Dreams of happiness shatter at dawn

[Totoro]

Hi guys,
I just got back from my trip to Ukraine. Well, I actually got back several hours ago, at almost 3 AM, but I needed some sleep and had things to do before posting a report ^_^

As you can imagine from the title, not everything went well. And still I don't understand how (and why) things went wrong.
I arrived in Kiev in the afternoon of July 30, and met Irina in the morning of the following day. We went out exploring the city, and that was the first of many beautiful days together. She was nice, smart, attractive, and loved to laugh. I really liked her, and she seemed to share the feeling... in a couple days we were sharing some things that would be very inappropriate to report. We were both tourists, and acted like such, visiting many places and enjoying them very much: a guided excursion thru Kiev, the zoo, a boat trip on the river, several walks on Kreschatik... all memories of a happy time, feeling good with her, with no clouds on the horizon.
The days in Odessa were a bit different, as we spent most of our time at the beach, devoting only a couple evenings to exploring the place. And still all was good. One day I was ill (probably a small food intoxication, as it affected my stomach) and she took good care of me, buying a special herb-vodka ("becherovka", I think it was called) and insisting I take some because it was very good for stomach, preparing me several cups of (horribly bitter ^_^) green tea... well, in less than 24 hours I was 100% again.
Then the last day came, and according to Murphy's law all that could go wrong went wrong. After the nightly Odessa-Kiev trip Irina was very tired, and didn't feel too good anyway. We had to wait several hours for my flight (her train home would be a couple hours later), and even if I wanted her to rest and try to get better she insisted to take a walk, so we went to Kreschatik again, "in memory of the old days" ^_^.
In the meanwhile she had taken one of her bad-mood spells, and it got much worse with the discovery that someone had lifted her purse from the bag while in the metro (darn! we had taken that metro at least a dozen times, and I was always at her side. This day it was too crowded and we were separated a little, so her bag was more exposed and I noticed nothing...). We were resting in a small cafe when, after a long silence, she suddenly said "now I go to the station", which I mentally translated as "Claudio, I'm tired, please let's go back". So I went and paid the bill, and when I was back 1 minute later she was not there anymore!
Thought she had gone to the toilet unnoticed, but the waitress confirmed that she had actually left! I looked for her along the street, but no luck. So I ran to the station, and after almost 40 minutes of frantic search I spotted her. She saw me, too,  and quickly walked away! I managed to reach her and asked for an explanation, but she simply stood there ant uttered no word, looking at me almost with anger, certainly without any sympathy. Then she turned and left again, without a word of goodbye or anything. This time I let her go, partly because I was already late for the flight, partly because by now I was so angry that I feared what I could say (or do) if I saw her again. So I started the long way home, feeling angry, sad and totally nonplussed after 12 days of perfect bliss, without any hint of the tragedy to come.
Up to now I have no more news... all my calls and messages remain unanswered, and I have the feeling I won't hear from her again. This is too strange behaviour, I don't understand. All I can think of is that she must have been really mad at me... but what for? I had done nothing more/less/different than all the oher days. Maybe she somehow holds me responsible for the loss of her purse? Still, it seems unjustified...
Guys (and girls), I don't know what to think of it. Maybe I've just been had by a pro-dater, but it doesn't look so... she often paid for herself, all that she really got was free lodging for almost 2 weeks, the Kiev-Odessa train ticket, and some freem meals (not counting a couple small and unimportant presents and some flowers).
Guess I need to heal my hurt feelings, and then start again from scratch... goodbye, my beautiful dreams!

[DKMM]

Dam dude, that's harsh.

I have two theories:

1)  She is playing games, and those kinds of games cannot be tolerated.  I think this is possible because those can go hand in hand with "bad mood spells" types of women.  Be glad she made it easy to walk away from.

2)  she changed her mind and wants nothing to do with you.  This is more likely because most women would not use the end of your time together to do anything but make you feel good about it. 

No matter the reason for her leaving like that, she could have faked it even for a couple more hours and then told you she changed her mind after she got home.  But no, she made a scene on purpose and that purpose was to let you know that its going nowhere.

This is why guys tell you to not get emotionally involved until AFTER the 1st meeting.  At least you had some fun with her and she didn't do this the 2nd day... You need to completely forget about this woman, which is tough but its life.

[Maxx2]

She sounds mentally ill. Announcing she is going to the station then treating you like she did after she told you were she was going to be. This woman is a nutcase. Congratulations you dodged a bullet.


Maxx

[Serebro]

When I read this story for the first time I couldn't understand her behaviour at all.
But when I read it for the 2-nd time I noticed the following things

it got much worse with the discovery that someone had lifted her purse from the bag while in the metro (darn! we had taken that metro at least a dozen times, and I was always at her side. This day it was too crowded and we were separated a little, so her bag was more exposed and I noticed nothing...). We were resting in a small cafe when, after a long silence, she suddenly said "now I go to the station",

Maybe I've just been had by a pro-dater, but it doesn't look so... she often paid for herself, all that she really got was free lodging for almost 2 weeks, the Kiev-Odessa train ticket, and some freem meals (not counting a couple small and unimportant presents and some flowers).

Well, I can understand why she

she had taken one of her bad-mood spells, and it got much worse with the discovery that someone had lifted her purse from the bag while in the metro

As it was the last day of your 2 being together.

But that phrase concerning "long silence" made me think about something:she was going to her home town by train and she had lost her wallet...
Probably she didn't have any money at all at that moment and she waited that you would offer your help.And you didn't. I don't know exactly, but remember the story again.

[Hub]

Absolutely too strange for my small mind to try to comprehend. 

Are you sure you haven't left something out in what you are telling us?

But you do have my deepest sympathy.

[Serebro]

Absolutely too strange for my small mind to try to comprehend. 
Are you sure you haven't left something out in what you are telling us?
But you do have my deepest sympathy.

I agree.There was one thread here in RWD concerning me where my ex AM described me as an emotionally unstable mentally ill she-devil.
And 99% of VERY important details were left untold...so...

-well, another variant could be that she just likes to spend her holidays this way(I have heard of this type of women) and the way she acted was one of the ways to leave you and to make you feel depressed

-she had expected that during that last dinner together you would tell her something important concerning your future relationships( and you didn't) and she was dissapointed that you didn't promise anything to her...

[I/O]

She thought he nicked her purse and cracked the sh!ts. Or did the purse ever actually go missing and it was all a sham to get him to cough up some gold.  When he obviously wasn't taking the hint, she cracked the sh!ts. Different road, same destination.

Let's be real here, the guy is a seemingly decent guy, he has come in here for advice and listened.  He's made a plan and done the deed then got shafted in the end. Anyone else notice she apparently "Put out" within about the first two days? Doesn't strike me as the cleanest plate in the cupboard. :noidea:

Totoro: What have you got out of this? You are now one step further away from naivety, you've had a good time, gotten a tad of crumpet, she hasn't cost you a fortune and you now have a real awareness that dreams are just that, dreams. And............you are not sitting there vexing over whether or not she is the one for you.  Seems to me that every post is a winner here.

The point is, for a first tripper, you could've gotten your arse handed to you a lot more seriously than you have and you now understand that not all is as it appears with this FSUW thing. Don't bother trying to figure the answers out with this woman because you never will.

I/O

[docetae]

I read from your profile that She was from Belarus, a question ... do you pay her ticket to Kiev ?

[ScottinCrimea]

I think based on what we have, we can only make assumptions.  Here's one of mine:  Like typical RW (or any woman for that matter) she expects you to be able to read her mind.  I don't know how many times I tried to figure out what my wife was thnking in order to ward of a "bad-mood spell" and I usually got it wrong.  Finally after several times politely (and sometimes not so politely) informing her that I couldn't read her mind, the light bulb finally came on and things improved immeasurably.  Now she even appreciates my attempts to try.

With your girl, the combination of being tired, the thought of you leaving, and her purse being stolen set things up for anything to trip her off.  The long silence was while she was waiting for you to understand what she was thinking and either say or do the right thing.  When you failed, she became angry at your "failure to understand her".  Basically you failed a test that you didn't even know you were taking.  Such can be life witha RW at times.  It is possible that you had failed other tests along the way that you didn't know about and this was just the last straw.  She had other "bad-mood spells" before?  If so, what were the circumstances?

At any rate, her reaction was extreme and don't start to think that all RW will be similar.  You have read enough here to know that.  I think you are a good, sincere guy and will find what you are looking for.  Try to get some clues here and by introspection about what you may have done wrong or any flags that you might have missed and use it to move on.  Trust me, it's worth it!

[Durk]

      I have a question Totoro. What about a backup plan?
   
               In the country we would call this girl a birddog. The first part is easy to
figure out. After the fun stage she will control your life and if you are stupid enough
to put up with the moody crap and marry her she will call you on your cell two or
three times a day wanting to know what you are doing and with who,when you will
be home etc.. I have seen this with customers of mine. The result has been a really
nasty divorce that has gone on almost for ever it seems. Tell her to go home to
mother. Be glad it is over. Go the next time and play the field for a while.
               My first trip will be to meet as many as I can and just check out the
lay of the land. No fancy trips away regardless of how we would get along.
               I also have to ask what is up with the hurry to hit the sack. Personally
that would be down my list of things to do with a strange girl in another country.
               That action usually cheapens the value of any serious relationship that
may have started between the two of you. A good relationship should not be put
at risk by the pace of everyday life.
               

[Gator]

Totoro,

Please forgive me for using your case as a study example to guide other men on what not to do (if the men will listen).

ScottinCrimea wrote,

The long silence was while she was waiting for you to understand what she was thinking and either say or do the right thing.  When you failed, she became angry at your "failure to understand her".  Basically you failed a test that you didn't even know you were taking.  

Serebro wrote,

Probably she didn't have any money at all at that moment and she waited that you would offer your help.And you didn't.

-she had expected that during that last dinner together you would tell her something important concerning your future relationships( and you didn't) and she was dissapointed that you didn't promise anything to her...

BINGO!!!  

This woman seems sincere based on your post.  She probably did have fond feelings for you, but you made a big mistake, and she may think you are not worth a second chance. 

Her dream man would know what to do.  You must be  the man, take the lead - advice  mentioned frequently at RWD.  RW have a lot of pride and do not like begging.  They will go without something rather than ask and feel like a beggar.

If she has dreams of moving to Italy, she knows that she would be totally dependent upon you for her welfare.  Based on not helping her when she needed help, she does not know if you will assume your responsibility as a man.  She does not want to live the life of a beggar in Italy.


You are a decent man, but a little naive based on your "French letters" question.  This is why some old bulls such as me get along well with some young RW.  We take the role the RW wants us to have, one they expect from their man.  How did we learn?  In my case from making the same mistake as you and having my nose rubbed in it.

Before giving up, I would suggest that you use an interpreter to call her without you on the phone.   The interpreter can ask questions if your little woman is willing to talk.  However, her mind is probably made up about your true nature.  She may think of you as a greedy, sex tourist, when actually you were just oblivious. 

[Gator]

Mir,
I had intended to respond to your post.  It is good that you deleted it (or was it a Moderator?).  Totally inappropriate as well as incorrect for judging a woman's character.

[wxman]

I feel for you. I think Serebro and Gator have a good guess at what may have happened. Of course it still doesn't justify her radical reaction, if in fact it was. We really don't know the whole story, but either way, it's over. No sense over analyzing this, as you will just beat yourself looking for an answer. It's a shock to the system no doubt, but you will get over it.

[Turboguy]

I have to agree with Wxman that either Gator or Serebro nailed it.   I don't think she was using you or a serial dater.    I think she became angry, disappointed and upset at the end and just wanted to be away from you before she told you off.   Either the way you handled her wallet being stolen disappointed her and she expected you do do something that you did not or she expected some commitment from you that was never offered and felt you had used her and were a sex tourist. 

In reality you may be better off.  RW do sometimes expect you to read their mind.  You didn't.  Most of us can't read the mind of a RW or AW.   More troubles would have developed in the future anyway.   There are lots of good women out there.   You will find the right one but it won't be her.  It is not worth persuing further.

[Simoni]

I feel for you. I think Serebro and Gator have a good guess at what may have happened. Of course it still doesn't justify her radical reaction, if in fact it was. We really don't know the whole story, but either way, it's over. No sense over analyzing this, as you will just beat yourself looking for an answer. It's a shock to the system no doubt, but you will get over it.

I'm doubting the theories that she was testing you in some way.  I think she just decided you were not the man for her, and took the easy way out.  But nonetheless, you want nothing to do with this woman, so run...run...run!  Forget her and don't look back.

But do go back to the FSU.  But do so after a shorter "romance" via letters and meet the person in real life sooner.  And if you want to WOVO, have a backup plan.

[CaptB]

Totoro,

After reading your post twice.....along with the comments of others......my guess would be the stolen purse may be the culprit. You knew her purse had been stolen.....at which time.....her mood changed. Did you ask her if she needed some money.....how much she lost? Since she came from Belarus to Kiev......it would have been a good gesture to offer to pay (reimburse) for her travel expenses (a relatively small amount.....especially if she took a train). She may have even refused your offer......but the result may have been a change of "mood". She paid her own transportation, purchased things herself.....things were wonderful most of the trip.....until the theft of her purse. Whether I was at home dating a woman (USA)......or overseas with an RW.......theft of their purse would have been a (big) concern for me. I think you may have dropped the ball on this one...Totoro. I may be wrong.........but its how I read it.


Capt B

[Makkin]

Gator,

  Could you please elaborate on the "be the man" and "take the lead" in regards to this problem he has had and how it could be related to his situation?
  I understand you have tons of experience but you jolted my brain there and I yearn for more of your knowledge in this area.

  It's clear that there are many parts of the story in speculation but perhaps your wisdom can help here and I would like to hear your take and advice on the manly part of relationships and how you would approach fsu women and with your vast experience I am all ears and wish to learn.

Thanks,

Makkin

[Gator]

Makkin,

Are you setting me up?  I appreciate your interest, but I have several limitations:

1.  I have never been married so my experience is not vast.  Who knows if I know what I am talking about?
2.  The women I have dealt with are 30-47 years old.  Younger women may differ. 
3.  The subject is still elusive to me.  When I first starting dating RW, I heard the “be the man” advice, did not grasp it and made some mistakes.  Fortunately, the one RW who became my fiancée was patient with me, did not sulk when I made a mistake, and indicated more or less how I could improve.
4.  The philosophy is complex, so I think it is best explained by case studies.

You should query the women in their forum “Ask a Question to the Women”.  Nevertheless, here is my quick attempt late at night:

1.   The same as you, I had been trained for a long time by AW.  RW are different and what works with AW does not necessarily work with RW.  The RW’s difference derives from their culture and the lack of security and stability in daily life.
2.   RW seem to need and want a man more than the typical AW does.  Many AW seek independence, while RW seek family with a man at its center.  A man at the center requires him to behave with a certain style.
3.   The average RW with marriage agencies is good looking, better looking than the average RW on the street.  These women are receiving attention from RM and have been trained by them. 
4.   RW dislike many aspects about RM, yet RW love their strength.  Life is difficult and RM must have strength and insight to maneuver around the many obstacles whether it be corruption, government bureaucracy, attempts to defraud, etc.

Now enters an AM into her life.  Someone who is not prone to adultery, who offers stability and security, and who will make a good father.  However, many AM are indecisive in a RW’s eyes, too forgiving, too easy, too silly.  They think such men are weak, even children. 

The examples are little events.  The AM will not suggest anything to her on a menu (presuming it is in English), and will even be indecisive about his own choice.  He will ask her what she wants to do, rather than suggesting bowling, or a drink, or a walk.  Notice, I say “suggest” not “dictate”; these women are not submissive nor compliant.  Often he will not take the lead in sex.  He does not take care with his money.

These are little matters actually, yet she is watching you and judging you.  If she is to come to America, she must have faith in you that you will take care of her for the first year or two (assuming she is serious and not a GCG), and particularly if she has children.   Just spending time together Some test of your strength and confidence will come.

 
It may something going wrong as I speculated about Totoro’s case.  In the FSU, something goes wrong frequently. 

As another example, it may be that she wants something, gives you a vague clue, and you miss it.  I recall being with one RW in Turkey and she wanted a coat.  She had $500 to buy one.   She looked great in a $650 coat (that figure after much haggling with the store owner).  She also tried on a $500 coat that was merely okay.  The more expensive coat was well worth the extra $150.  Dumb me said something about not needing a coat in Florida.  She replied it gets cold in Russia and she really needed one for the upcoming winter.  I did not respond.  When I turned my head, she bought the $500 coat.  I would have made her happy by giving her the $150.  A RM certainly would have.  Instead, she probably questioned whether she would have to beg from me when she wanted something.  RW have more pride than AW and will never beg, or even appear to beg.  And even though they do not say anything directly, they expect you to know.

In another example, I bought a piece of jewelry for a RW, about $300 and I planned to use my credit card.  The credit card was refused and I had to return the item because my cash was short.  She was offended.  No RM would ever buy something without having the cash in his pocket.  It was as if I could not manage money.

A final example and then it is bedtime.  In Thailand, the same RW gave me an example of a “good man.”  On one island an Italian family sought shelter from the sun and laid their towels and gear on the edge of the beach under the towering jungle canopy.  A pack of monkeys soon moved in and pillaged their belongings, looking for food.  It was humorous except one had their young boy’s asthma medicine and was opening it.  A female monkey had a plastic case containing expensive sunglasses.  I attempted to help by poking a stick at the one with the sunglasses.  The monkey would not release the glasses and instead grabbed my stick and wrestled with me. 

A photo shows her saying “My sunglasses.”   Since I outweighed her 190 lbs to perhaps 7 lbs, I was winning the struggle.  That is until the Alpha Male showed up.  Out of nowhere the Alpha Male came after me, with a frightening demonstration of teeth and screams, advancing even when I backed off and stopping when I was well gone.

The RW told me, “He is a good man.”  She was smiling, yet as Russians say in every joke there is truth.  I surmise that what  a RW wants is a man who will protect his family and take on the 2,000-pound gorilla (me in this case). 

In summary, RW will welcome the man who brings all the decent features of AM yet who also has inner strength and confidence of a RM. I hope these little examples will help.  Perhaps one of the married men can elaborate upon the concept rather than use examples.

[Jazzyclassy]

Totoro,

Please forgive me for using your case as a study example to guide other men on what not to do (if the men will listen).

ScottinCrimea wrote,

Serebro wrote,

BINGO!!!  

This woman seems sincere based on your post.  She probably did have fond feelings for you, but you made a big mistake, and she may think you are not worth a second chance. 

Her dream man would know what to do.  You must be  the man, take the lead - advice  mentioned frequently at RWD.  RW have a lot of pride and do not like begging.  They will go without something rather than ask and feel like a beggar. Absolutely true  point noticed by Gator

If she has dreams of moving to Italy, she knows that she would be totally dependent upon you for her welfare.  Based on not helping her when she needed help, she does not know if you will assume your responsibility as a man.  She does not want to live the life of a beggar in Italy.


You are a decent man, but a little naive based on your "French letters" question.  This is why some old bulls such as me get along well with some young RW.  We take the role the RW wants us to have, one they expect from their man.  How did we learn?  In my case from making the same mistake as you and having my nose rubbed in it.

Before giving up, I would suggest that you use an interpreter to call her without you on the phone.   The interpreter can ask questions if your little woman is willing to talk.  However, her mind is probably made up about your true nature.  She may think of you as a greedy, sex tourist, when actually you were just oblivious. 

I agree with Gator here and at the same time I agree with I/O 's post about her being doubtful creature , so she is somebody in between I think

though we really do not know all the facts so , I can agree more with what Gator is offering in his post here

Never worry Tortoro , you seem to be very nice person , great that you are sincere , this quality is hard to find nowadays, it will be fine , you will find a person who will make you happy and you will understand each other

I can understand how you feel , but your broken heart will  be mended so so soon , just wait a bit, time will help you . Never give up of course

[Blues Fairy]

Gator, Serebro, very good insight.

Totoro, if "long silence" is not a telling sign then I don't know what is.  What happened during this long silence, did you ask her any questions, offer any consolation or help?  Or just sat there as if nothing had happened and waited for her mood to change back to normal?   

[CaptB]

Gator,

Good post. I was going to add an explanation about "being the man".......and what that means.......in the eyes of an RW. Just too tired to write more last night. Your explanation is pretty much spot-on. I still feel not addressing (if this was the case) the stolen purse ........and all the problems that could have caused her.........was no small issue in her eyes. Only speculation. Totoro may fill in the blanks.


Capt B

[Shadow]

I guess that the guys here already hit the nail on the head. As you describe 'bad mood spells' it seems this was not the first time udring your trip that she displayed them. That alone shoud have been a warning.

This is one of the reasons why I would always advise to make a first trip to visit her in her home town. No matter how far away and desolate it may be.

In any case it is time to move on. Try to learn what you might have done wrong without becoming someone you are not.

[ScottinCrimea]

Some miight be confused with discussions of RW straightforwardness and downright bluntness versus thier evasiveness on some things and expecting us to read their minds.  If I could summarize it in one sentence, I would say that when they want to inform you of something, they will make it very clear but when they want to ask you for something, they will only hint and you must read between the lines.  They express their demands with pride but also in another way express their wants with pride as well.

[Gator]

ScottinCrimea wrote,

I would say that when they want to inform you of something, they will make it very clear but when they want to ask you for something, they will only hint and you must read between the lines.  They express their demands with pride but also in another way express their wants with pride as well.

Excellent summary. 

The source of this pride still escapes me.  I do not find it false nor to the level of arrogance.   Ironically, RW exhibit humility, more so than Americans who tend to brag too much.  Pride and humility would seem mutually exclusive, yet they can pull it off. Perhaps RM brag, but I do not know RM very well to ascertain that.

I have noticed that RW are angered by sympathy yet adore empathy.  Whatever, RW are long in pride and short in cash.  To not sense their material needs is to require them to go without or to ask directly.  The latter is begging, something they despise.  A man making them beg is a "greedy" man, an unforgivable sin.

One does not have to worry about reading RW's emotional needs.  They will make it apparent without regret.  Now contrast that with the last five AW you have dated.

[BillyB]

Hi guys,
 I really liked her, and she seemed to share the feeling... in a couple days we were sharing some things that would be very inappropriate to report. We were both tourists, and acted like such, visiting many places and enjoying them very much: a guided excursion thru Kiev, the zoo, a boat trip on the river, several walks on Kreschatik... all memories of a happy time, feeling good with her, with no clouds on the horizon.

How was her body language to you? Did you hold hands often and have passionate kisses? Just sharing things between you two that's inappropriate to talk about here doesn't mean she's into you.

In the meanwhile she had taken one of her bad-mood spells, and it got much worse with the discovery that someone had lifted her purse from the bag while in the metro (darn! we had taken that metro at least a dozen times, and I was always at her side. This day it was too crowded and we were separated a little, so her bag was more exposed and I noticed nothing...). We were resting in a small cafe when, after a long silence, she suddenly said "now I go to the station", which I mentally translated as "Claudio, I'm tired, please let's go back". So I went and paid the bill, and when I was back 1 minute later she was not there anymore!

Any reason she was in a bad mood before the purse was stolen? When you say you noticed nothing, did you mean you didn't notice the robbery, exposed purse or if she was even carrying her purse that day? Did you laugh off the theft? My feelings is that she either had something planned or she was turned off by you before the theft. One reason I say that she might have planned all this is because she still had money to get back home on her own. And the way you made it sound, she went directly to the station. Did she go back to her room to get her luggage first?


 

I don't know what to think of it. Maybe I've just been had by a pro-dater, but it doesn't look so... she often paid for herself, all that she really got was free lodging for almost 2 weeks, the Kiev-Odessa train ticket, and some freem meals (not counting a couple small and unimportant presents and some flowers).

What agency/company did you use to contact this woman?

Who's idea was it to cruise around Ukraine? Did you pay for her trip ahead of time? IF not, did you immediately reimburse her for her fare to Kiev once she arrived? I'm against meeting a woman for the first time on foreign ground. Not only will you fail to see how she acts in her own environment, if you do win her heart, you will fail to understand if you did it with a vacation or the man you are.

Totoro, I hope we don't have a long silence from you. I know you're feeling down but this experience could be valuable to others who are about to embark on a trip themselves.