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Author Topic: The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)  (Read 7332 times)

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Offline I/O

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The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)
« on: July 30, 2007, 05:18:05 AM »
Re: Cyber brides in the Americas and the Trans national Routes of U.S. Masculinity
(Essay attached below)

In the following it is my intention to consider the “Conclusions” drawn by the author Felicity Schaeffer-Grabiel and thereby highlight how your governments money, (Your money) is being spent on so called academic research grants.  I will pre-empt my discourse in saying that I have long been and am a firm supporter of equal rights and or opportunities for women world wide.  Nevertheless I have observed an overplaying of the hand by the more extreme end of the various “Feminist Movements” or as I lightly describe them, the “Feminazis”.  I note the author refers to “My Type” somewhat scathingly on numerous occasions throughout the wider article.

Being substantially less educated and less resourced than the author, I have chosen to focus on the conclusions drawn and I leave it to the reader to research the article proper and in so doing draw one’s own conclusion. I hope to perhaps motivate some who have greater literary talent and more extensive academic capacity than myself to expand on this or perhaps write more extensively on this subject which is dear to many of our hearts.   

Quote
The desire for a Latin American woman from outside the United States speaks to the power of the erotic imagination and the role of technology in transporting one’s personal fantasies into a trans national social forum.

There is nothing new in the so called transporting of erotic fantasies across borders or oceans.  Solomon apparently did this 600 times or more several thousand years ago. Christians and Scientists alike, largely agree on the course of history in this respect. International relationships have existed since the beginning of recorded history.  The various European and Eastern Monarchs availed themselves of foreign partners at various stages throughout history.  As recently as Queens Elizabeth II of England, Monarchs have pursued foreign partners. (The Duke of Edinburgh being Greek) The Now Prince of Denmark had chosen to plot a similar course in marrying an Australian. The author studiously ignores history in an attempt to imply this pursuit of a foreign partner as something new or recent. By ignoring history the author undermines the articles credibility regardless of the erroneous conclusions.

The explicit use of the word “Fantasy” in and of itself suggests something “Un Real” and although this could be and perhaps is true in many cases, it is far from the reality as is held testimony to by the number of Fiancé’ and Spouse visa applications receipted by the various Immigration departments of countries world wide. Therefore the use of such words is clearly a play on the emotions of any potential reader, misleading and an attempt to pervert the thinking of any commentator.

Further, the writer reaches for the term “Erotic Imagination”.  Eroticism may well play a part in this entire process, does it not play a part in ANY heterosexual relationship? (I deliberately exclude same sex relationships in this instance as they are rare in this pursuit) However, imagination is a word scuttled by the 4000, or more Finace’ visas processed in the USA each and every year. These are very real events with real people and imagination is not a significant factor.   
 
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The self-help model of individual transformation hijacks the feminist model of consciousness-raising, evacuating its radical potential through personalizing social transformation, and makes evident self-help’s genealogical roots within Christianity and Western individualism.


The writer appears (In the wider article) to take some issue with the use of internet discussions boards by western men to re establish their own thinking and priorities. The writer refers to them as “self help” forums and draws parallel with Protestant Christianity, whereby one comes, confesses all, is counselled and establishes themselves as a complete and stand alone person.  In the first instance this is flawed thinking as Protestantism focuses on a totally different means of personal salvation.  Protestantism at its root is totally focused on the masterful control of the higher being and the total inadequacy of the individual or other humans to provide any means of ultimate salvation.

Internet discussion boards are often exactly as the writer says, “Self Help” tools.  However the writer fails to understand the dynamics of exactly what occurs in such forums. 

Contrary to the author’s conclusion, discussion boards do raise consciousness within the individual and thereby, very often an awareness of achievability and or limitations.  The writer assumes the intent of every individual is to change or alter the course of global or national social history by embarking on this pursuit.  The majority of individuals writing on this matter have little or no interest in changing social history, nor have they even considered the same. 

The overwhelming majority are “Individuals” first and last.  They are focused on their personal contentment and long term companionship.  To this extent the authors term “Western Individualism” bares some respect. The primary intent of most men joining internet discussion boards is to increase the number of “Tools in their kit” through the sharing of ideas, questions and experiences.

Quote
Men’s search for a Latin American bride necessitates a critique of U.S. capitalist culture, yet men and industry Web sites ghettoize this critique onto U.S. feminist bodies rather than onto larger structures of power. In other words, men blame consumption, materialism, and even greed for high divorce rates, for the fact that women leave them for wealthier and younger men, or that women seek their own empowerment through entering the workforce.


Again the article fails to recognise that “Wider Structures of Power” are constructed on a basis of a series of smaller power structures.  The author is almost communistic in thinking at this point but would probably argue socialistic.  Regardless, the author refuses to recognise the subjects mentioned do form a conduit if not a funnel for many marriages to travel through unhindered towards divorce.

I have noticed less than 10% of men involved on internet discussion boards object to women working or developing a career and the comments by the author are indicative of the general misunderstanding many feminist movements hold of the male attitude to women working. 

Further, I would point out that the almost “Father” of Protestantism, which the author appears to have issue with, Martin Luther’s wife was a capitalist of the first order, regularly involved in real estate transactions and assets management whilst her husband attended more abstract matters.  Martin Luther was neither a career man nor a business man, in fact he once described his wife, somewhat sarcastically, as that “Wealthy Woman”. He further remarked he considered hands were made with fingers so that money could slip through with ease, such was his interest in commerce or finance. To depart slightly from the script, he also remarked on another occasion, which I have no doubt has raised the ire of many feminists over the years, “Women should recite the Lords Prayer before opening their mouths” in response to a table interjection from his wife. 

The key here is understanding the male thinking in this respect.  In its simplest form, it allows for women to develop their own identity in social and corporate society but not at the expense of family and spouse as first priority.  The rounded male extols the virtues of womanhood and dignifies her unique ability in child bearing and or nursing. The feminist movements appear to almost demonise and certainly discount the social and or economic benefit thereof.

The feminist belief in “Empowerment by Career” has taken a heavy blow from the group of men who embark on this pursuit because some of these women in their belief have in reality lost the respect of the men involved and it would appear feel wholey insulted by men turning their backs and looking elsewhere, much less having the audacity to claim normalcy in so doing, hence the Feminists have defeated the original purpose of their intent.   

Quote
Mirroring the tension between the global economy and the state in protecting the unbounded needs of capitalism and, conversely, the bounded role of the state (Noble 2002), men justify their search outside the nation for foreign genes through a moral desire to improve the national family and, simultaneously, via fantasies of mobility through the tropes of empire and the heroics of global manhood. Through their desire to improve the culture of national family, they are caught in the dilemma of embracing ethnic, gender, religious, and national differences while maintaining global hierarchies.

Here again the article sways much of its weight on the erroneous assumption of men being interested in improving the national family.  Such conclusion places a far greater academic thought encumbrance upon this pursuit than is actual reality. The men involved in this pursuit are most often, not as the article claims, interested in superior genetics or disinterested in the local genetics, but rather they are concerned with attitudes.  Most men recognise a substantial percentage of the genetics originate from the same pool regardless, albeit if diluted slightly by history.

Nevertheless, in my personal experience some Russian, Asian and Latin women will argue their superior genetics through greater purity of race.  I have seen arguments for and against the hypotheses and as such have not researched nor formed an opinion on the same.

Global hierarchies are a political and economic reality of history, but to draw a parallel with men reaching beyond their geographic borders in order to find the most suitable life partner is somewhat comical at best.  Most men have no desire to infuse another nation with their own specific genetics, but rather, will bring their mate to their own country.  If bringing a few thousand women to the USA each year is likely to dilute the genetics of the target countries to any degree, one must wonder about published population figures within those target countries.  Russia, 140 million plus people, Mexico, 60 million plus people, South East Asia, several hundred million.  The notion almost pales into the ridiculous when given serious consideration.


Quote
The consequences of men’s imaginaries are best reflected in an e-mail interview with Manuela, a Mexicana who participated in the Latinaesposa/Latinawife e-mail exchange for married women who moved to the United States to live with their husbands. She has been married to her Anglo husband for more than three years. In an e-mail interview she described to me one of the many contradictions discussed by women: “While men want a Latina because she is supposedly more passionate, when we have this passion, they don’t know how to respond. Men prefer Internet pornography than to make love with us. They’d rather watch perfect women than normal and real women. All of us agree that we can’t compete with these unreal bodies, that don’t fight, that don’t get angry, who don’t veer from the norm. . . . It’s easier for los gringos to masturbate in front of the computer, where they don’t have to put forth any effort to satisfy anyone.

Undoubtedly and evidently an extreme generalisation, however, I would agree that a number of men I have seen travelling abroad in search of a partner might very well fit this description.  I also suspect that many men who have become accustomed to physical intimacy being placed on some kind of “Reward Platform” would be quite overwhelmed with the reality of a more passionate foreign wife.

I would agree that many western men have become romantically lazy to an extent and therefore, at least in part, contribute to the dissatisfaction of western women.  Further, many men hold the desire to be the “Hunter” and when involved with a partner who is intimately more aggressive or forthcoming may well tend to withdraw through ignorance or inability to share control.  Whilst rather crude, I suspect the above does capture the essence of the behaviours of some men in this pursuit.  However to generalise to the extent of saying men pur se’ are of this mind is clearly misleading, if not blatantly false. 


Quote
Like many things here (in the US), [U.S. men are] . . . the most individualistic and
self-absorbed” (interview, December 10, 2004). Manuela’s theorizing of Western individualism, masculinity, and whiteness in relation to technological power ends up deflating Western fantasies as getting lost in the maze of their own simulations. The role of the Internet in facilitating visual and interactive fantasies and even marriage speaks to yet another way U.S. individualism and the capitalistic gaze turn a potentially powerful means for men to experience themselves as a decentered subject rather than the centre.


To state USA men are the most individualistic and self absorbed is to display one’s lack of worldly knowledge under a blazing light.  One needs but to travel the African continent, observe some tribal structures and listen to the women folk there to immediately see the error of this conclusion.  Much less when one associates with some from other first world nations.

I credit the author in this instance for referring to the interviewee’s comments as “Theorising”.  It is notable that the author distances herself somewhat in this element of her conclusions which is suggestive of less than complete concurrence.

The author further eludes to criticism of men using the internet as a self centred tool in this pursuit.  Certainly! Most men who are seeking a partner will make no apology for that, nor should any women seeking a partner by whatever means.  The first motivation in seeking a partner is a selfish one by any measure.  Self fulfilment, self satisfaction, companionship and physical satisfaction, to name but a few of the selfish drivers. Successful relationships depend largely on whether or not those initial selfish motivations can be translated into selfless assimilation with another human of similar mind. Therefore I suggest the author is resorting to wordiness rather than enlightening information to develop a conclusion which she hopes will gain some traction among the readers.   

Quote
While many men turn to Latin American women and culture in hopes of living a life outside of the tyranny of capitalism, materialism, and rugged individualism, many simply seek a fantasy-ridden image of women as the object of change they seek to import back home without having to change anything about themselves.

The article attempts to thread an inextricable link between this pursuit of a foreign, in this example Latin partner and the capitalistic nature of the western, in this example American man.  In so doing, the author fails to recognise the reality of most men in the west having no real desire to be the outstanding figures of history, but rather prefer a quiet and fulfilling life, shared with a partner whom they actually respect on a mutual basis.

The author overestimates the academic portion of many men’s motivation in this pursuit and ultimately fails in the final assessment to draw a justifiable and provable conclusion.

The article is a worthy read and I commend the author for a degree of “Fair mindedness” at times.  I would recommend that men involved in the pursuit of an international partner read the article and consider the implications of living in the shadow of such thinking within their own community. 

Notwithstanding, I put it to the reader, although the article will likely receive a positive critique at a scholarly or technical level and be acclaimed by popularists, perhaps be used for political leverage, it has more value by association with an educational institution of respect than it does in provety or substance.   

I further put it to the readers, in the face of upcoming elections in the USA and Australia, they consider more carefully the placement of votes.  It is works such as the aforementioned which absorb at least part of government research grant funding.  Do you as an American or an Australian seriously consider you or your country is receiving value for money from such works, or as the author in the article words it, bang for the buck?

In the vernacular, “It’s a No Brainer”.

I/O
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 05:32:52 AM by I/O »

Offline Bruno

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Re: The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2007, 12:38:03 PM »
Whowww...  :clapping: ... i think that it is the first time that i see so quality text on RWD...

I/O, you earn "Mon respect" !!!

Offline Khankrumthebulgar

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Re: The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2007, 11:14:56 AM »
Wow another Feminist bashing Men. Another Feminist deriding an American Man that marries a Foreign Woman. Funny I have talked to at least a half a dozen Women Married to American Men in North Texas. All report being happy. All the Marriages are at least 10 years in duration and 4 are two decades. And are still solid. I can count on one hand the Marriages I have seen that have endured that length of time with US Men and American Women.

At one firm where I worked in 2003 three quarters of the Men there were Divorced Men. It was like the Divorced Men's club. In 2005 I worked in an Office in Dallas for a Major US Corporation. There was five of us. Four of us were Divorced. Two had remarried two vowed to never remarry. They were so jaded to US Women. Those two no longer date, and are not in any relationships. That was two years ago. Their personal life situation remains the same.

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Re: The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 11:13:23 AM »
The latest from Felicity (dated 15April2008):

Quote
Hello to all of you,

I have been following emails here for several months, I’ve spent years on Planet-Love, and have attended several of the Romance Tours in Mexico and Colombia.  I have met some of you and have emailed or talked to others.  I am a female researcher (I speak Spanish – my mother is Mexican and father is Anglo-American) working on a book on the International Marriage industry.  I have interviewed many Latinas and men at the Tours, in restaurants, in their homes, and kept up with others over email.

I am in the process of interviewing as many couples as possible for the final chapter of the book on how this all
works out once women move to the U.S. with their husbands. I have followed some of the very interesting emails on the many challenges that confront both men and women (cultural differences, perspectives on parenting, language issues, values, etc) in marriage.  I am interested in what differences matter, how you work through them, what from your experience has been critical to the success of your marriage, or why in some cases the relationship does not work out.  From as long as I’ve been following this, I know that it is close to impossible to make an easy assessment about how to determine success, but I am very interested in understanding what you have felt are important to fostering a good relationship/marriage.  And because I hear so much from the men’s perspectives, I think a valuable piece of this story has to come from the women too (So Patty and others I would love to talk more with you).  I have been very interested lately in what intimacy means for men and women, how love or intimacy is expressed between the U.S. and Latin America, and how important it is to understand how our own values, cultures, experiences, histories, and desires influence our expectations from a relationship.

I live in California and would be willing to travel to interview couples in person.  I would also be happy to do
interviews over the phone or via e-mail.

Thanks in advance,

Felicity

Her profile, complete with email address for anyone wishing to contact her, maybe found here -- http://feministstudies.ucsc.edu/facGrabiel.html

- Dan

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Re: The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2008, 12:56:51 PM »
And more yet:

Quote
Dan,

Yes, it's true that I am housed in the feminist studies department and affiliated with the Latin American/Latino Studies Dept.  Most people don't understand that there are many different branches of feminism.  I know most of you are skeptical of "feminists" because most mainstream feminist accounts of the International Marriage industry have been scathing and inaccurate, especially b/c they have not talked to anyone involved.  Most think feminists are man-haters, but I don't see any disconnect between being a mother and a feminist, or valuing my family and also attending to the research and teaching on immigration across Latin America.  In fact, there are other feminist anthropologists, such as Nicole Constable, who have been quite critical of the association of international marriages with sex trafficking.

My book is similarly based on anthropological methods such as conducting ethnographies of the tours and chat rooms. I also link what people say and do to the broader context of globalization. I am interested in connecting people’s desires with the contemporary global moment in order to say something about how people’s desires to marry someone outside their national context says much more about contemporary social changes.

  I'm in an interdisciplinary department so we all bring different methodologies to our research.  I do not think, however, that knowledge is objective.  For example, because I know Mexican and Latin American culture, and because I speak Spanish, I have access to understanding things that someone else may not.  I think all knowledge is partial and the best we can do is to try to incorporate as many perspectives, knowing that some have more weight than others, to our understanding of the world.

Thanks for referring me to onlinedatingrights.com.  I just wrote a chapter on Love and Immigration Law where I am quite critical of the Tahirih Justice Center's comments and “evidence” of abuse in "International Marriages."

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Felicity

Offline groovlstk

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Re: The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2008, 01:34:46 PM »
Ironically enough, when I read the name "Felicity," the first thought that popped into my head was how did a feminist end up with a porn star's stage name?  :-X

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Re: The Schaeffer-Grabiel Article. (Some comments)
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2008, 02:41:15 PM »
More Yet:

Quote
Dan,

I am 100% in agreement with Nicole Constable that International marriage have nothing to do with the trafficking of women.  I also agree with her that Western U.S. mainstream feminist ideals and values cannot be transplanted onto all women and circumstances around the world.  I'm wondering why you comment on the rigor of my research methods?  I have spent a great deal of time talking and interviewing with both men and women at the tours and off-line, not b/c I wish to exist in the shadows, but because I am terribly busy with two small children, teaching, and researching and because quite frankly, I'm not a fan of the hostile communication style of chat rooms.  I think many participants believe that if you are a woman and you disagree you are against this industry and that's where I depart greatly.  My approach to this project is trying to talk more broadly about how important cross-cultural literacy is to a healthy marriage/relationship.  In the U.S., there is a tendency to impose our worldview and values on everyone else, and this doesn't make for good politics nor relationships.

I also think that while we can focus on feminists as "the problem" we should also talk about how difficult relationships are b/c of our busy work lives or to look more closely at the fact that when people talk about love they don't want to look at the complicated reasons people love each other which includes economic and intimate reasons.  I also believe it is hard for many men, besides the ones who really work hard to learn the language and culture of the women they marry,  to understand how difficult it is for women to leave everything behind to take a chance on love and/or marriage.  Sure, there are women that really just want to leave, but not because they are evil, but becaues they have so few choices back home to support their children and/or families.  It's important to have these chat rooms to dicuss the complexities and difficulties of these cross-national marriages, as long as people are willing to listen to other perspectives without feeling attacked.

I'm happy to participate in discussions here. [Admin note: "here" is not RWD]

Felicity

If you guys grow weary of this, let me know. I am finding it fascinating watching her expand the scope of the debate and scramble to explain her misdeeds of the past - but it may be boring to others. Let me know.

- Dan

 

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