Dreams of happiness shatter at dawn

[Simoni]

One meeting can destroy a thousand letters and phone calls.  Being in her city, two people can part ways quickly and easily. Two people not into each other.....fixed to a vacation resort with paid hotel and unchangeable flights.....spending hour after hour, day after day together....sounds rather irritating to both.   And both have wasted some vacation days.  Been there, done that.

I have tried every approach.  What seems best to me is to meet a woman for 2-3 days in her city and then decide if a second meeting is appropriate.  That is part of a "Visit More than One" approach which many RW dislike.

Excellent advice, Gator.  The girl you write to of course is not always the person you meet in real life.  Writing is edited speech, and allows the girl to say exactly what she wants to say.  Same goes for the man.  And phone calls do not have the physical presence which is so essential.

With your suggestions, those that fall in love with a girl via letters, can escape when cold hard reality sets in. 

For those that get lucky and click with the girl in real life, they can always extend the stay.

[Blues Fairy]

If a woman thinks a little vacation time is too valuable to "waste" on buillding a lifetime relatinship.......then I guess I would move on until I found someone.........who like "me".........thinks it is worth the "vacation time". And "Blues Fairy".........hopefully your fiance won't have the attitude that it is such a chore to "babysit" and organze everything for you when you arrive in "his" country.......for many "months" or longer.

Wow how many dots in your writing, a little hard to follow the idea.

Well if the guy has invested quite some time writing good letters (like I believe I/O did), he probably has the right to expect his potential fiancee to readily forgo the trip to Black sea and spend her priceless vacation entertaining him in her home town.  But many gentlemen here, as I understand, advocate going to meet girls on their home turf regardless of how long the relationship has been under way.  Maybe she's still unsure about the lifetime part and you are already imposing yourself.  Rather presumptuous, don't you think.

BTW my fiance will not have to babysit me when I arrive, since I have 3 years of life in the US under my belt already and, if necessary, I can start a job from day one, DHS permitting. 

[Gator]

he probably has the right to expect his potential fiancee to readily forgo the trip to Black sea

Why the Black Sea?  Save the limited vacation time for something far better and more romantic (and costing not much more).   But only if the two like each other upon meeting.

[Gator]

Simoni,

You highlight what you liked from my post.  This is what caught my eye from your post.

The girl you write to ... is not always the person you meet in real life.  Writing is edited speech

[catzenmouse]

Well if the guy has invested quite some time writing good letters (like I believe I/O did), he probably has the right to expect his potential fiancee to readily forgo the trip to Black sea and spend her priceless vacation entertaining him in her home town.  But many gentlemen here, as I understand, advocate going to meet girls on their home turf regardless of how long the relationship has been under way.  Maybe she's still unsure about the lifetime part and you are already imposing yourself.  Rather presumptuous, don't you think.

Wow! So if you don't have any time invested in letter writing or phone calls it is okay to take a stranger on a vacation so she doesn't waste her precious time getting to know you/you getting to know her in her home town (the place where she became the person she it).

Now THAT is what I would call presumptuous! Even borders on what many would consider a gold digger or professional dater.

Interesting perspective but it is surely not something/someone that I would spend any time on.

Ken

[Blues Fairy]

I just used Black sea as an example vacation spot of a middle-class RW.  More likely, it would be Turkey or Egypt.
My guy and I met for the first time on a regatta in Greece.  We were on the boat with other people and the aim was just to become friends and enjoy the sailing.  But sparks flew...  

Catzenmouse, why do you assume all RW expect you to pay for their vacation?  I had no problem arranging meetings in Europe where he paid for himself and I paid for myself.  What prevents both people from combining a leisurely pastime and getting friendly?  If they don't click they'll at least have a nice vacation, skiing or sailing or sighteseeing or whatever.

[catzenmouse]

I didn't assume anything, why do you assume that I did? 

Simply taking your words and thoughts and questioning how that would be in the best interest of a possible lifetime together?

Also please tell me how many women in the FSU can afford to pay for a vacation? 5% 10%? Maybe 15%? So that leaves a very large percentage of women who do not have this ability. Of those women, how many of them would want to take a vacation with someone they really do not know. How many would be happy to show off their city? Their friends? Their family?

From what I have read of your thoughts here you sound like you are talking for all, or at least a majority of FSUW. I don't see most FSUW having this same attitude but if this is the prevailing wind I'm even more grateful that I am not looking anymore.

Ken

[Blues Fairy]

From what I have read of your thoughts here you sound like you are talking for all, or at least a majority of FSUW. I don't see most FSUW having this same attitude but if this is the prevailing wind I'm even more grateful that I am not looking anymore.

Why, because I sound like an AW?
I'm talking for myself and probably for those 10-15% who can afford being in an equal relationship with a western guy.  If most western guys are looking for a RW who will put herself in an unequal relationship ("2 weeks of vacation is little sacrifice for a GC and a lifetime of luxury" (c)), I'm grateful I'm not looking anymore.   

[catzenmouse]

No, you don't "sound" like an AW, just someone who was making very broad sweeping statements that you now admit are only related to a small percentage of FSUW.

Thanks for the clarification.

[ScottinCrimea]

It seems that I had the best of both worlds.  On my first trip we spent 2 days in her home town, then eight days on the Black Sea in Alushta and Yalta, then the final two days back in Simferopol.  Of course Alushta being less than an hour's drive from her home helped.  I was there the first part of May, so the beaches were not overcrowded, the weather was great, not too hot, and we stayed in hotels that had private beaches and were definitely romantic enough.  The only friend or family that I met while I was there the first time was her daughter.  Even though her parents live only 100 feet from her home, I never saw them until my second visit 4 months later.  They did know that I was coming, though, as her mother prepared some dishes that were waiting for me when I arrived. I didn't worry about who I met on the first visit or the reasons why.  It was what she wanted and I respected that.

My second visit 4 months later we traveled all over Crimea but used her home as a base, and the third visit two months after that was pretty much exclusively in her home, seeing how her normal life was.  To be honest, I didn't see any difference in how she behaved on either trip, no matter where we were or what we were doing.  Maybe if you have a woman who acts differently depending on where she is and who she is around you need to rethink things.

The first trip I had arranged everything so all she had to do was interpret the menus for me.  The second trip she took care of me in her home , drove me around Crimea and I covered the costs of the sightseeing.  I don't think either of us thought twice about who was paying for what.  I think it was just assumed that any added expense of my being there, I would happily cover.

We really didn't travel to any "exotic" place until my fourth visit, when we met in Istanbul for the holidays.  We spent a lot of time with our friends who lived there, and, again, I noticed that she was the same even there.  At that point we were definitely committed to each other and I covered the expense, since she could not have afforded to.

[Serebro]

No, you don't "sound" like an AW, just someone who was making very broad sweeping statements that you now admit are only related to a small percentage of FSUW.

I don't think so. A few times after posting my thoughts here I was told that I seem to be a very "strange" and unusual RW.
Now you say almost the same to BF.
I don't think that most girls posting here are different from ordinary RW and have different opinion and experience, maybe the impression that you got after meeting with RW wasn't ..eerrrr.. right

[Blues Fairy]

No, you don't "sound" like an AW, just someone who was making very broad sweeping statements that you now admit are only related to a small percentage of FSUW.

I stated that a working girl had 28 vacation days and it would be presumtuous to expect her to spend them entertaining a man she hardly knows in her home town.  I believe that even those 85% who cannot afford a vacation in Europe still deserve to be treated with respect.  Even if they will receive their guests with a smile on their face in hopes of a ticket to US and a life of luxury.  You may call it a broad sweeping statement if you like.  

[groovlstk]

Hmmm meeting on her home turf...  A working girl in Russia only has 28 vacation days per year by law.   

Since you've been to the US before, you realize that 28 days of vacation is more than double what the average American receives?

[Blues Fairy]

Since you've been to the US before, you realize that 28 days of vacation is more than double what the average American receives?

Even more reason to pick Thailand or Barcelona instead of Nizhny Novgorod. 

[groovlstk]

Even more reason to pick Thailand or Barcelona instead of Nizhny Novgorod. 

It worked for you and your beau, obviously, but for those of us who were burned by vacation whores or who had to endure days of awkward silences when the girl we expected to meet turned out very different from her letters (or vice versa), it's The Golden Rule to meet a girl on her home turf first.

Funny enough, women seem to be able to enjoy themselves if a relationship sours and she's stuck at a resort or in a strange country with a man she cares nothing for; speaking for myself, having endured this type of situation more than once (due in part to my own bone-headedness), it's pure agony lying in bed at night next to a stranger knowing you've not only pissed away thousands of dollars, but a week's worth of valuable vacation days that can never be redeemed. 

[Misha]

I stated that a working girl had 28 vacation days and it would be presumtuous to expect her to spend them entertaining a man she hardly knows in her home town.  I believe that even those 85% who cannot afford a vacation in Europe still deserve to be treated with respect.  Even if they will receive their guests with a smile on their face in hopes of a ticket to US and a life of luxury.  You may call it a broad sweeping statement if you like.  

Well, the 28 days does not include weekends, so in reality these 28 days stretch out to well over a month of holiday time, which is not bad compared to the 2 weeks most people get in North America. Also, people do get weekends and they can take UNPAID days off. My wife and I did this while I was in Russia: she took the Friday and the Monday off, and we visited Moscow together.

[Blues Fairy]

Well, the 28 days does not include weekends

Actually they do: 20 work days, 28 calendar days.  But I do sympathize with you Americans; your culture seems to associate time off work with a profound sense of guilt.   

groov, there are dozens of vacation schemes where a man and a woman don't have to spend the entire time tete-a-tete.  E.g. a group chalet in the Alps, jointly with other skiers  - cheep, too!  

[Misha]

Actually they do: 20 work days, 28 calendar days.  But I do sympathize with you Americans; your culture seems to associate time off work with a profound sense of guilt.   

groov, there are dozens of vacation schemes where a man and a woman don't have to spend the entire time tete-a-tete.  E.g. a group chalet in the Alps, jointly with other skiers  - cheep, too!  

Well, my wife had much better holiday time when working in Russia: she had 48 days (including weekends). I have to say that my first "vacation" with my wife was much more modest than the Alps: we went to hoe some potatoes in a small Russian village for a weekend :-) But, I did propose to her on the bus back to her city.

[BillyB]

Besides people having to put up with people they're not interested in on a vacation they can't escape from, I read on the forums a few times people not showing up. Going on a vacation with a stranger who you never met is risky business. Also men in the sex trade have tricked a number of FSU women to going on vacation only to take her passport away when she arrives and beat her into submission, then forcing her to work as a prostitute to pay her way out of her situation.

There are many things I learned on my trips to my fiancee's hometown. She knows how to cook. I was the way she was slicing through vegatables and she's no novice. She also cleaned her grandmother's flat when visiting. I suspect many pro daters would not do that but instead take me out on the town to party. She is good with children. I saw a group of pre-teen girls in her apartment complex run up to her and give her a big hug and was excited to see her. I met her friends and family and seen what kind of company she keeps. There's more. Now she gets to go on vacations on my dime.

The best use for letters and phone calls is to get to know the person and eliminate them from your "who to visit" list. The guys who write to one, or a few don't tend to do any elimination and they force themselves to stick with a woman that isn't compatible.

[catzenmouse]

I don't think that most girls posting here are different from ordinary RW and have different opinion and experience, maybe the impression that you got after meeting with RW wasn't ..eerrrr.. right

That must be it. Probably means our close to 3 years of marriage isn't right either. 

I stated that a working girl had 28 vacation days and it would be presumtuous to expect her to spend them entertaining a man she hardly knows in her home town.

Yes you did state that. I only countered that is equally presumptuous to take someone you hardly know on a vacation.

I believe that even those 85% who cannot afford a vacation in Europe still deserve to be treated with respect. Even if they will receive their guests with a smile on their face in hopes of a ticket to US and a life of luxury.

And how did I say that she should not be treated with respect? Or that any woman should not be treated with respect no matter how much she can or cannot afford? 

You may call it a broad sweeping statement if you like. 

I did and it is.

[Blues Fairy]

I only countered that is equally presumptuous to take someone you hardly know on a vacation.
And how did I say that she should not be treated with respect?

You said that by your countering statement.  "Taking" someone on vacation = paying her expenses, n'est-ce pas?  My guy did not "take" me on vacations, or vice versa.  We jointly planned get-togethers and a third country seemed like the best shot for a blind date.  Equal risk, equal investment, equal gratification.  Stating that it's presumptuous to "take" RW on a vacation as a first date - now that's presumptuous. 

[catzenmouse]

Yes Dear. You're right Dear. Whatever you say Dear.

[BillyB]

We jointly planned get-togethers and a third country seemed like the best shot for a blind date.  Equal risk, equal investment, equal gratification. 

It may take a man or woman to go through 10 people before they find one they like. If you went and paid for your own vacation to meet a man and it didn't work out, would you give the next man and the next you meet equal treatment until you find one you like? Not many people could afford vacations for each date until they find the one they like.

Although I would feel special if a hot woman would want to me on foreign ground, I would question her sanity. My fiancee had two Germans invite her to Germany on their dime but she thought it was crazy for her to do that and turned down their offer. No matter how much a woman will pay her own way on a trip, most likely a man could overpower her if he intends to do wrong.

Blues Fairy, I notice you like using the word "equal" a lot. People may be born equal but we don't end up that way. I wouldn't want my fiancee to equally fix the car or house with me. I wouldn't require her to equally contribute her half to the family's finances. I wouldn't keep score on who's cutting the grass or taking out the trash. If a thief entered the house, I wouldn't expect her to do her fair share of confronting the criminal and pulling her half of the trigger. It's best people play the roles they're best designed for. After all said and done, it should end up being benefitial for both man and woman in a marriage.

[Shadow]

Blues Fairy did you both make your own travel arrangements ? Did you have separate hotel/apartment arrangements ?
As you might have read in this topic I have the luxury of being close to the FSU. In my case a first visit made both me and the woman have to sacrifice 3 days of our vacation, to spend a total of 4 days for exploring each other.
A less scrupulous RW might even arrange that by a sudden 'illness'  

[Misha]

It may take a man or woman to go through 10 people before they find one they like. If you went and paid for your own vacation to meet a man and it didn't work out, would you give the next man and the next you meet equal treatment until you find one you like? Not many people could afford vacations for each date until they find the one they like.

Although I would feel special if a hot woman would want to me on foreign ground, I would question her sanity. My fiancee had two Germans invite her to Germany on their dime but she thought it was crazy for her to do that and turned down their offer. No matter how much a woman will pay her own way on a trip, most likely a man could overpower her if he intends to do wrong.

Blues Fairy, I notice you like using the word "equal" a lot. People may be born equal but we don't end up that way. I wouldn't want my fiancee to equally fix the car or house with me. I wouldn't require her to equally contribute her half to the family's finances. I wouldn't keep score on who's cutting the grass or taking out the trash. If a thief entered the house, I wouldn't expect her to do her fair share of confronting the criminal and pulling her half of the trigger. It's best people play the roles they're best designed for. After all said and done, it should end up being benefitial for both man and woman in a marriage.

Well, and let's not forget the challenge of getting a visa, and the cost. Only a small proportion of women in Russia (less than 15% would be my estimate) could afford to fly out to Switzerland for a vacation.

However, if you wanted to meet Russian women who are already on vacation, then there are two options: Turkey and Egypt. All you have to do is find a resort that caters to Russians, and you will have large numbers of Russians because they are relatively cheap (cheaper than Sochi) and you can get a visa if you are Russian hassle-free.