Dreams of happiness shatter at dawn

[RK]

Gator, excellent post. Well written and focused. The challenge for many newbies,as it was for me, is recognizing those features, not misinterpreting what is meant (easy to do), and not take things personally (as Kenc suggested on a different thread a little while back). That's after you have determined you are dealing with a genuine person and not writing them off as having ulterior motives or dishonest based on that behavior. If you are able to achieve balance between the two cultures of personality, both people in the relationship grow together and have a wonderful opportunity to live in a relationship together beyond what words can describe. I guess that can be true in any relationship, but the attributes you describe of the RW combined with the attributes of the AM are different than most AW/AM relationships, so the opportunity for both to learn and grow together is huge, for those willing to do so.

[wxman]

Each woman is different, but yet very much similar. Hard to explain, but so much truth behind it. My fiancee has very little patience for healthy people capable of finding a job, on the street asking for a handout,  but almost everytime she passes a old pensioner she will drop a few kopecks in their cup. She understands just how hard it is for a pensioner to get by through experience with her mother. In a way not much different than us. I think most people think the same way when it comes to kindness for those really in need, no matter where they are from.

On a comical note, I always get a strange look from her when I hold the door open for her, and then keep it held open for a few people that are right behind us. She understands why I hold the door open for her, but not for total strangers.

[WmGO]

I think Serebro, Scott and Gator are on to something about what happened here.
 
I also think Gator's reply #17 should go to a special section for permanent status as it illuminates a lot about WM-FSUW interaction. Too many WM don't do their homework and go unprepared as to what is expected of them by FSUW, cultural differences, etc.

Tortoro, you may recall that I was on of the vocal people *against* first meetings outside the lady's home territory. Now you know why. A first meeting should occur in the lady's city or if it is a "village" at least the closest decent sized city. Vacation type meetings should not occur (if at all before marriage) until the later very developed, committed and exclusive relationship stage. But I do congratulate you on getting your feet wet and going over. You saw, did and experienced a lot. Chalk it up for experience. Good luck.

 

[groovlstk]

Although I tend to believe this woman was a pro dater, even if she was sincere it seems unfair that Tortoro is getting the blame for this mini train wreck when rightfully the blame lies with both parties.

This type of cross-cultural relationship requires an enormous level of patience from both the man and the woman. For her to behave in such a rude and hasty manner as she did shows that she probably doesn't have the patience and commitment necessary for a relationship with a foreign man (and again, I'm basing my opinion on the limited info we have based on one party's account). I'm sure many of the other married guys here have committed plenty of gaffs like this, as I have (and which I continue to do at a steady rate). The difference is our wives understand we weren't raised in their culture and are patient enough to ask for explanations before reaching for a suitcase or swinging the rolling pin
 

[WmGO]

I agree with you Groov, just b/c Tortoro may have "failed" in the eyes of the lady does not justify her behavior. It was extremely rude and immature. Some may say even irrational. I was just commenting on a cultural analysis as to *why* it may have happened (incorporating what Serebro, Scott and Gator theorized).

Big Lesson: FSUW can have very high expectations from WM, even a LOT more than they have from FSUM. That is why it is better to keep the first meeting shorter than two full blown weeks in another country. I think it is better to advance these relationships in bits and pieces than huge chunks all at once.

[groovlstk]

Big Lesson: FSUW can have very high expectations from WM, even a LOT more than they have from FSUM. That is why it is better to keep the first meeting shorter than two full blown weeks in another country. I think it is better to advance these relationships in bits and pieces than huge chunks all at once.

I agree, it goes without saying that when JB and Jet say "RW aren't for everyone" the same applies in Russia--even among those inclined, not many RW have the patience and fortitude to make a relationship w/a WM work. And too often guys at the beginning of a relationship w/a RW don't realize that what appears to them as "patience" is more likely "desperation."

There are also advantages and disadvantages to meeting RW who've never dated a WM before, but that's probably a topic for another thread.

[Totoro]

I was a fool, that's the bare truth behind it all.
Today I received a message from her, explaining why she acted that way.
Basically, throughout the whole vacation she had not been happy with some things about me, and about halfway had decided that I was not the man for her, but, quoting her mail, "I didn’t want to spoil vacation and I’d liked to avoid useless conversations so I said nothing".
The theft was just the last straw and, together with her being tired and not feeling too well, made things go real bad. She had declined proudly my first offer for help when the theft was discovered, saying she hadn't lost much and had other money (while now she says that in truth she only had some small change left in her bag).
She had the idea that I was a greedy man and didn't want to beg for help, while on the other hand I was only too willing to help her and was trying to find a way to offer help again without sounding rude or offensive.
So, as it seems, deep incomprehension and guilt on both parties. I should have been able to understand her better, and been firmer (more "manly" perhaps?) in several things. And she was just too proud to speak her mind and let me understand what she really thought. All things that I was already aware of before leaving, but with my mind only... now I've experienced them on my living skin.
To quote her again:
"You can say that you nothing knew, that I should tell you and ect…  But you’re a not a little boy (though sometimes behave like a child), at least you must try to understand woman, with whom you spend a time and , on your words, you very liked. All your words about care was only words, you did nothing when I really need a help."
These things happen... now it's over, and it's useless to daydream about what could have been (anyway, a person capable of such drastic reaction would probably be a bad life partner for me). Still, I feel partly responsible for what happened, because it was my idea to take the metro that day when we could wait for the plane in other ways, and I was somehow unable to give her the help she needed. I shiver at the idea of the horrible day she has passed, with only a couple dollars in her hand and several hours to wait before a night train home (good thing she already had her ticket, and it was not stolen).
Certain thing, I need to grow more and become more mature, and stop believing women's words, especially when these words are "it's all right".
I thank you all again for all the good advice and support. Now I'll wait for time to heal my hurt feelings and begin looking again. Next time everything will be better!

[MaxxumUSA]

Slightly off topic...

Gator said:

Russians say in every joke there is truth

- end quote

Wow...  Be very careful in this area, gentlemen.  A RW will take your jokes the wrong way occasionally.  The quote above was told to me by my RW one time when I was joking about something.  I forget what I was joking about...  but she was involved in the playful joke and took it as fact.  I had to mentally note to try and never do that again.

[RK]

Wow, bummer. Thanks for being upfront and honest about what she said and your feelings and reactions. Many will learn from your post here and it takes a true man to reveal ones weaknesses and failures, although I would not consider this a failure, but a stepping stone onto something successful in the future. I think Jazzy is right...you're a good guy and your time will come.

[RK]

Slightly off topic...

Gator said:

Russians say in every joke there is truth

- end quote

Wow...  Be very careful in this area, gentlemen.  A RW will take your jokes the wrong way occasionally.  The quote above was told to me by my RW one time when I was joking about something.  I forget what I was joking about...  but she was involved in the playful joke and took it as fact.  I had to mentally note to try and never do that again.

AW and AM say it too.

[Gator]

Tortoro,

You are a big man.  Only a real man would admit to such mistakes and make such an honest disclosure. 

Nevertheless, ease up!  You are way too hard on yourself.

Your woman's silence, withdrawal and refusal to speak is partially culpable.    Life is not eternal bliss, and things will go wrong.  It is the responsibility of both the man and woman to resolve the problem, starting with communication, something she refused to do.

Yet, I have seen your woman’s behavior before in some RW I dated.  While mind boggling, it is real.  So a man must be on alert to look for it, try to read her moods, and somehow coax from her what is troubling her if not apparent.

I also feel that life with such a woman is like walking on egg shells.  You could never relax, waiting for problem to happen, and wondering if you are doing okay.

Some RW are not this way.  Like you, I am not good at reading moods.  Fortunately, my first RW recognized I could be oblivious and she assumed my heart was in the right place.  So she behaved more as a partner in trying to resolve problems, rather than as someone expecting her mind to be read.  And when I made mistakes, she would give a sign (such as tapping her wine glass when it was empty rather than scowling). 

So slowly I was trained by a RW.  This sounds as if I were far from being "the man".  However, my inner strength prevailed and when I felt like a doormat, I put my foot down instantly and stood tall with my chest out, figuratively and literally.  She may not have appreciated it, yet she respected it. 

I doubt that I am as much a "real man" as some others here with strong personalities.  However, I have enjoyed some good relationships.

Again, do not be so hard on yourself.  Consider that you have officially been baptized.  Now go find a more talkative and forthright woman.  You can sense it on the telephone. 

[MaxxumUSA]

Totoro...

I am a bit old fashioned.  You mention she paid for a lot of things.  For me - when I am spending time with a woman I tend to foot the bill for everything we do.  I am curious why you allowed her to spend her money?  A woman will sometimes grab her purse when the bill comes - but you should NEVER or VERY SELDOM let her pay IMO.  (maybe after being married)

Oh...  and no need to be down on yourself.  You are experiencing this first hand - and should be proud of your attempt and learning.


Oh...  and slightly off topic...
I had an AW gf years ago that was old fashioned also.  But she abused it a bit.  I remember paying for VERY expensive shows/trips/dinners/etc.  Being that I'm old fashioned I didn't mind but she never even offered - never.  So...  one time we were driving along and I stopped at one of those old fashioned ice cream stands on the side of the road.  We're at the window to pay the $2.50 tab.  I forgot my wallet in the car (on accident, I swear!)  LOL - which was far away and there were 12 people in line behind us.  So I ask her for some money to pay for the ice cream.  She looks me dead in the eye, smiles, and says sternly "I never pay."

I dumped her quick smart.

[Makkin]

Very excellent post Gator,

  Thanks for the valuable information and it's so kind of you to make the examples and information available.

  Noooo...I would never set you up or make that attempt. If you read all my posts you can see I have never attacked anyone and am not one to do those type things.

   Again thanks and I am always interested in one as yourself who is able to glean a thought and translate it to others with a positive implication.

Makkin

[I/O]

Totoro: A decent post.  You have learned a lot and can see issues. (Even if in hignsight) I remain of the opinion that things moved too fast and probably never allowed time for either of you to get a grip on the lack of cultural understanding between the two of you.  Yes the onus is on the guy, but she has to give a little too or it isn't going to work no matter how much you "get right".

This is my opinion only, but consistently I have advised against 3rd location meetings.  I think the holiday location thing intensefies the pace of everything and therefore compounds the mistakes which you both WILL make.  I would strongly urge you, if you do go to meet another lady in the future, for a host of reasons, meet her on her turf.

I/O

[Misha]

You say that she wrote: ""I didn’t want to spoil vacation and I’d liked to avoid useless conversations so I said nothing." The question, then, is which vacation she did not want to spoil: hers or yours?

[Serebro]

This is my opinion only, but consistently I have advised against 3rd location meetings.  I think the holiday location thing intensefies the pace of everything and therefore compounds the mistakes which you both WILL make.  I would strongly urge you, if you do go to meet another lady in the future, for a host of reasons, meet her on her turf.

I/O

I agree but I would change it this way: no 3-rd location meetings for the FIRST meeting when you don't know each other at all. If something is wrong you may have hard time trying to escape.

and as for the girl's reaction I think that everything was ok with her, she didn't want to argue with him, I think that's what people call English leaving withotu saying good-bye. Totoro was supposed to guess something but he didn't and she just left. I like this idea better than arguing pointing at each other mistakes and calling each other bad names.I know that most americans like different types of discussions and talk shows to speak about relationships... but that girl wasn't American.

[Serebro]

You say that she wrote: ""I didn’t want to spoil vacation and I’d liked to avoid useless conversations so I said nothing." The question, then, is which vacation she did not want to spoil: hers or yours?

Does it matter now?
She didn't want to quarrel as she is evidently not a bossy woman and isn't keen on shouting and yelling.
Every time you, guys date someone from Russia remember one thing:Russians aren't European people and they are not Asian people, their culture, customs and traditions are affected by both parts of the world.

[Turboguy]

WOVO is always a crap shoot.   Yes, once in a while you roll 7's.   Your trip did not turn out as you hoped but believe me it was wonderful compared to some of the WOVO trips I and others have had.

[ScottinCrimea]

Serebro, believe it or not it is possible to discuss something without shouting and yelling.  When you have a concern you express it and try to resolve it, not let it build up and have other things pile on.  I'm surprised that you think her reaction was okay.  She kept silent and led him to believe that all was well, then just left with no explanation.  In any culture, that is simply rude.

Totoro, thanks for the insights.  You're seeing that as a AM we have to learn a lot about RW to try to understand them.  The good ones will realize that it works both ways.  Apparently she didn't have this concept in her.  Many have said here that some AM just aren't suited for RW.  The reverse is also true.  Some RW just aren't suited for AM.  Better to find out sooner than later.

[SANDRO43]

Totoro, thanks for the insights.  You're seeing that as a AM we have to learn a lot about RW to try to understand them.  The good ones will realize that it works both ways.  Apparently she didn't have this concept in her.  Many have said here that some AM just aren't suited for RW.  The reverse is also true.  Some RW just aren't suited for AM.  Better to find out sooner than later.

Don't want to sound nitpicking Scott, but Totoro happens to be an IM, not an AM .

[Serebro]

Serebro, believe it or not it is possible to discuss something without shouting and yelling.  When you have a concern you express it and try to resolve it, not let it build up and have other things pile on.  I'm surprised that you think her reaction was okay.  She kept silent and led him to believe that all was well, then just left with no explanation.  In any culture, that is simply rude.

after her explanation I think that she is a really intelligent woman. Probably she knew that she wouldn't be able to discuss it without "spoiling everything', she didn't want a conflict and accuse him of something, besides she didn't  leave without saying good bye, she wrote a letter to him. It's obvious that she didn't want to discuss it at that moment. You blame her for being silent and not expressing her thoughts. I think that Gator (IMHO he is  a very experienced and intelligent man )gave a very clear explanation that it's not a "russian"way to tell directly what you want to get.
As for me I understand her and her behaviour very well.


I still remember my first day of staying with  an american family when they offered something to me and it wasn't politely to say:"sure, I want it, give it to me, I am starving", that evening I thought that I would die of starvation because they didn't offer it again

[BillyB]

Basically, throughout the whole vacation she had not been happy with some things about me, and about halfway had decided that I was not the man for her,

I didn't think the purse was the reason she left you and as I suspected, she made up her mind a long time ago. She had quite a different view from yours where you thought the whole vacation was wonderful until the last day. If a purse theft near the end of a trip was the only reason a RW left a man, she would be considered rude in any culture, or an insincere woman with an escape plan to end her meeting with a man she don't like or wanted to use.

Maybe this doesn't apply to you but I've seen it from many newbies who go WOVO. They invest too much into one woman and they end up giving out signals of desperation when meeting her. A RW is attracted to a man who have standards and requirements and wouldn't just fall for any woman. Many WOVO men would  proceed with a less than ideal relationship with a woman and blind themselves to red flags. They limit themselves to find and catch the right woman for themself. That doesn't not look clever in a RW's eyes.

Also many shy/nice guys fail to show they physically like a woman. If there is a list to accomplish on a trip, one item should be understanding if there is physical attraction. Too many guys come home not truly understanding if a RW is attracted to them or not. Also a woman wants to know they are able to turn your hormones on. You need to take her hand, sit close to her and put your arm around her. But you don't want to over do it either which could be interpreted as an act of desperation.

RW want an Alpha male who is in demand. They want a bull and if you mess with the bull or his woman, you're going to get the horns. Or you could look like a monkey but be able to defend your woman's sunglasses from big bullies named Gator!

While men tend to focus on getting a woman, sometimes any woman, a woman is more conscious of what genes she will be passing on to her children. She is evaluating you more than you are evaluating her.

A RW may not want to hear it, but they admire a man who has potential to catch other women. A few women told me, including my fiancee, that I was a "careful" man as I did not fall so quickly for them as other men have in correspondence. I told my fiancee that I was visiting her as friends only and she knew I had written to other women and had other options if it didn't work out. I sense she tried even harder for me and when a RW is into you, you'll know it. I also told other women I written to that I chose to visit another woman first but if it didn't work out, would they be open to communicating we me again. They appreciated my honesty, knew I was serious, capable of visiting the FSU, and knew I had other options on the table. Many of these women are beautiful and they probably don't have many guys turning them down. One woman, for months, tried even harder to get me to drop my fiancee for her.

You should've done more action than words with the expenses. I asked my fiancee if she needed money at the end of my first trip to her. She said no as she always does to me pertaining to money. I told her I know she lost wages from taking time off work, went to a salon, and buying new clothes for my visit. She still refused. The last day I handed her some money saying I didn't have the chance to exchange it to dollars so I can't take it home forcing her to accept it. If she had her purse stolen in another city, I would've given her money immediately after the theft so she could have the "peace of mind" knowing I care and think about her safety getting back home. Actions do speak louder than words.

On the other end of the spectrum, guys throw their money around leading with their wallet and spend too much on women. Sincere women do not like that they are to be bought. A man should win her heart on his own merit, not with gifts and vacations. Vacations should be saved for a woman in a serious relationship with you.

Totoro, the first step to recovery is to admit your fault. You have done that and you will certainly become wiser to your benefit. You will learn to better read a RW and understand if your next trip is failing sooner than later. It's to your advantage to cut your losses sooner if things aren't right so you may be able to move on to backup. Going on this vacation forced your girl to stick it through with you with little escape route. Going on this vacation, you too forced yourself to make it work out, ignore any red flags and certainly be blind to what she's thinking. You put yourself in a situation with no escape route too.

Once a RW loses respect for you, there is little chance to earn respect back. It's best you not waste too much emotion on this woman, ask her to forgive you for your lack of action, respectfully wish her well and goodbye, then get back on your feet and move on. The more you communicate with her now, the more desperate she'll think you are hurting any chance you may have left. You being able to walk away from a less than ideal situation and not cry over lost opportunity will earn you respect.

[Simoni]

Usually the simple explainaton is the correct one, or as I wrote way back on page one...

Totoro~ do go back to the FSU.  But do so after a shorter "romance" via letters and meet the person in real life sooner.  And if you want to WOVO, have a backup plan.  

You learned a lot, Totoro.  And remember....there is no such thing as a wasted trip.

[Hub]

Some random thoughts.

I have taken several RW/UW on vacations.  I tell them up front that I will cover all expenses such that they will have zero out of pocket costs.  On the first such occasion, I was ready to give the lady some money (to cover her arrival expenses) when we checked into our accommodations.  She said she didn't want to be carrying around such money while on vacation, so I waited and gave it to her at end of our trip.  On subsequent trips, with other women, I simply just waited until end of the trip to give all the money.  None seemed too worried about my having not offered money earlier.  Mostly it was a small amount of money anyway because I typically had already paid for their airfare.

Also, I ask the women if they do have some money to carry with them on a daily basis and offer to give them $20-50 if they haven't that much.  When they ask what is it for, I say just in case we get separated and you have to take taxi back to hotel, resort, etc.

Like the original poster's gal, I have determined at some point during a vacation that the gal and I don't have any future, and in some cases I would even really like to get rid of her quickly.  But, like OP's gal, I stick it out so as not to ruin the vacation for her.  I even wait until the gal is back in her home before I send the Dear Jane letter.  No need for them to be fretting on the trip back home as trips are stressful enough without that added on top.  Of course they are probably a little p.o.ed that I didn't propose marriage, or speak glowing things about out future, or whatever at the airport, but that is still not as traumatic as getting the Dear Jane spiel at the airport.

I think there needs to be some balance regarding this concept of trying to figure the RW/UW out, trying to span the cultural gap with them, etc.  This is a two way street.  To them, we are a little strange.  To us, they are a little strange.  I don't see the need for the guy to carry all the burden here and have to make 100% of the adjustment to adapt to the hopes, desires, or even demands of the women.

I am a pretty nice guy and try to be respectful, pleasant, etc., but in general I am still projecting an idea of . . . here I am, this is me, see if you like it; if not, then we can both keep searching.  Just how far a man can push this depends a lot on his individual situation.  For me, I have already been married before for a very long time and I have fathered wonderful children.  So I don't need a woman as much as some here might, and thus I feel no need to make big adjustments in my actions as might be desired or demanded by any woman.

FWIW

[MaxxumUSA]

Does it matter now?
She didn't want to quarrel as she is evidently not a bossy woman and isn't keen on shouting and yelling.
Every time you, guys date someone from Russia remember one thing:Russians aren't European people and they are not Asian people, their culture, customs and traditions are affected by both parts of the world.

Pay attention Totoro...

Serebro...

I'm sorry to bust your bubble about this.  As much as I love my RW I need to let you in on a little secret...  This situation has VERY LITTLE to do with the fact that this particular woman is a RW.  For the most part the theory of "Attraction" works universally.  It is only after the first few months that other factors apply.  IF totoro knew the right ways to keep a woman - ANY woman attracted, entertained, and interested...  then there would definitely be a second meeting.  It is my firm belief that in order for a couple to be happy short term, medium term, or long term a man must keep a woman "attracted" to him.  Especially in the short term.

Serebro...  If I came to visit you and kept you on the edge of your seat, craving for more of me, then I am sure you would forgive my slight oversight of not saying one little thing at the right time.  And as a matter of fact you would probably forgive me saying the wrong thing on an occasion or two.

Yes, RW are quite unique in many ways.  But you are women.  I'm afraid that some men are simply intimidated or otherwise not fully capable of mastering the situation when it comes to situations of man/woman relationships.  I think that totoro learned a lot this visit because he had a chance to be with an attractive woman for much longer that he might normally get a chance to.

I am NOT saying this as a put down, Totoro.  Just talking based on your posts here.  For some reason you seem to be intimidated by women in some way.  Especially attractive women.  This is an "Inside" issue.  There is a saying I have seen occasionally on the forums and in life  "If you can't get a woman in your home town - how do you think you can get one elsewhere?"  I think you may have some "Inside" work to do, as you have mentioned in a previous post.

You need to learn how and when to "put your game on".  There is a time for the good old "I love to kiss your ass" routine.  That time comes about 2 times before marriage and probably many times after marriage.  Other than that you need to be a man and stand your ground.  And by being a man you need to know the line between gentleman and jackass.  You can be a leader without yelling.  You can be a leader without being in the front line.

It is SO VERY complicated.

There are courses on the Internet about how to create attraction in women.  Attraction and ROMANTIC love are totally different.  Take your time, learn a little about that, and you will be ready for the start of the journey.