Russian lessons

[Jet]

It took me at least that long and I still to this day can't say s udOvoLstvIJEM (with pleasure) so that a single
Russian speaker can understand what I said. I have even filmed an RW saying the word with my movie camera
thinking that if I held my lips etc like she did I could learn to say it. But NYET (no) ne Udachi (no luck)

UspEhov! (have success)

Bill


PS
clasna kryto, klevo or krooto = cool

LOL! The way I managed to plant it in my brain was to use something Taz describes in anothor thread - a mental picture:
I thought of the Exwife - "So, divorced we am"  That got it close enough to tweek the pronunciation into something recognizable. 

[Christian]

A couple of things which helped me (though believe me, I'm very much still a beginner) is first, to stop translating in my mind. To "think" in Russian. It's really not that difficult if you change your focus from "It's a different language" to "These are simply new vocabulary words for my already existing database of mental images".

Language is nothing more than a series of phonetic envelopes to send a mental image from one cognitive brain to another (or more aptly stated, to cause the receiver to pull up his/her filed image.. thus the origin ambiguity). It really is exactly that simple. Anything else is window dressing.  So, thinking about the words as "mental images" rather than "Words in a different language to be translated into my language" makes it much easier for me.

I firmly believe that any language course should spend the first month doing absolutely nothing other than practicing the pronunciation and inflections of the new vowel and consonant sounds. Slow and deliberate practice. But this is rarely the case in reality, as almost every class begins with words and phrases.  One trick to help get pronunciation improvement rapidly is to speak your native language with a Russian accent. Practice making your English words sound exactly like you hear your lady make them.. She's giving you many of the exact sounds you will need and you can practice it easily at any time.  When you can do the Russian accent pretty well, then move to the "mental images" and new vocabulary.

Soon you'll be able to interchange words on command without mental translation allowing you to understand rapid foreign speech easier and also speak the words you do know as soon as you get an image in your mind of what you want to say...

Writing Russian by hand also reinforces with that hand to mind connection as well.

but no matter how you slice it.. grammar is a pain and will take some study and practice and, unless you really get seriously serious about it, will never be perfect.  Oh, and if you are like me, you will need to buy the electric rolling R tongue insert...

And as mentioned practice is paramount though tough to do alone.

Works for me so far anyway,
Dave

This is a very interesting post - holding many good tips.  My youngest daughter, while in elementary school, had a French language teacher from France for three years.  She invariably spoke French freely and unhesitatingly - in other words fluently.  Poor dad often scrambled and fumbled to make hide or hair of what she was saying since my reading comprehension of French exceeds my own ability to hear.  It amounts to un petite peu.

In addition, this same daughter at the age of fifteen takes the National Latin Exam and scores one of the highest scores ever in the history of the exam!  (Proud papa  )

Children don't translate - they associate.  They see, recognize and understand.  What Daveman said about the first month of study concentrating on sounds is important - very importatnt, but sounds change in context.  Two brief examples:

nozh pronounced nozh or nosh (knife)

s pronounced z in e.g. drug s drug'am (with one another)

There are many examples (easily learned) were slurring (not only with prepositions: e.g. v = f, on igraet v phutbol' (he plays soccer), but za to chto the fact that (pron. zatash ta) or potomu chto because (pron patomushta).

Perhaps Daveman meant to include this fact in what he said.

I would be interested to learn from either Lily, Serebro, or one of the males living in the FU if regional dialects evidence other deviations in pronounciation.  An example from Germany would be the pronounciation of the personal pronoun I = ik in Berlin, but pronounced ish in Niedersachsen region.

Christian

[Shadow]

Pronounciation is best learned from the language standard and not from any dialect. Otherwise you might end up thinking that you speak a  good deal in the dialect, where in reality you are mumbling some unintelligeable stuff.

The most funny example was in Argentina where they pronounce their variant of Spanish (Castellano) as 'Kastegano' instead of the Spanish 'Kasteliano'. After some days I started repeating their pronounciation, with a stunning effect. Unless I spoke it in the Spanish way, nobody understood me.

[SANDRO43]

The most funny example was in Argentina where they pronounce their variant of Spanish (Castellano) as 'Kastegano' instead of the Spanish 'Kasteliano'.

Spanish double L is pronounced J (as in jam) in Chile, too, and in some other SA countries as well.

IIRC, the SA Spanish closest to Castilian is spoken in Mexico, Venezuela & Cuba, probably due to the higher social class of their initial immigrants, Conquistadores bent on grabbing precious metals first, and land later, rather than peasants. Z and soft C as 'th' remain in Spain only, however.

[Christian]

Pronounciation is best learned from the language standard and not from any dialect. Otherwise you might end up thinking that you speak a  good deal in the dialect, where in reality you are mumbling some unintelligeable stuff.

The most funny example was in Argentina where they pronounce their variant of Spanish (Castellano) as 'Kastegano' instead of the Spanish 'Kasteliano'. After some days I started repeating their pronounciation, with a stunning effect. Unless I spoke it in the Spanish way, nobody understood me.

Doubtless many in the former USSR thought Stahlin's Russian was "unintelligeable stuff", but nobody would say that about Gorbachov or Anatassiaash's Georgian Russian.

Most language learning programs boast of Moscow's or St Peterburg's pronunciation as normative, but based on your own dictum factum in your first paragraph, Shadow, "the" Berliners are out of step and wholly wrong according to the Niedersaechische Aussprache, which is viewed as normative.  But, of course, the Berliners don't care and the Muenchener "beg to differ" (a circumlocution and a euphemistic rephrasing).  In fact, I would bet and am interested to learn whether the Kazanian Serebro, whose home is 500 miles removed from Moscow, thinks otherwise.

As far as your second paragraph goes comprenda nada, amigo.

Christian   

[Shadow]

Christian as an almost native 'Bayrish' speaker I can assure you that Germany hosts enough dialects that have dwelled far from 'Hochdeutsch', which is the official name for the language taught in schools.

From what I understand the normative Russian is not equal to the Moscovite, as people there tend to switch 'o' and 'a', also prolonging certain sounds. Equal to 'Hochdeutsch' or 'English' a common denominator that sounds clear and easy for most new speakers has been established in Russian, and is taught throughout the large territory (and beyond).

Based upon local culture and competing languages a deviation from the standard is a natural evolution of language, which over time can lead to a departure from the original and recognition of a separate language.

[Christian]

Christian as an almost native 'Bayrish' speaker I can assure you that Germany hosts enough dialects that have dwelled far from 'Hochdeutsch', which is the official name for the language taught in schools.

From what I understand the normative Russian is not equal to the Moscovite, as people there tend to switch 'o' and 'a', also prolonging certain sounds. Equal to 'Hochdeutsch' or 'English' a common denominator that sounds clear and easy for most new speakers has been established in Russian, and is taught throughout the large territory (and beyond).

Based upon local culture and competing languages a deviation from the standard is a natural evolution of language, which over time can lead to a departure from the original and recognition of a separate language.

Bayrish perhaps (sueddeutsch), but Goettingen and the northern city Bremen are viewed as the linguistc guardians of proper German pronunciation.

I thank you for your remarks about Russian, but I still would prefer hearing something from a Russian living there now or in the relatively recent past who could speak from their experience and observations.

BTW, if my GF were to pronounce it one way and the text book said something else, do you think I'm going to tell her she's wrong?!

And yes, the romance languages are derivatives of the Latin.

Christian