What site you use to find?

[GregfromGa]

I'm going to have to agree with Thor on this. The  most part about looking in the mirror and to an extent about touring. Now if I was going to Ukraine for the first time then a tour might be exactly what you're looking for. I can actually see both sides. I've always been a big advocate of having a wingman on your first few trips. I think with a group or wingman,you have a tendency to have more courage. I've seen guys absolutely freeze up and stay in their room or on a bar stool because things fell through with the one girl they were writing. Touring is a good way to see Ukraine and there will be lots of girls no doubt but I wouldnt advise just talking to the girls at the meetings. Talk to the cute girl in the shop. Talk to your waitress.  Talk to that girl sitting on the bench. Dont be afraid to had some stranger a bouquet of flowers and your email address.Yes she's a waitress or shop girl, but she probably has a college education and even if she doesnt then whats the big deal?

The biggest thing I see with some not all Americans that I've met over there is the God complex. Just because you're American,that doesnt make you David Lee Roth along about 1984. Just because you're American that doesnt make you as cool as three Fonzies. STAY NEAR YOUR LEAGUE. Just because a sweet girl might need braces or just because a nice girl wears the same skirt 2 days in a row is no reason to dismiss her. I dont know if these are the kinds of things Jack or whoever tells his clients but I dont think it would hurt. I know the customer is supposed to always be right but reality is a good thing. Also while I'm on a roll this morning. Stay away from the disco girls that can out drink you. Not a good sign. Also no reason to try and save a prostitute for her life. I know she's beautiful and I know you can offer her so much more and all that but give it up. Not good. Life is tough but you cant save the world starting with the beautiful girl that just had sex with you for $65.

I think tours might be a good way to get your feet wet but if you've made 10 trips and you're still touring then you have problems. Look in the mirror. Get yourself in shape,develop a sense of humor and realize that you might just not be the man you think you are when it comes to dating early and mid-20's FSU ladies.

[IAmZon]

Going wide seems like a better vacation.  Going deep would answer more questions about long term interest in the culture people, in general ... in one woman certainly.

Thor writes: "Then it is mission impossible to "catch" this girls. They will often very fast ask for a dress or a purse and if you say no, so will it be do svidanya very fast. This girls are spoiled by Ukrainian men, and expect that you spoil them to. When so don't happen so no chance."

These are American chicks your talking about now... I know everything about them:)  "Threat a lady like a tramp, a tramp like a lady" - and do not be fearful of thinning your heard.  God made many, many girls like this, and they are not worth two shits.  Only a breath away from ...

GregfromGA writes: "Stay away from the disco girls that can out drink you. Not a good sign. Also no reason to try and save a prostitute for her life. I know she's beautiful and I know you can offer her so much more and all that but give it up. Not good. Life is tough but you cant save the world starting with the beautiful girl that just had sex with you for $65."

I would never LOOK for damaged goods.

Hemingway wrote a passage in a Farewell to Arms: "The world breaks first the most beautiful, the most strong, and the most brave.  Sometimes we heal, and are stronger at the broken places.  If you are none of these, the world will break you too, but in no particular hurry."  (not exact quote) 

GregfromGa wrote : "STAY NEAR YOUR LEAGUE"

Is that not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Yet never underestimate the generosity of a woman once she falls in love.

[TigerPaws]

GregfromGa, Thor,

I am going to disagree a little, there is nothing out of my league (more or less) in the FSU. While that might sound like an off the wall statement it depends on you feel about yourself, Hells Bells I was a 45 year old balding man with 2 children and I had no problem meeting and getting to know some of the most beautiful and serious 24 to 29 year old women anywhere. They had no idea of how much I was or was not worth and for the most part did not care, I did not buy them expensive gifts or really anything at all, shure we went to dinner, the theater, museum's but nothing that would show any hint of wealth.

We spend a lot of time mostly in Russia sense that is where my wife's family is and much of that time is in rural Russia and I can assure you there are just as many intelligent and beautiful ladies today as there were 8 years ago when I was looking.

Never think any girl is out of your league, what is the worst that can happen? She will tell you to get lost, so what move on the the next beautiful girl.

TigerPaws     

[GregfromGa]

Well Tiger I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I would venture to say that most and when I say most I mean upwards toward 90% of the guys that try this process,well they probably arent as financially able to afford to be wrong. When I say I married way out of my league then I mean just that. Whether you consider yourself out of your league or not almost all people would. Being financially secure to the point of jet setting all over the world on a regular basis is a luxury that few of us will ever get to experience and I would think that being that way would help you to exude a confidence that some guys just dont have or will ever have. I personally think you give guys false hope when you make a blanket statement like that. Now dont get me wrong,I'm not getting on your ass because thats just the way you see it but I just dont think that given your situation that you're the best authority. I like you. I've always enjoyed your post and will continue to do so hopefully but I've ran into enough guys over there to know that most really do swing for the fences and try for the supermodel when the average girl is probably the best bet for longterm happiness. Again I say I got lucky but I'm also a very confident man. Not because I'm wealthy but because of the way I was raised and because I'm just a very competitive guy.

I know that my chances would be much better walking into a room full of small town FSU girls rather than a room full of girls the same age from Nantucket during the season. Like I said I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Landing a beautiful girl I dont think is the hard part. Keeping one once she arrives here is where the work comes in. It happens I know but I'd really really like to see the numbers of the ones that didnt make it when there was such a big difference in age.

[TigerPaws]

GregfromGa,

In the Air Force there is a saying "Aim High" well I understand that many men do not know how to shoot for the stars, ok that is their problem. I have always said never settle for second best but that dose not mean to be stupid about your choices. I have met a few men who have failed and in every case it was because they failed to choose wisely and do their due diligence in their search, for the most part these men were under capitalized in time, money and the intelligence to make the right decisions.
 
This process is all about choices, the choices a man makes, if he makes the wrong choices then he has no one to blame but himself, though few people will admit that. I made mistakes along the way and you can read about them on this forum but before those mistakes lead to the alter I backed off and changed direction correcting what I had done until I got it right.

The major issue for most men is not the money it is time and although money and time usually go hand in hand if a man has the time he will usually do better than a man who has the money but no time. If a man has neither or limited time and money he would be will advised not to look to the FSU for a lady. 

TigerPaws

[Kuna]

Well Tiger I guess we'll just agree to disagree. I would venture to say that most and when I say most I mean upwards toward 90% of the guys that try this process,well they probably arent as financially able to afford to be wrong. When I say I married way out of my league then I mean just that. Whether you consider yourself out of your league or not almost all people would. Being financially secure to the point of jet setting all over the world on a regular basis is a luxury that few of us will ever get to experience and I would think that being that way would help you to exude a confidence that some guys just dont have or will ever have. I personally think you give guys false hope when you make a blanket statement like that. Now dont get me wrong,I'm not getting on your ass because thats just the way you see it but I just dont think that given your situation that you're the best authority. I like you. I've always enjoyed your post and will continue to do so hopefully but I've ran into enough guys over there to know that most really do swing for the fences and try for the supermodel when the average girl is probably the best bet for longterm happiness. Again I say I got lucky but I'm also a very confident man. Not because I'm wealthy but because of the way I was raised and because I'm just a very competitive guy.

I know that my chances would be much better walking into a room full of small town FSU girls rather than a room full of girls the same age from Nantucket during the season. Like I said I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Landing a beautiful girl I dont think is the hard part. Keeping one once she arrives here is where the work comes in. It happens I know but I'd really really like to see the numbers of the ones that didnt make it when there was such a big difference in age.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself and good advice for future newbies...


One more point... when did shure become a word?  I've seen it a few times from a few different posters and I feel like I've missed something...

[IAmZon]

I was rather obsessed with the LEAGUE question when I first came here. (Came off as a little superficial and very naive, I think).  But I was freshly separated and found myself 42 years old. God! that is starting NOT to sound so old.

I have come to understand my position with the help of time and experience.

I have a step daughter who is 23 years old.  I was very uncomfortable dating a 25 year old at first   Then, I came to understand one has NOTHING to do with the other   Especially, when there is NO manipulation, and the 25 year old female WANTS my company badly

I have had enough experience now to know somethings about age gaps.  Forget FSU for a minute.

If you keep yourself in shape.  If you have confidence and charm.  And, if you are successful (not necessarily RICH) ... I find it EASIER to date attractive ladies in there 20s now then I did when I was in my 20s and 30s!

The number of ladies that I interest is lower btw.  But for those who are available ... they are VERY available. 

So, after a year test driving ... I am in the TP camp.  But only after taking a good, long look in the mirror.

[TigerPaws]

rivardco,

Welcome to the top 1% and get used to the bottom 90% not understanding what the Hell you are doing or talking about. The remaining 9% may be salvageable.  But I doubt it.

TigerPaws

[Thor]

GregfromGa, Thor,

I am going to disagree a little, there is nothing out of my league (more or less) in the FSU. While that might sound like an off the wall statement it depends on you feel about yourself, Hells Bells I was a 45 year old balding man with 2 children and I had no problem meeting and getting to know some of the most beautiful and serious 24 to 29 year old women anywhere. They had no idea of how much I was or was not worth and for the most part did not care, I did not buy them expensive gifts or really anything at all, shure we went to dinner, the theater, museum's but nothing that would show any hint of wealth.

We spend a lot of time mostly in Russia sense that is where my wife's family is and much of that time is in rural Russia and I can assure you there are just as many intelligent and beautiful ladies today as there were 8 years ago when I was looking.

Never think any girl is out of your league, what is the worst that can happen? She will tell you to get lost, so what move on the the next beautiful girl.

TigerPaws     

Privet Tigerpws,

Yes it always good to ail high!!! But if you aim to high the chances of sucess will be less than if you aim more into your own league....

If you had success with girls back home then you will be very successful in FSU, very successful!!! If you look good so will you have big success with the girls here.  BUT, if you have very littel experience with girls or have have big problem to get a date back home then please don't believe you can catch the most beautiful girls, because then you can be very disappointed. Somehow some men believe that they can find girls much younger and totally out of their league here. I don't think that you can if you don't look good or are very rich. I am shure you dated a lot of beautiful young girls 8 years ago, BUT the times have changed a lot since 1999.......A LOT!!! (I was not here back then but my friends here and helpers has told me so). Now the economical situation in FSU and especially in Russia has improved a lot!!

Yes there are as many beautiful and intelligent ladies today as 8 years ago, But they are not so desperate to meet foreign men anymore ( I am not saying that they where desperate because they meet you )....A lot of rich rich and successful local guys hunts this girls too.

Of course you can be lucky and meet that very special and young beautiful girl. But most men have limited time over here and if you keep dating the most beautiful girls with very littel success so will you come back time after time, year after year. Years waisted, years you should have spend with a girl in your own league instead. Besides this, if you bring a very hot and much younger bride home, do you really believe that this relationship will last very long when you come home and the girl see "the new market" for her in a new country??

By the way Tigerpaws I like your post and don't want to be aggressive at all, I just want men to be more realistic when they come here, then much more men will be successful.

[TigerPaws]

Privet Tigerpws,

Yes it always good to ail high!!! But if you aim to high the chances of sucess will be less than if you aim more into your own league....

Thor in principal I agree, each man has his comfort zone with the type of girl he normally would date back home and of course if the man is a back country hick missing half his teeth and chewing tobacco then you bet he will have a lot of problems.

What I am talking about is the average 45 year old businessman with better than average intelligence, income and time. Most girls in the 25 to 28 year old range are within his grasp no matter if they are model types. It all depends on the man.

If you had success with girls back home then you will be very successful in FSU, very successful!!! If you look good so will you have big success with the girls here.  BUT, if you have very littel experience with girls or have have big problem to get a date back home then please don't believe you can catch the most beautiful girls, because then you can be very disappointed. Somehow some men believe that they can find girls much younger and totally out of their league here. I don't think that you can if you don't look good or are very rich, and how can you keep girl I am shure you dated a lot of beautiful young girls 8 years ago, BUT the times have changed a lot since 1999.......A LOT!!! (I was not here back then but my friends here and helpers has told me so). Now the economical situation in FSU and especially in Russia has improved a lot!!

I will say that I have not been to the Ukraine in a number of years but we do travel throughout Russia extensively every year from Moscow to Siberia so I do know a lot about what a man is able to find. Thor a man could easily find so many intelligent and unbelievably beautiful ladies his head would spin in rural Russia and much of Siberia. Yes there are great numbers of very high quality ladies in Russia even today, believe me I know we were in Russia not long ago and will be again before winter starts this year. 

Yes there are as many beautiful and intelligent ladies today as 8 years ago, But they are not so desperate to meet foreign men anymore ( I am not saying that they where desperate because they meet you )....A lot of rich rich and successful local guys hunts this girls too.
Read above Thor. 



Of course you can be lucky and meet that very special and young beautiful girl. But most men have limited time over here and if you keep dating the most beautiful girls with very littel success so will you come back time after time, year after year. Years waisted, years you should have spend with a girl in your own league instead. Besides this, if you bring a very hot and much younger bride home, do you really believe that this relationship will last very long when you come home and the girl see "the new market" for her in a new country??

Thor as I have said again and again it is up to the man to have the time and resources to make a proper search, the man is in control of the entire process if he chooses wisely then yes things will be just fine but if he rushes the process and makes the wrong decisions then he is destined to failure.

By the way Tigerpaws I like your post and don't want to be aggressive at all, I just want men to be more realistic when they come here, then much more men will be successful.

Again I agree in principal Thor maybe it is just that we are talking about two different kind of men, I am talking about the top 1% maybe you are talking about the average Joe who is lucky he can walk, talk and breath at the same time.

TigerPaws

[Thor]

Tigerpaws,

If you talk about the top 1% of men who comes here so do I tally agree with you. They can find the most beautiful girls ever here. If you are 45 and a business man, intelligent, successful and a very high income, yes then you can choose the best girls. No doubt about that.

I think more about the average Joe. Maybe 40-45, average income, average look, can come only 1 every year....Then it is hard to find the top ladies in FSU....

[TigerPaws]

Tigerpaws,

If you talk about the top 1% of men who comes here so do I tally agree with you. They can find the most beautiful girls ever here. If you are 45 and a business man, intelligent, successful and a very high income, yes then you can choose the best girls. No doubt about that.

I think more about the average Joe. Maybe 40-45, average income, average look, can come only 1 every year....Then it is hard to find the top ladies in FSU....

Thor,

I agree and it is that group that generally will fail in this endeavor, I discourage them form going at all.

TigerPaws

[DKMM]

Lucky for me I'm young and good looking, although only middle class.  Where does that put me Mr. Paws?

[BC]

One thing we should remember is that FSU is changing at a rapid pace.  It is not the same place TP or even I first visited 5 or more years ago.

My prognosis is that in the next 5 years or so the under 30 crowd will have a much better outlook (if not already) and will not be thinking much at all about international relationships.  The age gaps we see today will rapidly disappear.

[jj]

BC-  I think this is true for larger cities, but it looks like the bigger economic opportunities are not making it out to the smaller cities, towns, villages as quickly as many plants close down and move to cities.  I guess the girls can move to the cities for work , if they can afford to live there, but I think they will still be open to meet kind, foreign  men who are seriously looking for good wives and family.  I do think, however, we may see the kind of urban sprawl we see here, where land prices will go up outside of the city, and small businesses may crop up to support the growth.  But they need to change their complicated rules and regulations for building, and land development.  I think the Ukraine is advancing a little more in that area than Russia.-jj

[DKMM]

The young good looking women are moving to the cities, not just sitting around in a village waiting for something to happen.  Go to Moscow and you will see endless numbers of these fine ladies.  That's why the big cities are the best places to look, as these have the best ladies. 

If you are hoping they will be impressed with your money or passport, then yeah those guys are not going to have many chances as they used to.  These types of ladies will find what they are looking for in well off older Russian males.  If you are looking for a good woman though within 10 years of your age, there are plenty ladies looking for other reasons as mentioned on Jen's thread of why to look for a foreign man.  Good women are being sidestepped by well off local men for the discount hos on parade that come from all corners of Russia.  I know I've been there 3 times in the past 10 months and met 100's of people male and female in their 20's.

I predict as social globalization spreads, more women will be open to foreign relationships, but the gap between looks, age and income will close.

[Thor]

I predict as social globalization spreads, more women will be open to foreign relationships, but the gap between looks, age and income will close.

You hit the bull eye here DKMM!!!
Very good post!!

[orlando]

I agree good post

[TigerPaws]

DKMM,

 In general I agree with your assertion but you need to remember that Russia is a big country and there is still a lot of opportunities for a gentleman in the more rural areas. Yes many, many people are moving to the big cities and the Russia we know today will not be the same in 5 or 10 years but that can be said for just about anyplace.

TigerPaws

[DKMM]

I hear you Paws, I went to Tver and saw what you are alluding to.  But the unequal matches of yesteryear are over.  Sorry to be so blunt but the young hot ladies (19-26) are not going to go for anybody over 40 unless they are true golddiggers and you got a pot of gold.  Maybe if you look in Magadan but I highly doubt it.  No offense to anybody here.

But you never know what will happen either.  All it would take is china's economy going in the toilet, and then the world price of commodities and oil would collapse and Russia will be in a big heap of trouble ala 1998.   It could be just as bad as then because the state owns half of these companies and they are leveraged to the hilt trying to pump oil and mine ore as fast as possible.  Nobody thought it could happen in the heady days of the late 90's when money was rolling around everywhere.  You never know...

[TigerPaws]

DKMM,

Tver is not what I would call a rural town (I am sure Rvrwind would have something to say about that), try Saransk or Ruzayevka, even Perm is far more rural than Tver.

I am not disagreeing with you in general, but the gems can be found, a gentleman just has to know and be willing to go a bit further to find them today.

TigerPaws

[Kuna]

Tiger,

When I first joined here there was a lot of discussion and advice about searching for a lady in a city similar to where you live at home (in terms of population, etc).

I assume people said that to minimise the culture shock if someone came from a big city to a small town or if someone grew up and lived in a village only to turn up in a huge city.

What's your opinion on this???  Hogwash or is there some fact?

[Thor]

I hear you Paws, I went to Tver and saw what you are alluding to.  But the unequal matches of yesteryear are over.  Sorry to be so blunt but the young hot ladies (19-26) are not going to go for anybody over 40 unless they are true golddiggers and you got a pot of gold.  Maybe if you look in Magadan but I highly doubt it.  No offense to anybody here.

Yes the this is my impression to DKMM. The young hot girls (19-26) would never or VERY seldom go for a foreign guy over 40 unless he is very rich or very good looking. It was different 7.8,9 years ago when the economical situation was different. I heard today that my friend read that a minimum salary for a illegal cleaner in Moscow are now 800 dollars every month...The salary's get higher and higher in Russia. Peoples have more and more money. It could be a differendt story in Ukraine because Ukraine don't have the same exspandation in the economy as Russia. But I doubt that many young hot girls would look for a foreign man in his 40 s who is not rich. Finding "normal" girls is easy, finding the hot ones is hard. But it seems to me that almost all foreign men comming here wants only the hot ones and then keep comming back time after time, year after year.....

[Rvrwind]

But it seems to me that almost all foreign men comming here wants only the hot ones and then keep comming back time  after time, year after year.....

That's what the MEN are looking for, is the key word here. Most don't even consider what the women are looking for. Most don't even read or pay attention to the profile part that states the desired age 25 -33 or whatever, but yet some late 40' early 50's balding, overweight fool that looks 10 years older than me figures he can just ignore that. "I'm special so it don't apply" syndrome.
I know many agencies either change the ladies choices or convince her to accept older dudes because it is a money mill for them. We however do not. What she says for age preference is her choice & hers alone, probably explains why most of our young hotties don't get as many letters as the 30 - 44 year olds, they state the truth! They are too honest & so are we, they don't want some fat azzad, 50 year old salivating all over them.
Sooner guys figure that out, the easier my life will be for all involved.
As has been stated many times, LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!!! Then pick the appropriate pond to fish in because if you don't, you will be disappointed.
Of course then you will scream I was scammed, which 9 times out of 10 is pure bullsh*t, you weren't scammed, you were stupid!! You chased an 18 year old smokinhotkova & you are 50+, overweight & way out of your league & fishing in the wrong pond!! What in hell did you think was going to happen???
Yes David, Tver is definitely not a rural town. Hell I lived in the capital of Alberta, Edmonton & it is the same population as Tver, or was when I left Canada. You want to see rural I could have hooked you up with our village tour, you would deffinitely see the difference quite quickly.
The beauty of Tver is that many of the ladies from rural villages come to Tver. Why? Because moving in Russia is very difficult. First you have to get a job in the place you want to move, then you have to find a place to live where you can be registered legally, then you have to move without the benefit of a moving company.
Tver has several advantages for those young people. There are many jobs in Tver, contrary to some opinions, it is also close enough to Moscow & has high speed train service to take workers to Moscow & return everyday. It makes only one stop, Klin & then straight into Moscow, same on the return trip, only runs twice per day, there & back. This train was built & put in service specifically to help the workforce commune back & forth.
Also Tver has a lot of universities, which enjoy maximum enrollment, mostly of the female kind.
Last but not least, things are considerably cheaper in Tver than Moscow, which allows your money to go farther.
Tver has a good reputation among the locals & is a well loved city, many people desire to live here.
From Tver you can travel to SPB in 6 hours, daytrips for many folks are common to SPB. Don't ever discount Tver, it is a growing & vibrant city if one wishes to spend the time to enjoy it & see it for what it truly is.
How's that for an advertisement? LOL, 

[Lily]

Back to the initial topic. I think now I can really recommend www.hotornot.com...

I have made two great acquaintances just in 24 hours, so I enjoying a webcam Sunday