Dreams of happiness shatter at dawn

[wxman]

We shouldn't be hard on either one. Could things have been handled a little differently? Of course, but hindsight is 20/20. She did not feel a connection. Totoro did. Sometimes that happens. Most of us have had short relationships where the first few dates were good, but then it just drifted with no solid reasons other than perhaps she was not the right one, etc.  If this would have happened in his home town and a local woman would have bailed on him, he probably would have been a little angry or upset, but the next day after waking up in his own bed, would have just blown it off as a bad date and never thought twice. Having it happen in a different country only amplified the situation, as one will always feel a bit insecure when travelling to a new country due to the fact nothing is really familiar to you. You're out of your comfort zone, and that is hard enough by itself.

[Lily]

While men tend to focus on getting a woman, sometimes any woman, a woman is more conscious of what genes she will be passing on to her children. She is evaluating you more than you are evaluating her.

A RW may not want to hear it, but they admire a man who has potential to catch other women. 

Very true BillyB. If a man is not attractive to women in general, why should a RW feel attracted to him? Not Totoro particularly meant.

A woman who considers a man for herself and who gets an opportunity to meet him in person has a big work in her during the meeting. Her instincts are all alert and busy working on whether they want this guy. Often the send mixed signals to her brains making her undecided about the man..Often they say right away No.

  For the most part the theory of "Attraction" works universally.  It is only after the first few months that other factors apply.  IF totoro knew the right ways to keep a woman - ANY woman attracted, entertained, and interested...  then there would definitely be a second meeting.  It is my firm belief that in order for a couple to be happy short term, medium term, or long term a man must keep a woman "attracted" to him.  Especially in the short term.

Serebro...  If I came to visit you and kept you on the edge of your seat, craving for more of me, then I am sure you would forgive my slight oversight of not saying one little thing at the right time.  And as a matter of fact you would probably forgive me saying the wrong thing on an occasion or two.
 

Absolutely agree. The laws of attraction are universal.

MaxxumUSA raised one very important issue about man/woman relationship. If the woman is attracted, read: her instincts accept him, she would probably forgive him his small mistakes. Not big but less significant ones. In the contrary, if she is not attracted, even his perfection would not help him. That's why I am a bit sceptical about all those codes of conduct..

[Jazzyclassy]

If she did not like him from the start ,  pointed at him  of being a little bit  not confident with her unable to read her moods and was not simply good enough for her as how she thinks, why then she was intimate with him?? am sorry why she could not recognise that he was not for her lets say in like first 2 days without having  sex , why it took her so long to torture a person use him in some particular way and then write a creepy strange letter  about his lacks and what a child he is and so on , and who is she to judge him and to have a priviledge that she is a woman she is so sweet and tender, and what about Totoro's feelings, she never cared for him...... even as for a person, who traveled that far and was trying to be liked by her....

I simply think that this woman was kinda emotional user in some way, or a woman with high expectations, thinking of herself being too way exclusive and was waiting only for a prince not less...

really sad things, and being silent about some things concerning that person  was not as  rude  but simply indecent, here I agree with Scott, why she never told what was bothering her and why she simply  never arranged them to be friends during this trip as she  did not want to be more , so that they could just spend some nice time as friends  if they did not connected too well. At least that would be more thoughtfull from her part and he would not be broken hearted right now

[Mir]

Well it could have been much worse

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/afp/20070813/tod-australia-mali-internet-37b0eca_1.html

[Shadow]

Totoro, as you are living in Italy I would advise you to follow the 'lightning trip' method I have used.
We have the luxury of being able to reach destiantion in the FSU within one day travel and without jet lag. This can be used for advantage.
Once you have decided on a next woman to visit, make arrangements to visit her in het home town for 3 or 4 days, not longer. For a woman, and for you as well, this is a time that is long enough to decide if you wish to continue and short enough not to irritate each other or be totally lost. Also it does not take a lot of arranging, as you need only one or two days off from your daily business.

Make a trip within 3 months from the initial contact if possible. Do not mind tourist attractions or good weather. Concetrate on meeting the person and her life, not the country and place where you meet. And keep a very level head before meeting, even if she is dreaming. Understand that the meeting can change all, as you experienced, so do not get in to feelings over your head. This will make you more attractive as it makes you look stronger.

Even when the trip seems to be great and all dreams happen, give both her and you a little time. Research your feelings while on your way back, and the first days after. She will do the same.  Then, if both want to, it is time to pla a longer trip to see if you can spend a longer time together. But that will happen only after one or more short trips.

[Kuna]

Totoro, as you are living in Italy I would advise you to follow the 'lightning trip' method I have used.
We have the luxury of being able to reach destiantion in the FSU within one day travel and without jet lag. This can be used for advantage.
Once you have decided on a next woman to visit, make arrangements to visit her in het home town for 3 or 4 days, not longer. For a woman, and for you as well, this is a time that is long enough to decide if you wish to continue and short enough not to irritate each other or be totally lost. Also it does not take a lot of arranging, as you need only one or two days off from your daily business.

Make a trip within 3 months from the initial contact if possible. Do not mind tourist attractions or good weather. Concetrate on meeting the person and her life, not the country and place where you meet. And keep a very level head before meeting, even if she is dreaming. Understand that the meeting can change all, as you experienced, so do not get in to feelings over your head. This will make you more attractive as it makes you look stronger.

Even when the trip seems to be great and all dreams happen, give both her and you a little time. Research your feelings while on your way back, and the first days after. She will do the same.  Then, if both want to, it is time to pla a longer trip to see if you can spend a longer time together. But that will happen only after one or more short trips.

Shadow,

This is excellent advice for every newbie that can make frequent trips.

Resisting the urge to become emotionally involved too early give the relationship a chance to blossom in as normal a fashion as possible...  It also would help a man retain some logic.

I've often asked myself why I was "lucky" on my first trip.  I think attitude has much to do with it and I know when I left Ukraine the first time the strongest message I gave My Girl was that I was very fond of her but we needed more time together.  I would either return or we'd try to arrange a visa for her to visit me.

As things turned out our relationship progressed in a few large steps after my return but I'm confident if I would have fallen "in love" and made big promises she would not have respected me as much.

Logic before emotion...  and a head set straight on the shoulders is the best approach!

Kuna

[Serebro]

Maxxum, I am not sure that you understood the idea that I was trying to express.
Yes, I agree that women are women and men are men everywhere.
the reason why I wrote that post concerning Europe and Asia was based on the fact of my living in a Moslim republic.Most people here look exactly like people in Nozhny Novgorod or any other "european" Russian town/city but their attitude towards the same things is slightly different. Many times when I go to my friends or relatives who don't live in my republic I often say one phrase"This town is like Kazan but it's so RUSSIAN"
And people don't understand what I mean.I mean attitude of people towards  things.
Speaking about European and Asian "qualities" of Russia I would say it's 50/50, but in my city it's probably 40/60.And that "Asian" part is "bigger".

I have a colleague, a Tatar woman, when she was a child she was upbrought in Uzbekistan. Her hair is fair and if you have a look at her you wouldn't understand if she is a Russian or a German, she prefers casual style of clothing- I mean she doesn't wear this special moslim women dress, she got used to many "Tatar" and "Russian" things but if you go somewhere by bus with her and you both are sitting and some (even young" woman enters if you are still sitting while that woman is standing she will not consider you to be a man anymore. She will not make big eyes,she will not say anything, she will still chat and laugh with you but somewhere deep in her mind she doesn't respect you anymore.
Of course not all women are like this. But this definition of a man's and woman's role is still much different.

Totoro's woman definitely belonged to the type of women whom I described.
Giving explanations(even calm explanations) to someone that you didn't like him/her is STILL a conflict, because you have to admit that you feel dissapointed and you have to tell another person about it. Not all people are ready to have it. I do UNDERSTAND Totoro's woman very well, though as for me I think that I would physically tell him everything.

Jazzy, maybe after the first 2 days she wasn't sure if she wanted to be with him or not.

Another variant:Jazzy, you are Russian and you must have heard of many(not all) Russian men's attitude towards dating and paying for their women.
I visit the most popular russian women's forum where you can see stories like "we met online and decided to meet in person and we had a dinner at McDonalds', he paid and when I came home and couldn't meet him the next day he sent a textmessage to me "and what about having sex"" When the girl refused he accused her of scamming him and having a meal for free.
 I can see at least 5 sad stories like this every week.

I remember one story that happened to my close friend when we were students  and one day we went to an internet cafe and chatted online for some time. She met a man online and they decided to see each other. When she came to that place he saw a man who was dressed like that


and he had a car like this

And he had a bunch of flowers. She was shocked and impressed. He offered her to go to a restaurant with him to celebrate her birthday(she had told him that she had her birthday 2 weeks before), that turned our to be a very expensive restaurant. During the conversation she realized that he wasn't that nice as she had expected and didn't know what to do. She had thought that they would go for a walk and maybe would visit some small cafe but she couldn't pay her bill in that restaurant. The things got worse when she asked him about his work. He laughed and told her that he was a street cleaner. (she thought he was a killer), so she went to the "restroom" and escaped.
Now comes the end of the story, I went to some forum to ask people for their advice what to do if he decided to find her and do something bad, it was a family forum and most people who visited it were middle-aged people with children.
90% of people started accusing my friend calling her a "dinamo" girl,  who likes to spend time with rich men, spends their money and then runs away without "paying".So according to their opinion when she saw him she should have gone away at that moment or not to go to the restaurant or pay her part of the bill at the restaurant or stay with him and do what he wants as he had spent a lot of money.


Another example is RWG' s David's story about his ukrainian wife where he wrote that his wife had met foreign men and had given  them a little sex(as a "thanx")when she realized that they weren't what she wanted.It's terrible and I personally don't have respect for this type of girls but it shows attitude of society:If a man spends his  time or money to be with this girl she feels obligated, like she has to pay him for that to avoid possible conflicts and being accused of scamming him.

I saw Maxxum wrote a story about his AW who never paid.
so I want to tell a story about a RW who always paid.

I know this attitude of society so I never allow a RM to pay for me untill I am completely sure that he is the person whom I like and can rely on and he really likes me and doesn't want cheap sex..
But the problem was that when I got completely sure that RM wasn't going to pay for me anymore. I mean he got used to paying for himself only.
"You will get attached"

[ScottinCrimea]

Serebro, I had been a bit confused because several times your description of RW thinking didn't fit with what I had experienced and what other RW here and otherwise have expressed.  Now that I realize where you live and add in the difference in thinking between the Asian/Muslim/Slavic cultures it makes more sense.  It gives us something to think about here as we try to decipher RW.  The FSU is a huge geographical area with a lot of different cultural influences.  We need to keep tthat in mind.  What to expect from a woman from one of the "Stans" might be significantly different from that of someone from Moscow, Minsk, Kiev, etc.  Even the attitudes and opinions of the Russians versus the Tatars in Crimea can be markedly different.

That should add to the confusion for everyone.   

[Misha]

Three minutes, that is all that it takes. BBC has a wonderful piece on the science of love (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/flirting.shtml). They write:

It can take between 90 seconds and 4 minutes to decide if we fancy someone. But this has little to do with your smooth-talking. As far as attraction goes, here's how we get the message: 55% is through body language; 38% is the tone and speed of our voice; [and] Only 7% is through what we say.

This applies in my opinion to American women, Canadian women, European women, Russian women.... I was lucky. My wife fell for me in the first few minutes. She knew right away that I was for her, in spite of a few dumb things I said on our first date. However, I did fall for some women, who did not fall for me in the first three minutes. They had a thousand reasons why I was not the right man for them.

So, I agree that it is best to have a short date first, not on a vacation, and take it from there. If the spark is not there in the first few minutes, it likely won't appear later.

[Serebro]

Serebro, I had been a bit confused because several times your description of RW thinking didn't fit with what I had experienced and what other RW here and otherwise have expressed. 

I don't think that all descriptions of RW thinking are the same here, even if they are given by RW.
As for the South I have lived there and  I think that people are more open there and they don't normally think twice before doing something.

[HiTech]

Totoro: Do not blame your self in any way. Yes there were lessons for you to learn. But given how you describe her reactions and letter, she is a selfish high maintainence lady.  No mater what you did, you would eventually not get along with her. She sounds like she has a big case of the princess syndrome.

HiTech

[Mamma D]

This was a tough adventure......but might it not have been a better idea to meet her on her terf with family and friends?

Two people, away from familiar surroundings, can ACT a part they are not.

Just wondering.......

Sorry it seems not to have worked out.

Mamma D

[CaptB]

Mama D,

For a half dozen years now I have advocated that the first meeting be on the RW's home turf. As you said......meeting at a third location allows both parties to "act" differently......than amongst family, friends.......coworkers. Other men argue it does not matter "where" you meet. I totally disagree. Save those third location "vacations".......for "after" you have made a connection......and have started a (exclussive) relationship. On such a vacation.......it will be easier to......be yourselves. Yes, yes......I know the arguments by some......that it does'nt matter. They argue that observing her on vacation will give you a glimpse as to how she will be in unfamiliar territory (ie her new "foreign" home). I don't believe anyone will drastically change once they set foot in their new home country. Adjustments, homesickness, learning curve......yes. But after an adjustment period.......the woman you got to know.....on her home turf........will emerge intact...........................IF.......................you did your work...........and really got to know each other. Those that say a "new" personaly appeared after setting foot in her new home.......are just witnessing the "real" woman that was their all along. In cases that this turned out to be a bad thing........you just did not get to know her well enough. I think Totoro is a good guy. Next time.......meeting in her home town.......will cut down on those looking for a vacation. If she insist only on a third location..........walk. A woman who is serious about getting to know you.......will be happy to have you visit her city.


Capt B

[Blues Fairy]

Hmmm meeting on her home turf...  A working girl in Russia only has 28 vacation days per year by law.   Many don't even get to use all 28, for instance I've been accumulating unused vacation days for years now, because I just cannot get away from work too often.  Naturally, when I DO get away from work, I want to spend this week or two in a nice warm place, preferably near the sea or in a tourist location.  Those who have kids prefer to take them away to dachas or Black sea etc.

Enter marriage-minded AM who's been brainwashed to first visit "on her home turf".  If the lady is serious, she will of course accomodate.  To spend quality time, she'll use her vacation days, but will have to spend them in her home city, where friends and family and coworkers don't get off her back 24/7.  No privacy, no relaxation, and most likely no chance to keep things secret from her folks for a while, before the relationship becomes serious.

Rather selfish on the part of the said AM, I think.

[I/O]

Rather selfish on the part of the said AM, I think.

Yep...!! And..one of the few chances we really get as guys to be totally selfish in the whole meeting process.  I/we have done some strange things in our little journey thus far, but one thing is for sure, I only really got to know her when I spent time with her in her home city.

I think the whole privacy thing is rubbish unless she lives in a village. Mine doesn't come from the biggest city in Russia by a long shot and nobody she knows would have a clue I am there until I show up at her parent's apartment. Then of course the local Babushka telegraph seems to go into meltdown phase.

IMO third location holidays are for after marriage.  Prior to that, every resource should be thrown at getting to know each other on home turf. Both ways if possible.

I/O   

[Shadow]

Blues Fairy it is an interesting point. Apart from the work place. where the employers can react kind of funny, what is the reason to keep this guy away from friends ? It would be strange that you have told nobody in your surroundings that you are writing with a guy from another country. So why not give them the chance to meet this 'alien' ?
If you agree to meet him, you must already give him some chance to be right for you.

[Blues Fairy]

Yep...!! And..one of the few chances we really get as guys to be totally selfish in the whole meeting process.  I/we have done some strange things in our little journey thus far, but one thing is for sure, I only really got to know her when I spent time with her in her home city. I/O

Sure enough!  Because she met you at the airport, played host, showed you around, picked the restaurants and shows, hailed taxicabs, solved all little and big problems along the way, and generally proved her worth as a woman-in-charge and caretaker.  And you just allowed yourself to be pampered and taken care of, as guests (and husbands) do. 

Kinda reminds me how my now-fiance and I went about retrieving my car after it was towed away by Moscow road police.  He just walked and watched while I did all the problem-solving and trouble-shooting.   Sure he was impressed and got to know me quite well!  But he wasn't much help, apart from moral support and simple presence.

Apart from the work place. where the employers can react kind of funny, what is the reason to keep this guy away from friends ? It would be strange that you have told nobody in your surroundings that you are writing with a guy from another country.

Well it has to do with the Russian superstition about not babbling about a project until it's well along and close to success.  Sure I told my friends about my correspondence and when my guy came to Moscow, I arranged a dinner to get them acquainted.  But - I live alone and I'm accountable to nobody.  Other ladies, especially those who live with their parents, might find themselves more pressured by their families and friends.  Sometimes it's easier to keep them unaware.     

[Shadow]

Well it has to do with the Russian superstition about not babbling about a project until it's well along and close to success.  Sure I told my friends about my correspondence and when my guy came to Moscow, I arranged a dinner to get them acquainted.  But - I live alone and I'm accountable to nobody.  Other ladies, especially those who live with their parents, might find themselves more pressured by their families and friends.  Sometimes it's easier to keep them unaware.     

I guess it was my luck that all women I visited were living alone. On my first trip the friends that were arrenged to meet suddenly got 'busy'. One of the clear signals tham men should pick up on.
On the second we were meeting the friends for a get together on the winter festival and ended up at dinner with them....

[I/O]

Sure enough!  Because she met you at the airport, played host, showed you around, picked the restaurants and shows, hailed taxicabs, solved all little and big problems along the way, and generally proved her worth as a woman-in-charge and caretaker.  And you just allowed yourself to be pampered and taken care of, as guests (and husbands) do. 

Yep...!!! And.........I lazily enjoyed every minute of it. Of course one could see by the grin on her face that would have needed a surgeon to remove, she was hating every minute also.

I/O

[Makkin]

I/O,

  I could not have said that better.

Makkin

[Blues Fairy]

Yes, Russian women will sacrifice their hard-earned vacation with a smile on their face.  They will stop a charging horse and enter a burning house, and survive on $5 a week if necessary, and never ask for help if their wallet is lifted.  Take advantage guys, by all means.

[Shadow]

Yes, Russian women will sacrifice their hard-earned vacation with a smile on their face.  They will stop a charging horse and enter a burning house, and survive on $5 a week if necessary, and never ask for help if their wallet is lifted.  Take advantage guys, by all means.

A small sacrifice to make for a green card, a life of luxury and the option of trading up if necessary. 

[Gator]

Blues Fairy,

There is no clear road to follow in this endeavor.  However, all roads lead to Rome, even the path of most resistance.

You points are valid.  As an additional point, are you also being influenced by a need to judge the man regarding how he will protect you and take care of you if you eventually moved to his country?

I prefer meeting women in their home city, but not for the reason of judging a woman's character.  That takes a long, long time.  And I imagine women think the same of me.  All I need to know at first is whether we like each other. 

One meeting can destroy a thousand letters and phone calls.  Being in her city, two people can part ways quickly and easily. Two people not into each other.....fixed to a vacation resort with paid hotel and unchangeable flights.....spending hour after hour, day after day together....sounds rather irritating to both.   And both have wasted some vacation days.  Been there, done that.

I have tried every approach.  What seems best to me is to meet a woman for 2-3 days in her city and then decide if a second meeting is appropriate.  That is part of a "Visit More than One" approach which many RW dislike.

[Serebro]

Blues Fairy it is an interesting point. Apart from the work place. where the employers can react kind of funny, what is the reason to keep this guy away from friends ? It would be strange that you have told nobody in your surroundings that you are writing with a guy from another country. So why not give them the chance to meet this 'alien' ?
If you agree to meet him, you must already give him some chance to be right for you.

WEll, there's a thread here concerning introducing your AM to your friends and relatives where I expressed my opinion and explained a lot of things.
The question to you, imagine, that you met a girl(from your country) online, you chatted and then met each other.Will you take her and show her to your friends and family, you will have a dinner together, and she will smile, give them a hug and a couple of presents and in a couple of day will go to another man who lives in a nearby town to see if he is better than you because she had also corresponded with him. Does it sound healthy?!

I don't know about the Netherlands where people are allowed to smoke weed where they want but here, in Kazan after being visited by a couple of men like those I will be pointed at and called a prostitute who probably sleeps with western men for money.

[CaptB]

Lets see......a week or two of "priceless" vacation time...............in exchange for...........a partner for life. Uhhh...........this just is'nt the RW's vacation time...........it was "mine" also.
An even trade.............don't you think? If a woman thinks a little vacation time is too valuable to "waste" on buillding a lifetime relatinship.......then I guess I would move on until I found someone.........who like "me".........thinks it is worth the "vacation time". And "Blues Fairy".........hopefully your fiance won't have the attitude that it is such a chore to "babysit" and organze everything for you when you arrive in "his" country.......for many "months" or longer. I think a week or two of vacation time is a fair trade.........don't you think?

My wife did not "hide" me from friends, relatives and coworkers. She relied on them for "feedback"......and their opinions about me as a suitable partner. I am glad she did. Those people are now..........my friends and relatives. Yes.......I know about about keeping a low profile in Russian culture........when it comes to certain "outside interests". Sometimes in an international relationship.......you just need to have a "thicker skin"........and put asside oppinions of others who may be " jealous" of your situation.

Some people would rather not gamble their valuable "vacation time".........for a lifetime spouse. Fortunately for my wife and I............were not of that opinion


Capt B