you guys get hold of a copy of a short book called "Write Language" written by a half comedian, half salesman called Allan Pease.  There is a few good clues in there as to how to read between the lines so to say.

My parents at the age of 17, 50 years ago, did the letter routine for over a year, were married at 18, had two kids by the time they were 21 and in March of next year will celebrate their 50th wedding aniversary.  I doubt too many of us on this board will ever reach that benchmark and it suits me as a pretty good example.

Nothing wrong, generally speaking with the Visit Many approach, but to blanket condemn the value of letters or Visit One is BS.  I did the Visit Many routine once I decided to go this road, which was after 3 trips into various parts of the FSU and I know that when I ditched that routine and started to focus on what was important to me long term I started to see a lot of things I hadn't seen before, but that's me.

The point is, for every arguement, there is a counter arguement so is comes down to being true to self and using the method you are most comfortable with. I personally think the members here would do far better examining the methodology of each of the options rather than arguing the validity of one or the other.

I/O   

[TigerPaws]

Wow, thats great feedback Simoni.

I would like to ask though, how many of you looked for Uk/Ru women from your home town, or home country?

And before you burn me with the answers like...numbers, there are more Uk/Ru women in Uk/Ru; hence your odds increase, or FSUW in the FSU are more traditional, or havent been corrupted by Western feminizm.

Do we want to become a knight in shinig armour, by showing these women how gallant we are, and fly over to see them, date them, and marry them? If so, then IMHO, we have some insecurity issues to deal with. (I can almost feel the tirade upon me for that one).

I honestly cant justify writing 2-3 letters then going over to meeting 1 person. That doenst even scratch the surface of individual identiy, their whole being etc.

Ive got more to add, but I will have to write it tomorrow.

Icarus,

Times have changed, exchanging 5 to 7 quality letters with a number of ladies (say 15 to 25) over a 90 day time frame then flying over to meet with as many as possible would be perfectly acceptable. Then a man would have the oppertunity weed out the ladies he had no interest in for whatever reason. After which he could continue with geting to know however many ladies he is interested in.

TigerPaws

[Shadow]

I would like to ask though, how many of you looked for Uk/Ru women from your home town, or home country?

Do we want to become a knight in shinig armour, by showing these women how gallant we are, and fly over to see them, date them, and marry them? If so, then IMHO, we have some insecurity issues to deal with. (I can almost feel the tirade upon me for that one).

I honestly cant justify writing 2-3 letters then going over to meeting 1 person. That doenst even scratch the surface of individual identiy, their whole being etc.

When I looked in my home town or country, I looked for local women. When I looked in another country, I looked for the women of that country. I did once meet an Ukrainian woman in New York though.

Insecurity issues will always be there as long as you search. Flying over to show yourself as 'white knight' could actually work in reverse. While women like to be spoiled, most will not enjoy if they get the impression that money is a substitute for everything.

If you write 2-3 letters, meet and then come back engaged odds are you have a serious problem.
If you are going to meet one person, at least write some to understand what is true character and what is not. And marriage is based on communication. Without it, there is nothing. Either you communicate before the first meeting, or you will have to do it afterwards. Both ways can get good and bad results.

[Shadow]

Icarus,

Times have changed, exchanging 5 to 7 quality letters with a number of ladies (say 15 to 25) over a 90 day time frame then flying over to meet with as many as possible would be perfectly acceptable. Then a man would have the oppertunity weed out the ladies he had no interest in for whatever reason. After which he could continue with geting to know however many ladies he is interested in.

TigerPaws

And of course it is also perfectly acceptable that the ladies in this time frame of 90 days will meet about 15 other men. 

[TigerPaws]

And of course it is also perfectly acceptable that the ladies in this time frame of 90 days will meet about 15 other men. 

Shadow,

What the Sam Hell ae you talking about?

TigerPaws