What is 'rich' by Western standards?

[Lily]

[quote author=I/O link=topic=5497.msg97352#msg97352 date=1185838175

 My question to you is, are you seeking information for personal interest or do your questions form part of some sort of research project?

I/O
[/quote]

It is not my for personal interest, or better to say, not for my guidance.   Neither I do any research. Btw, I got the info from the Wikipedia about the issue and later rephrased my question. As correctly mentioned, I asked mostly on spending habits.

Just curious.

[Lily]

I see lots of people with incomes well in excess of their $ 250,00 mark that can't pay their electric bill.   I have known people with incomes close to a million that could not get by and worried constantly about money.
 

I wonder how does that come?  What would they do with their money?

[TigerPaws]

Lily,

Where to begin with that question, I have known people worth near 100 million who could not bring themselves to spend anymore than they absolutely had to and I have know people who spent every dime they could get. Spending money even big money is easy, fancy homes (often several) fancy cars (often many) expensive dinners can run $500.00 and up for 2 people.

In very general terms how much you make is less important than how you live, simply because someone is wealthy has little to do with how generous or stingy they are.

TigerPaws

[catzenmouse]

VWRW sitting next to me disagrees totally with me however.

Ray,

 By now I think you should have learned about this.

 1) You are wrong. You have always been wrong. You always will be wrong.

 2) VWRW is right. VWRW has always been right. VWRW always will be right.

 Write that down and repeat it several times a day. If you get confused read what you wrote. Soon everything will be okay and you won't need to worry about anything. 

Ken

[IAmZon]

Lilly - everything posted is true.  But I can see that this can make you more confused than clear minded.

Finances are complex in the US! It is not just how much one makes as a "salary" at a job.  There are many other financial things to consider.

It is possible for a good, honest man to have a modest, 40 hour a week job, and not make high salary( $50,000 - $ 75,000), but behave conservatively in spending and save.  After a time (5 - 10 years), that person can have security and comfort most would consider rich.

It is also possible for a person to have a "important" job, and make a high salary ($150,000 - 250,000), but spend too much.  INT THE US, THIS IS VERY EASY TO DO!!!  Most people who make high salaries, spend way too much on food, cloths, cars .... and, in truth are only 90 - 120 days of being in financial trouble IF the money flow from their salary is interrupted.

And, then there is consumer credit!  Which gives almost everyone the ability to spend too much, regardless of their income.

Then, there are those who invest, or start businesses.  These situations are more unpredictable still!  Sometimes, a very average person get lucky - and can make $100,000 of dollars.  Sometimes, a very excellent person makes a smart investment - and looses $100,000 of dollars.

There are those who have accumulated enough NOT to worry about such things.  These people of few.

I think to measure an American man's wealth, you should consider his skills and abilities (his income earning potential); and his health as stated above.  most things that ARE today, are subject to change tomorrow.

Hope this helps.

[Turboguy]

Ray,

 By now I think you should have learned about this.

 1) You are wrong. You have always been wrong. You always will be wrong.

 2) VWRW is right. VWRW has always been right. VWRW always will be right.

 Write that down and repeat it several times a day. If you get confused read what you wrote. Soon everything will be okay and you won't need to worry about anything. 

Ken

Ken, you are totally right and I figured that one out a long time ago.  With any Russian woman if they think you are wrong the only thing to do is let them figure it out for themselves.  You can be 100% sure but that does not mean anything unless they are also 100% sure.   The only thing that helps is that they are pretty smart.

In very general terms how much you make is less important than how you live, simply because someone is wealthy has little to do with how generous or stingy they are.

TigerPaws

I think it has far more to do with how foolish you are or are not and your own ability to control your urges for gratification.

Something I heard a long time ago and believe is someone said, "If you took all the money (and worth) in the world (or America) and put it into a big pile and then divided it equally among all the people, in 5 years those who had money at the start would have it again and those who had nothing at the start would have it again.

I believe it was "INC" magazine that does or used to run an article analzing the financial problems of a couple and trying to give them advice about how to solve their money problems.   It always amazed me that the couple they were analyzing were something like him with an income of $ 250,000 a year and her with an income of $ 175,000 and between them they did not have a pot to piss in.   Of course when you looked at their finances they had no self control at all.

Then you can take a look at some of the big celebrities.   Michael Jackson has money problems and it is not his legal fees.   Tons of big name celebrities have money problems even though they might be making 20 million or more a year.   They think it will go on for ever and they need to feel important.

I think one of the keys is that if you spend less than you make long enough then you will eventually reach the point where you can spend whatever you want and not worry about it.

[davidbdc]

To answer the question with some numbers:

Rich in USA:
1. Net worth of $10MM that generates at least $300K in income per year
2. Small Business Owner that generates $500K per year in income
3. Professional earning more than $500K

Wealthy in USA:
1. Net worth of $5MM that generates at least $150K in income per year.
2. Small Business Owner that generates $300K per year in income
3. Professional earning more than $200K per year

Doing well in USA:
1. Net Worth 1.5MM that generates at least $50K in income per year
2. Small Business owner that generates $100K per year in income
3. Professional earning more than $100K per year

2. and 3. included because small business owners generally earning that amount have a steady source of income (though there is always risk) and professionals have an even more probably source of income at those income levels, both have great likelihoods of ending up with the net worth of #1 (assuming they don't spend all of their money)

Hope that helps.

[Globetrotter]

Billionaire Bunker Hunt of the famous "Hunt brothers" who tried to corner the silver market (and lost) was once asked: "What are you worth?"  His answer, "If you know what you're worth, you're not worth enough."

I have a billionaire friend industrialist in England.  Her name was listed in our Chicago Tribune as one of the top 10 richest people in the UK, and I told her I saw the article.  She laughed and said, "As if I could write a check for that amount."  I said to my friend, "It's not how big a check you can write, but how much you can borrow."  She just smiled and nodded.

[SANDRO43]

I get seasick anyway.. a week or maybe two is quite ok, a day or two better.

Usually it's the other way round, are you sure they assembled you correctly ?

[docetae]

When scrolling through the RWG threads, I discovered a posting made by MaxxumUSA. He suggested asking a RW prospect what she considers as being rich.
Quote:

"What do you consider rich? 

BTW - she considers a family "Rich" if they can afford a nice flat, serviceable vehicles that are fairly new and not breaking down, and able to go on holiday 2+ times a year."

I realize that in different social groups this may differ a lot, but I'd stil be curious what would a middle-class educated (say, a Master's level) American person consider to be rich by their standards? What standard of life is deemed to be the usual norm? What expenses would belong to that?

Thanks everyone!

Rich for me, means I will be able to retire and to stay with the same income, so I need 3 Millions in my bank account . You can send money order to "Support docetae future" special fund.
To be rich for me, means I will have no more the need to work, except for my pleasure and keep the same level of income than today. The real richest is more the ability to do what I want when I want with no worries about the end of the month. This is my medium term goal

about expenses, what I avoid always is to borrow ... I prefer to wait to get the budget and only after I do  what I have planned. I fix my goals : to change the car every 3 years, to travel at least 4 times per year, etc. and I do my budget in consequence, calculating the earning needed and adjusting if necessary. If I earn more than planned, this go to the "wish list".

[BradSTL]

I'd stil be curious what would a middle-class educated (say, a Master's level) American person consider to be rich by their standards?

Lily--- you can actually get income numbers for American incomes over the internet.  I have post some of the websites below.  Notice one thing... this term * MEDIAN INCOME *.  When you see the salaries listed, these * median incomes * mean that half of all salaries in an area are MORE than this dollar amount;  and that the other half of all salaries in an area are LESS than this dollar amount.  Its the "middle number", these median income figures.

The U-S Congress believes when a single person earns more than $88,850 in ordinary income (that is, income from wages, salaries, tips, etc) they are rich.  These people must pay the alternative minimum tax.  Congress reduces their deductions and tax credits they use to lower their income taxes, so Congress is certain that rich people are paying income taxes.  That is one guide to when a person becomes rich in America.

Check these websites and see if it does not help you understand what most Americans earn in a year:

Look under the section titled:  Income and the section Regions at: http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/002484.html

At this website: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104688.html... look under the section Nativity of Households.   Lily- you will notice that naturalized citizens (like Russians who move to America and become citizens) live in households that earn MORE money than native-born Americans.    Does that tell you something?

At this website:  http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?_pageId=tp6_income_employment... you can find the median (middle) incomes for various types of work, in various cities around America.

You can also look at:

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2005/10/27/richest-cities-US-cx_sc_1028home_ls.html for the richest cities in America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States... to learn more about *Household Incomes in America*.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104552.html... shows incomes by race in America.

This can you give a start on how much Americans earn.  Multiply the dollar amounts by the amount of rubles a dollar can purchase (about 25 rubles at the time I post) and it gives you an idea of the "purchasing power" of a currency, in a general way, not exact.  Good luck!

[Misha]

As far as I can observe on Russian middle class people, they seem to perceive that big spendings as such is good..if you count your money, you are cheap, if you say 'it is expensive', it means that you cannot afford it rather than 'the price is unreasonable'. Or probably the Russian media uses that 'generous' side of the Russian soul?

Lily, how do you define the Russian middle class? Russian experts find it quite challenging to define what the Russian middle class is and measuring it. This article (http://www.kp.ru/daily/23852.3/63128/ it is in Russian) does provide an interesting discussion on what it means to be in the Russian middle-class.

How much does the middle-class in Russia earn? According to Russian sociologists: the Russian average would be 10,427 per individual in the family and 14,453 roubles in Moscow. Simply put, if you earn more than $500 US per month in Moscow, you are considered part of the middle-class. How many people are part of the middle-class? Well, in reading a number of articles in Russian, the general figure that is put forward is up to 20% in all of Russia and close to 30% in Moscow.

Having been to Moscow, I can attest that someone who is defined as part of the Russian middle-class can't simply go into one of Moscow's premiere Restaurant and order whatever they want without thinking of the price. If they do, they won't do it very often because they will likely spend the equivalent of a month or more of salary for the pleasure of dining out. Moscow is after all the most expensive city in the world.

I would therefore conclude that most Russians that are labeled middle-class have to "count their money." Only the very wealthy can spend as much as their Russian Soul wants without having to worry about selling their inomarka (foreign car) to pay for it :-)

[FredC]

Personally I always like the explaination that when you are rich,your money works for you, instead of the other way around.

[Lily]

Lily, how do you define the Russian middle class? Russian experts find it quite challenging to define what the Russian middle class is and measuring it. This article (http://www.kp.ru/daily/23852.3/63128/ it is in Russian) does provide an interesting discussion on what it means to be in the Russian middle-class.

How much does the middle-class in Russia earn? According to Russian sociologists: the Russian average would be 10,427 per individual in the family and 14,453 roubles in Moscow. Simply put, if you earn more than $500 US per month in Moscow, you are considered part of the middle-class. How many people are part of the middle-class? Well, in reading a number of articles in Russian, the general figure that is put forward is up to 20% in all of Russia and close to 30% in Moscow.

Having been to Moscow, I can attest that someone who is defined as part of the Russian middle-class can't simply go into one of Moscow's premiere Restaurant and order whatever they want without thinking of the price. If they do, they won't do it very often because they will likely spend the equivalent of a month or more of salary for the pleasure of dining out. Moscow is after all the most expensive city in the world.

I would therefore conclude that most Russians that are labeled middle-class have to "count their money." Only the very wealthy can spend as much as their Russian Soul wants without having to worry about selling their inomarka (foreign car) to pay for it :-)

With some caution, I'd define the Russian middle class as people who have certain degree of economic independence, but not a great deal of social influence or power. I'd count the social factors as education, professional status, behaviour, culture. The middle class are those who have to work in order to live, that would be one of main distinctions from the upper class; however, their salaries may allow them to take mortgages on homes that are worth millions.

As on the salary level - it depends a lot on location, on profession and skills. It varies quite a lot.

[Jet]

I guess I missed this thread the first time around...

How is a person perceived by his or her class fellows if he strives to maintain the same lifestyle by spending less money? I mean, if he wants to be member of same clubs, travelling to same expensive destinations, consuming the high quality things but by paying less than the other people have to pay for it?

There are people who prefer to spend their money in a smart way, by soliciting service packages of same quality but for less, by making market investigations and trying to get most of it but for less. Would that behaviour be valued in the West or rather condemned for being 'cheap'?

It depends on the circumstance, I will illustrate with two examples:

1) A guy I worked with many years ago drove 87 miles to save $20 on a pair of glasses - Everyone considered him 'cheap' and stupid. Sure he had an extra $20 in his pocket, but he wasted 4 hours of his time and added to the "wear and tear" on his vehicle (company paid for the gas he wasted)

2) My wife shopped for Airline tickets a few years back, the initial price she was quoted was $2,500 for 2 R/T tickets Miami>Moscow on Lufthansa. After consulting with a few travel agents (maybe 3 hours of internet/phone work) she was able to get the exact same tickets on the exact same plane for $2,150 and keep an extra $350 in her/our pocket. I and all of our friends/colleagues looked at it as being very smart.

Shopping for better deals is not a bad thing in itself, but when one takes it to extremes, they are looked at in a bad way. Personally, I have always tried to measure cost vs value. If it is something I want or need, and it appears to be a good value for the price, I'll buy it; if it doesn't I'll shop for a better price.

[AnastassiaAsh]

The less debt the better, the more savings in the bank the better, the faster you can pay off mortgage for the smaller interest rate the better, the more savings you have for your kids the better, the more ‘points’ or ‘miles’ you can use the better.....with all that, for me personally, the closer you are to the big city the better. This is my definition of the road to monetary wealth.

As to cheap scrooges  , it is a complex thing. This is ingrained into American mentality and way of living, the same way as Lily pointed about overspending with Russians.

At the end of the day between a man who suits me in everything otherwise and he is a scrooge, and the man who suits me in everything and he spends more than he should, without a doubt in my heart I will always choose a smart scrooge than an irresponsible spender. But of course the best is to be reasonable and try to be somewhere in the middle.

By the way, another twist on being healthy. Here in the US healthy means – less or no medical expenses, smaller medical insurance, less money thrown away, more money saved…and we are talking about really big amounts of money… Simple cold hits your wallet fast and hard, anything more serious and you may be in trouble. That's why, I think, Americans are obsessed also with gyms and running, no smoking and things like that. Good for them. 

the definition of "Rich" in my family is having the lifestyle you desire without having to work another day to maintain it.  Money making money. Working because one is passionate about the work rather than coerced by the situation to bring home a paycheck.  The amount of acquired assets to achieve this will vary tremendously in different parts of the west as well as at what 'level' of lifestyle one is satisfied. 

I totally agree with this.

"It's not how big a check you can write, but how much you can borrow."  She just smiled and nodded.

Wow, this is very good. But I would say – if you can live without borrowing at all! We use a debit card most of the time, credit very rarely. I make sure we spend less or much less than what we have and only AFTER we have it. 

And Jet, you are very right, looking for deals or other ways of saving money vs. time spending doing that – should be taken into consideration.

Now the question for you, guys, and I am sure Lily and other women on this board will be interested to know, is the following -

How can a woman find out all these financial details from a man without offending him or being too nosy or labeled 'materialistic'?
She is just trying to get what she deserves, what she is used to and what she can share with him too. And of course the sooner she finds out the better, but she can't even start asking these things during first weeks of the relationship! What if she finds out that her man has a big debt and is not getting out of it any time soon? Time and emotions are lost and thrown away!

[Lily]

I think I told my opinion on the man's financial standing some time ago. I'd be interested to know a particular part of it.

[docetae]

How can a woman find out all these financial details from a man without offending him or being too nosy or labeled 'materialistic'?
She is just trying to get what she deserves, what she is used to and what she can share with him too. And of course the sooner she finds out the better, but she can't even start asking these things during first weeks of the relationship! What if she finds out that her man has a big debt and is not getting out of it any time soon? Time and emotions are lost and thrown away!

With Anna, this is something we started to talk about withing first weeks I have read somewhere that some people have more difficulties to talk about money than sex... I think men must be aware of this and talk about as soon this subject is started. In our case, the topic starting the talk was about Anna's apartment. This was perfect to start a talk about finance and our own views on this topic, now and within a couple.
We exposed details, what I can afford for travels, etc. Like me she is planning budget one year in advance, so all was perfect

[turniptruck]

To answer the question with some numbers:

Rich in USA:
1. Net worth of $10MM that generates at least $300K in income per year
2. Small Business Owner that generates $500K per year in income
3. Professional earning more than $500K

Wealthy in USA:
1. Net worth of $5MM that generates at least $150K in income per year.
2. Small Business Owner that generates $300K per year in income
3. Professional earning more than $200K per year

Doing well in USA:
1. Net Worth 1.5MM that generates at least $50K in income per year
2. Small Business owner that generates $100K per year in income
3. Professional earning more than $100K per year

2. and 3. included because small business owners generally earning that amount have a steady source of income (though there is always risk) and professionals have an even more probably source of income at those income levels, both have great likelihoods of ending up with the net worth of #1 (assuming they don't spend all of their money)

Hope that helps.

I would agree with this.  Many of the numbers one sees are 'household' numbers which can confuse someone in trying to determine income distributions. 

http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/perinc/new02_001.htm


                                               Single            Married
                                               (Never              Spouse    Spouse
                                      Total  Married)     Total   Present    Absent   Widowed  Divorced
BOTH SEXES
Total
18 Years and Over
  Total
Median income..(dollars)........     26,414    19,436    31,338    31,902    22,220    16,915    29,382
   Standard error..(dollars)....         66       152        80        83       226       127       296
Mean income..(dollars)..........     38,317    26,921    44,321    45,242    30,777    24,748    39,016
   Standard error..(dollars)....        139       207       204       215       547       264       397
Gini ratio......................      0.493     0.487     0.486     0.485     0.457     0.434     0.449
   Standard error...............     0.0022    0.0044    0.0028    0.0028    0.0113    0.0089    0.0065
B-Cell..........................      1,249     1,249     1,249     1,249     1,249     1,249     1,249
PINC-02. Marital Status--People 18 Years Old and Over, by Total Money Income in 2006,
Work Experience in 2006, Age, Race, Hispanic Origin, and Sex

I'm not sure how the formating will make this look.  Regardless the median income is $26k and the mean is $38k.  These numbers are badly skewed with many young people earning lower wages.  I would guess the numbers should be higher for an 'adult'.

On the lower end of 'wealthy' one needs to consider the general cost of living in that area.   $100k in California vs. 100k in Alabama will have significant differences.  The same with whether or not he is divorced or not.  This can be very significant.  If he is divorced once it could be half his assets.  A man divorced twice could be looking at 1/4 of his potential assets or less.

I'm not sure what RW views are on 'market based rewards'.  In broad terms, those who provide what the 'market' wants will be rewarded.  Some professions are very difficult and result in few people being able to do those functions such as medicine.  Others have undertaken the risk of starting a small business where their income will be based on their ability to meet their customer's needs.  I think I read at one point that 9/10 restaurants fail.  I'm not sure if it's accurate but it would not surprise me if the number was close.

If I were a RW, the first thing I would do is go where the money is.  In this case, I think there is a significant risk premium placed on FSU women due to the probability of being scammed.  Given that men are risk averse, it makes sense that many would go to EM.  I did a cursory look yesterday at the first few pages of men and the quality of men there was outstanding.  It made me want to sign up and write to them   Seriously though, of the American men I looked at, I would say at least half probably earn over $100k.  And that is being conservative I think (if what they posted was accurate).  In general, look for doctors and people with authority/responsibility.  These can be managers, project managers, vice presidents, CIO to name a few of the titles I saw listed. 

Consulting is a little more tricky.  Some of the highest paid jobs are in consulting but depending on how much drive one has, a woman could find herself talking to a guy who does a few jobs a year where he gets paid a lot for the work makes average money due to not working.

Swimming in the right pond I think helps to increase ones odds.  It also appears that there are large numbers of available men.  If you look again at EM and use the age parameters of 18-99, one finds 1700+ pages of men and 300+ pages of women.  I'm not sure how the activity breakdown is but regardless as a FSUW, the odds look promising.

Happy hunting!

[Lily]

Swimming in the right pond I think helps to increase ones odds.  It also appears that there are large numbers of available men.  If you look again at EM and use the age parameters of 18-99, one finds 1700+ pages of men and 300+ pages of women.  I'm not sure how the activity breakdown is but regardless as a FSUW, the odds look promising.

 

turniptruck, the odds are less promising due to the fact that, as soon as AM land ElenasModels, their requirements to women do skyrocket almost to the level of a spoiled RM

There are really a lot of men, but if you look at those profiles, your level of enthusiasm may go a bit down.

Sometimes, when making search from the top on page, I try to guess what a particular man would require in a woman while scrolling down slowly. The more interesting the man is on his photos and in his texts, the higher is a bar for his desired woman. For instance, they seldom accept a RW older than 30-35, even if they are older themselves.

[turniptruck]

Lily, I hear ya.  But consider the alternatives.  If you look at many other sites the men are not nearly as 'attractive'.  It works the other way though as well.  If you make average money for a guy, the ladies will be less inclined.  Everything else being equal, if I were a FSUW, EM would look promising due to the quality and quantity of men available. 

[Lily]

I'd say something opposite - for WM, the choice on women at EM look very promising...EM's selling point is Beauty Sells.`

It seems that the EM is for FSUW who could apply for Miss Universe here and now, and who was born at a certain time ago.

[turniptruck]

I'd say something opposite - for WM, the choice on women at EM look very promising...EM's selling point is Beauty Sells.`

It seems that the EM is for FSUW who could apply for Miss Universe here and now, and who was born at a certain time ago.

I agree.  The women on that site are all beauties.  Consider 6326202, great looks, educated, intelligent and classy.  I'm sure she would make any man a great wife.  Certainly better than Miss Universe   Keep the faith, your prince will come.

[myrddin]

Now the question for you, guys, and I am sure Lily and other women on this board will be interested to know, is the following -

How can a woman find out all these financial details from a man without offending him or being too nosy or labeled 'materialistic'?
She is just trying to get what she deserves, what she is used to and what she can share with him too. And of course the sooner she finds out the better, but she can't even start asking these things during first weeks of the relationship! What if she finds out that her man has a big debt and is not getting out of it any time soon? Time and emotions are lost and thrown away!

Spending time and emotions is tough, and I don't see any way to avoid that risk.  I think my dad called it "life".

At some point there's a natural exploration of financial issues.  On the first date that's a red flag, and I don't think there's any useful solid rule about when to bring it up, but once it's clear that you like each other enough to consider a real future together it's not being nosy.  I don't know how other men might react, but I wouldn't be offended, just make sure I'm in a good mood   

So, ladies, I'm just curious: assume you met someone you really like and who seems like a great match for you in every other way, but you discover some financial problems (not quite as bad as what Anastassia implies, but something).  Do you dump him?

[Serebro]

So, ladies, I'm just curious: assume you met someone you really like and who seems like a great match for you in every other way, but you discover some financial problems (not quite as bad as what Anastassia implies, but something).  Do you dump him?

it depends on the WAY he mentions these financial problems.
if he says everything is fine to attract me and later I know he is a liar I will "dump" him, just because of telling lies as telling lies, cheating and being "weak" are 3 main things that I would never forgive.