Wingin it...

[slant]

Ok so I have read so much on this site about planning and setting up dates through agencies and which sites are scammers etc. etc.

Here is my question... Would you recommend going there without any of this planning? I am not real big on paying for tours, dates, phone #'s or addresses etc. Is this a necessity? Does it really up your odds that much? Also, what about the safety there? Would you recommend an American go there alone?

[Rvrwind]

You a brave man Dewd. Especially if you don't speak, understand, read or write the language.
Can be done but it won't be easy. I wish you luck with it, enjoy, I can assure you it will be a great experience, a lot of fun & frustration all at the same time. But it will be a trip you will never forget.

[Jazzyclassy]

I do not know I think it would be very useful to  have a tour trip , to be pretty safe in the fact that you will have a group of tourists to go hang out together and communicate at least if you do not know anyone there,

About the safety oh I see many americans in Moscow especially in the centre, but mostly they are group of young guys like friends came to hang around or something like that, or old couples , or just student groups, or tourist groups, usually if  american person is alone coming he is obviously coming to meet some woman so he is hanging around with her

I do not know it depends on , if you got used to travel just like that on your own , alone then I doubt it will be any danger for you really:)

Good luck

[BC]

A good alternative is to look for FSU folks that share hobbies or other interests, build rapport and eventually visit.  My first trip was to meet programmers I work with there.  Any 'in' will do.

[I/O]

Would you recommend going there without any of this planning?

In a word, no.  I did exactly that several years ago, decided I was going to Russia with one particular aim in mind, I wanted to see lake Baikal, end of story.  I pre booked the flight from Moscow to Irkutsk (Near Baikal) and two nights in a hotel in Irkutsk (Of which I used 1).  I was in Russia 3 weeks on that trip and made it up as I went along. I never pre booked any flights back towards Moscow at all.  I did all that along the way.

I had a lot of fun and met a lot of people, but with the benifit of further experience, it was madness.  I didn't know one single person in Russia at the time, didn't speak a word of the language, didn't even have the brains to take a phrse book or dictionary.  Boy was I wet behind the ears. As for meeting women, it was not my intention on that part of the trip (This was part of 6 months travel) however I did meet a few ladies by accident so to say, but that was pure chance and it could easily of been that I met nobody at all.

If you were going to pull on that sort of stunt now, you need to be very determined and very committed to getting out on your own and battling the system.  You could easily end up seeing the inside of hotel rooms and airports only, which in Russia are not very exciting.

On your first trip to Russia, it can well take you a week or so to get some kind of handle on how things work.  Without any pre planning, you can just about write off that first week and from there you might start to find your way around a little more easily.  If you have plenty of time, as I did, with no particular committments, then it can be done, but my advice is an emphatic don't do it. Put a plan together with some flexibility and definitely some back up or contingency.

I/O

[MaxxumUSA]

Ok so I have read so much on this site about planning and setting up dates through agencies and which sites are scammers etc. etc.

Here is my question... Would you recommend going there without any of this planning? I am not real big on paying for tours, dates, phone #'s or addresses etc. Is this a necessity? Does it really up your odds that much? Also, what about the safety there? Would you recommend an American go there alone?

You don't need to pay for a tour to communicate with an agency.

Going with no plan at all might be OK if you are going to a major city for sightseeing only.  Even that could be a daunting task because you can assume that nobody speaks english.

I see you are military.  Maybe you have been stationed out of the country and the locals around the base speak english?  Do not assume the same in russia - because most don't.

I made my first visit to visit one woman.  I was extremely lucky and she speaks english - and additionally we fell hard for each other.  But let me assure you...  My life was in her hands to keep me safe, translate for me to all of her family and friends, and to entertain me.  Had we not connected my visit would have been horrible because practically nobody in her town speaks english.  And - she is in a fairly large city - Samara - about 1.2 million people.

You have the benefit of finding this forum BEFORE traveling.  You have the benefit of others advice.  At least do yourself a favor and follow the advice...  make a plan.

[Kuna]

I agree with the above.. You need a plan... but it's up to you what your plan is.

You need to consider your goals... what sort of traveller you normally are...  what your interests are... and what your goals are.

if you're going to FSU don't expect the women to fall over themselves to get to you, but it is possible to meet someone if you're there in "holiday mode".

If you're in a bigger city (Like Kiev or Dnepropetrovsk) you can get bye without speaking the language... Some people (especially under 30) speak a little English and you'll bump into  a few that speak good English.  In restaurants you'll find that some have English menus but not all.

Booking transport cold be more difficult but not impossible.  I caught buses by just asking people (OK,OK, a very attractive girl) on the street and wasn't overly surprised when she ended up speaking good English.

Learn the Cyrillic Alphabet and a few phrases.  Also learn numbers up to 100.

Here's my biggest piece of advice... If you're travelling, no matter what mode you're in or what plan you have... I'd be confident in saying you can always find an Internet cafe and you can ask questions here and be pretty confident you'll get quick answers to most things.

Some men seem to have problems with police but I never had.  maybe some attract more attention.  Thor's mate for instance earlier in the  week seemed to bring the trouble on.  If you're sensible and cautious you're unlikely to get in trouble.

(meeting women???  Plan ahead.. you need a plan if you expect or aim for success)

Best of luck!

Kuna

[slant]

Thanks for the advice... I was under the impression that most younger FSUW did speak at least some English... In every European country I have been to (except Spain, but I speak enough Spanish and understand a little more), the vast majority of girls my age did speak English and we made a point to get as far a way from American influence and other Navy/Marine personnel as possible... Everyone I met said that English is taught in all the schools now... So that is good to know that it isn't so much the case in the FSU...

I don't expect to have women "fall all over theselves to get me"... But on any given day I would expect to go out and meet, converse, have a good time and have the option of setting up a date with a women if we both so choose...

Before I go I plan on learning as much as I can about their language, laws, transportation systems and just overall culture... What I don't get by then language wise, I'll definitely bring one of those hand held electronic phrase translators...

I will be doing some planning, it just seemed to me that everyone who goes there without knowing someone, is on some kind of regimen... That's not my style (Its The Marine's fault)... I'm adventurous and I like to feel things out... Of course, if I plan the whole thing to a "T" I'll probably get to see and do more, but it just won't be as interesting  ... Just trying to gather info. for when I do make my trip and figure out what level of assistance I should plan/look for...

I/O what did you mean by "Battling the system"?

Again, I appreciate all the insight... -Slant

[RK]

Here is my question... Would you recommend going there without any of this planning? I am not real big on paying for tours, dates, phone #'s or addresses etc. Is this a necessity? Does it really up your odds that much? Also, what about the safety there? Would you recommend an American go there alone?

Stand-by for a million and one opinions on your first, second, and third question here. No one answer is "the way". What works for one may be the downfall of another. Just read what everyone writes, respect their feedback (most here anyway), and learn. Learn by reading and by doing.

I was once in a situation like you. I just finished photo and aircrew school with the Navy and decided to jump on a military flight to Europe all by myself for two weeks of leave. It was one of the most memorable experiences I'll always cherish. I traveled to Templehoff, EAST Germany at the time, followed by communist soldiers the entire time, met and interacted with people who didn't know a word of English. I even initiated conversation with some soviet troops that were there and ended up having a wonderful photo taken with them in front of the Brandenburg Gate.

Just over a year and a half ago I took off for the first time to Eastern Europe. I went to Moldova, Romania, and Lithuania, all alone, not knowing a word of a foreign language. I had my little dictionary and a spirit to see and experience this wonderful world we live in, while attempting to satisfy the curiosity I had about dating FSU women. Yes, many people in the FSU speak some English as you have experienced in other countries. However, as has been alluded to, you will find that more predominately in cities like Kiev, Moscow, etc. Just under a year and a half ago I made my first trip to Ukraine, alone, and am now engaged to the light of my life and travel there monthly. Use common sense and the specialized training I know you have received from the Marine Corps. in traveling abroad, and no matter what, you will have a wonderful experience. Every American that travels abroad has a great opportunity to reflect positively as an ambassador of our wonderful country, no matter what the reason. Unfortunately, many fail miserably in regard to the subject matter being discussed on this forum. Whatever country you travel to, remember you area a guest and respect the culture, land, and people of the country you choose to step foot on. Fortunately, you have found one of the best resources of information and people to offer you feedback in the right direction here.

[ScottinCrimea]

One of the biggest surprises for me the first time I visited Ukraine was the lack of people who spoke decent English.  I couldn't read the signs, I couldn't read the menus (very few restaurants had english menus) and if my future wife hadn't been there to help, i would have had a much more difficult time.  I know a few languages and thought that I could get by with those and my English, but once you step outside the usual tourist areas, it becomes very difficult.  Of course in the time I have lived in Ukraine I have met many who speak English very well, but on my first visit I didn't hear a word of English other than that spoken by my wife.

[Kuna]

Thanks for the advice... I was under the impression that most younger FSUW did speak at least some English... In every European country I have been to (except Spain, but I speak enough Spanish and understand a little more), the vast majority of girls my age did speak English and we made a point to get as far a way from American influence and other Navy/Marine personnel as possible... Everyone I met said that English is taught in all the schools now... So that is good to know that it isn't so much the case in the FSU...

I don't expect to have women "fall all over theselves to get me"... But on any given day I would expect to go out and meet, converse, have a good time and have the option of setting up a date with a women if we both so choose...

Before I go I plan on learning as much as I can about their language, laws, transportation systems and just overall culture... What I don't get by then language wise, I'll definitely bring one of those hand held electronic phrase translators...

I will be doing some planning, it just seemed to me that everyone who goes there without knowing someone, is on some kind of regimen... That's not my style (Its The Marine's fault)... I'm adventurous and I like to feel things out... Of course, if I plan the whole thing to a "T" I'll probably get to see and do more, but it just won't be as interesting  ... Just trying to gather info. for when I do make my trip and figure out what level of assistance I should plan/look for...

I/O what did you mean by "Battling the system"?

Again, I appreciate all the insight... -Slant

Slant...

I hope you didn't take the "faling over themselves" comment the wrong way...

You're ideas of being a bit flexible with your travel are good ones.  I too believe you'll have a much better time if you don't treat it like a race... but you should have a plan..

Enjoy the trip... experience the culture... meet some ladies...  and have the time of your life!

All the best!

Kuna

[Turboguy]

One thing you have not really said is what your goal is?   If you are looking to see the country and share some romance, yes, you can probably do just fine.  I have a feeling you are not wife hunting like many here.

As far as being safe, it is far safer there than walking the streets of LA, Baltimore, NYC or many other places in the USA.   Don't go looking for problems and you probably won't find them.   There are a few scams that go on and a few pickpockets but nothing too much to worry about.

The students these days all learn some English, they hear it in the songs and see it on tv.   Still they are rusty and don't count on everyone being fluent but if you have a problem and are in a major city you will find people who know some English.

You could write some gals in advance at places like freepersonals.ru to give yourself an edge but you can meet ladies on the streets or in the nightclubs.   Thor is the expert on the night club scene.   Look for the nightclubs to produce a woman you can dance with, drink with and enjoy some time with, not a wife.

[Mir]

When going to a new country with a language that we cannot understand the most vulnerable moment is when we first clear customs and step out through the arrivals door.
The problem can be worse if the flight was delayed and instead of getting there at 6 PM you arrive at 12 midnight (hapend to me once in Kiev and in the middle of winter as well).
So I recommend someone reliable waiting for you at the airport. He could get you to the place you are staying and maybe on the way point out a few things for you. After that most people can find their feet. Of course everyone is different and some need hand holding and some don't.

As others have mentioned, have a plan consistent with your goals. Acquire knowledge that helps you make a plan. And have at least some idea of a backup if plan A fails (whatever it was).

[I/O]

I/O what did you mean by "Battling the system"?

Just about everything you care to name will be totally different.  First, if you cant' read the language, which bus do you get on (On the tarmac) as you get off the plane at a given airport which happens to have both international and domestic status?  Do what I did when I arrived in UFA, get on the wrong bus because nobody spoke English and nobody was about to go out of their way to help a stupid foreigner after a 4 hour flight when everyone just wanted to do their own thing.  So idiot here gets on the wrong bus and goes to the international section (The bus BTW is about a 50 year old 10 wheeler semi trailer...sure no Greyhound coach) only to be abused hell west and crooked for being in the wrong place.  Yes eventually I got where I wanted to go, but not without raising the ire of a few officials.

You get umpteen hundred taxi drivers screaming at you for your business and you don't even know where you want to go.  Takes a little sorting out I can tell you.

Ok I wanted to download some images off my digital camera to makes some disk space.  Yes I found a suitable photo shop after some time (Krasnoyarsk BTW) maybe a 1/2 day of asking and not understanding directions etc etc.  Now I found the sweetest little 15 y/o girl in there who of course spoke NOT ONE WORD of English.  But give this kid credit.  She busted her little butt to figure out what I wanted.  After a lot of hand signals and picture drawing, she got it and got it dammed right.  I treasure that CD she made to this day, because she was just one that if you ever had a daughter, you would want one exactly like her, BUT 1 whole day gone just to download some pictures. (BTW much to the disgust of the photo store keeper, after I paid my whole 15 roubles I did go next door and buy this kid a nice box of chocolates for her troubles) If I had known someone to speak English or knew what I was doing, it would have taken maybe 30 minutes from end to end.

No English is NOT commonly spoken.  Everyone in school learns a few words, but will they recognise it from you? Doubtful. The younger women are the most likely to try to speak, but many of them are so shy about their English, they will avoid you. If you get to know someone a little, then yes they will try.  Younger men generally won't make any effort at all.  I have struck a few, but very few.

When you are in a rail station or the Moscow metro as I have been and an Englishman grabs you by the shirt from behind, just before you whack him across the chops, he blurts, "Do you speak English, Oh thank God", with a hopelessly distressed look on his face, you can't stop to help him because the whole crowd is pushing for their spot.  If he is lucky, he might be able to keep up with you until you find a break in the mob, so you can stop and point him in the right direction. (If you know your directions which is highly doubtful)

It is not the big ticket items which are the issue.  Flights from city to city are simple.  It is the basics of getting around, getting into queues, knowing which line you should be in.  What if you become ill and need medical attention? How do you say doctor or hospital in Russian? Ya' sure wont be callin' 911. You'll be kissin' your sorry butt goodbye and very few people will give a fat rats foot. 

Yes as a marine, you're used to figuring things out and for me it was a whole lot of fun, but get a clue, it is totally different from anything you've ever seen before.  Best example I can give you is this.  Been to New York? Been to Mexico City? Think of the difference and multiply that by at least 10 times and that gives you a small clue.  Hey Mr Russian tram driver, just wait whilst I key this into my E-translator.......yeah right......you'll be out on your arse watching the stinking thing disappear up the road and wonder why the hell you were ever so mad to pull this stunt on.

Try living on nothing but 7.5% beer and Russian hot dogs for 4 days straight because I was in a location where they were about the only things I could point and pay for. (BTW I virtually don't drink) Kinda makes ya sweat a little when you do a 14 mile walk to the airport dragging your luggage along the roadside because you couldn't find out which mini bus went there.  BTW none of them were about to stop that came screaming past me on the road.

Get the picture?  Sure freelancing can be fun, but at very least, get a few anchor points nailed down before you go and I'd suggest if I was starting now, I'd contact someone like Richard, pay him a few dollars to be available by phone if I was in need.  He could talk you through a situation or talk to a Russian person by phone for you.  I am not one for guides and terps, but I would use hired help to that extent. It's called BACKUP.  Get some.

I/O     

[jb]

Good post I/O.

Almost no one ever over estimates the language difficulty when planning their first trip.  Hell, I did a 6 month immersion course with Berlitz, private tutor and all, before I went over the first time and I was still in the dark when your average Russian starts speaking at machine gun rapid fire speed, using all of the rest of the Russian vocabulary and all the different cases and tenses my Russian instructor forgot to tell me about.  Trying to get an excited Russian to slow down is like trying to stop a runaway freight train.  Russian is a very daunting language.  Couple this with the notion that the average Russian will think it's great sport to send the stupid Amerikanski in the wrong direction if he's too stupid to get his act together.  That's a story that will be told with great relish over his next 3 bottles of vodka.

Going to western Europe on holiday without a plan is one thing, going to eastern Europe without a plan is quite a different kettle of fish.

[I/O]

Almost no one ever over estimates the language difficulty when planning their first trip. 

Couple this with the notion that the average Russian will think it's great sport to send the stupid Amerikanski in the wrong direction if he's too stupid to get his act together.  That's a story that will be told with great relish over his next 3 bottles of vodka.

  Ain't that the truth and not by half...!!!! Shame the beggers speak a different language because they think exactly like we do here.

I/O

[Turboguy]

Yes, but isn't all that what makes it fun, wonderful and memorable.   Otherwise it would be like a two week trip to Gary Indiana. 

If I ever posted the story of my first trip you would see more utter chaos, confusion and anguish than you could shake a stick at but it still makes it one of the most memorable trips of my life.

[I/O]

Turbo: Yes all that maybe right, but to advise anyone that doing things that way is safe or sensible is irresponsible.  BTW Nice pic of you two. Ya haven't scrubbed up too bad for an ol' geezer.

I/O

[RK]

Yes, but isn't all that what makes it fun, wonderful and memorable.   Otherwise it would be like a two week trip to Gary Indiana. 

If I ever posted the story of my first trip you would see more utter chaos, confusion and anguish than you could shake a stick at but it still makes it one of the most memorable trips of my life.

Exactly. I totally agree with the the spirit of what has been written on this post. As I/O says, it is good to have a backup or anchor point to a degree. I decided to go to East Berlin after I arrived at the air base in Rhein Mein (Germany), and venture from there. I decided to go to a little town in Lithuania known for their spas after I was in Vilnius a couple of days. I decided to go to a little town out in the middle of nowhere in Romania after I had been to Bucharest once and made some wonderful friends there. I visited a girl in the middle of nowhere in Poland a couple of years ago after having been there a couple times before with a previous girl friend. I ventured to Kharkov just under a year and a half ago for the first time knowing there was some English speakers there. I ventured to a couple of other cities from Kharkov after my confidence increased. I have followed that pattern many times. I highly recommend having a phone with a local sim card and storing a couple of contacts you can call if you get in dire straits, including the number to the US embassy in whatever country you venture to. And it's always a good idea to register on line with the embassy when you are in-country, and will help document your travels if you end up meeting that special person when it comes time to apply for any visa.

[Lit_1nce]

jb

First let me say, I admire anyone who can tackle the Russian language !!   I tried a little with Pimsleur, and all I can say is wow..  German (also through Pimsleur) was much easier for me and made about halfway through German III.

I have to nitpick (a little)  I think the term immersion is usually meant that the person is learning in country.. Unless that is like a Berliz brand for a course.. ?

Again kudos to all who make the effort in learning new languages. Makes travel more fun wherever you go !

[Turboguy]

Turbo: Yes all that maybe right, but to advise anyone that doing things that way is safe or sensible is irresponsible.  BTW Nice pic of you two. Ya haven't scrubbed up too bad for an ol' geezer.

I/O

Thanks for the compliment.   Safe and sensable is not that unsafe or unsesnsable.   It is not any worse then being in japan with no japaneese or anywhere else without language. 

The odds of him getting killed are very minimal.  At worst he makes a fool out of himself a time or two and can laugh about it for decades.   I think it is more ackward and embarrasing than anything but quite an experience.

[jb]

I have to nitpick (a little)  I think the term immersion is usually meant that the person is learning in country.. Unless that is like a Berliz brand for a course.. ?

Of course you are free to nitpick if you want to, but the way it was structured was 6 hours a day/7 days a week in a room where only Russian was spoken.  Since I was pretty much covered up, it was immersion to me.

[Turboguy]

It sounds like immersion to me.   We are trying our own version of immersion language learning.   Locked together 7 days a week, 24 hours a day she either will learn a lot of English this summer or one or both of us will go totally crazy and only babble incoherently

[catzenmouse]

Like others have said: Wingin' It on your own will be a real experience but wingin' it with backup contacts/plan would be a lot smarter way to go about this. Seems you've been comfortable going this route before so you have a good idea of what is in store. If that is your style of travel then there is nothing wrong with it. Would be very beneficial to have a decent amount of language to help get around.

Ken

P. S.

It sounds like immersion to me.   We are trying our own version of immersion language learning.   Locked together 7 days a week, 24 hours a day she either will learn a lot of English this summer or one or both of us will go totally crazy and only babble incoherently

TG,

 You are just tormenting me with stuff like this. You KNOW that I've instantly got a smart @ss comment and it just KILLS me to let it go...

[KenC]

Ken,
Would it be something like this?

By now we are all used to your incoherent babble, Turbo!
 
KenC