Seeking a bit of an advice

[jb]

T-Guy,

It isn't about how much income a man makes, it's how much disposible income he has.  I defy you to explain how someone with much less than 50K annual income can have enough left over after tax,  pays his mortage, insurance, car expenses, other living costs, feeds himself, etc., and still have enough disposible income to afford 3-4 trips per year.  Even using your off season rates, that still looks like a couple of K, on top of expenses while in country.    Even figuring the low ball end at 1.5K per trip that's still somewhere in the ballpark of 5-6K per annum after tax money. Even if he is successful in doing the K-1, will he have the 12-15K in the bank he will need when she arrives?  She's still going to need clothes, a car, education of some sort, and a whole host of other things.

I grow weary of trying to explain the facts of life to people who refuse to learn.

[Turboguy]

JB,  First you said

On the RWG we had this same discussion some time ago, and IIRC we determined that a salary of about $65-80K

Then in your next post you said

It isn't about how much income a man makes, it's how much disposible income he has

Have you ever considered a new career in politics, jb.  

I think when it comes to disposable income we are saying the same thing.    I used to know this couple a long time ago.  He was a heart surgeon and she was a doctor but I forget the specialty and they lived in a 5 million dollar house (1985 dollars) with a fountian in their front lawn that was 25' in diameter.   Their kitchen had three refrigerators and 3 stoves.   The upstairs exercise room was the size of my house and better equipped than some gyms and all they did was complain about money.  their water bill was $ 12,000 a month.  Their taxes were more than my house is worth.    It is not what you make, it is how you spend it.  

I have always believed that is someone wants something bad enough they will find a way to do it.    I am not saying someone flipping burgers in MickeyDee's should attempt this.    But your rules are meaningless.

[bbernard]

TurboGuy wrote:

I have always believed that is someone wants something bad enough they will find a way to do it. 

Turbo,

I agree with your statement above. Although this very true there are still costs involved which will limit the ability of a lot of people to finish what they start on this journey. Can someone shift ones financial priorities around? Sure... but if they need to work two jobs or max out there credit cards in the courting phase, how successful will they be? It seems to me that if they fell into the categories mentioned above that they would be planting the seeds for failure or at the very least a major struggle should they find a woman and follow through to marriage. Can you agree??

bbernard

[BC]

It's sort of like those stores where no pricetags are displayed. If you even come close to thinking twice don't even think about going inside.

Take what you think the entire venture is going to cost and multiply by at least 3.

Believe me.
 

[Turboguy]

So are you guys saying these gals are simply marrying for money?    They they are only going to come if you are willing to have a high maintenance woman.  

jb said  "Even if he is successful in doing the K-1, will he have the 12-15K in the bank he will need when she arrives? She's still going to need clothes, a car, education of some sort, and a whole host of other things."

I keep going back to my buddy Mike from Michigan who was on a tour last year with me to Moscow and St Petersbug.   Mike is probably about ready to get engaged to one of the gals I hooked him up with.   He has been up front with her that he lives in an old house in the country and has a limited income but he is comfortable and has no debt.   Inna is happy as a lark with that.  Truthfully I tink think they will do fine and I have no idea what Mike makes but I think it is well below the figures you are quoting.    He is in a low cost area.   That $ 65,000 you mentioned will have you eating out of dumpsters if you live in NYC or SF and living like a king if you live where he does or I do. 

Going back to jb's statement, my gal, likely won't need a car.   She tells me she got her drivers liscense in Russia, drove twice and destroyed the car both times.   I couldn't even get her to drive the dodgem cars in the amusement park. 

jb said "I grow weary of trying to explain the facts of life to people who refuse to learn."   That was funny jb,  I wish I had all the answers.

[Bruno]

I did not remember the early part of Doug's posts about the convention.   I have been here since this board was pretty young but may have just lightly skimmed through that part.  Thanks for filling me in.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/view_topic.php?id=108&forum_id=3

5 Feb 2005 : Doug : She says she will be away next week at Kiev at
a business convention. She works as a beautician/manicurist.
Am I paranoid in thinking she might be meeting some foreign guy?

11 Feb 2005 : RacerX : And, yes, when a RW tells you she will be gone at a "business convention" we are talking "monkey business!"

First real attack

15 Feb 2005 : Albert : Photo Guy, you are getting way ahead of the game here.  There can be no exclusivity because of the distance between you two.  Most certainly the business trip is BS.  Beauticians do not go on these sort of trips.  This is most likely a trip to be a hooker at a business convention.


16 Feb 2005 : JB : Based upon what I personally know, beauticians do not go out of town much. There just isn't a two week convention of beauticians anywhere in the FSU. If she told you that, she was pulling your chain.

16 Feb 2005 : Me  : i publish too link over convention both in Russia and Ukraine...

3 March 2005 : Michael : Yes, she is probably meeting someone else and not going to a "convention." But that is ok. The girl I pursued for a year and a half made a half dozen trips, and I knew she was meeting other guys.

For more, read the full topic

[line]

Turbo, i find your appartment at $60 night very expensive... When i was the last time in Nikolaev, i have pay $200 for one month... and the first time $150 for one month... for my stay, i have enough with $200 week... i only try to life during my stay like local people or a little more high level...

Since i don't meet a doctor, lawer, of other lady from very "high" class, it is not really a problem... and since i date shopgirl, beautician,  factory worker... the level of life that i can affort the the lady is not really a problem too...

I am from middle class like Doug... and we meet middle class woman... we stay in our level and this don't lead to problem... the budget needed for dating, marriage, living together is in function of your level of life... not that one class is better that other but they are different world... Several here are enough fortunate and they use for reference about financial, own experience... but us, medium class can life very good with lower money...

It is hard to say, but your change for find the right woman is more high if you hunt somebody like yourself... a bus driver and beautician is a perfect mix... a carpenter man with a carpenter woman is a other good example... and it is not only about financial, people from the same class are more able to understand each other, to have the same hobby, the same level of education, ...

One time, when i was fighting with Mark, he have make a very good remark over our respective agency... we was not for the same public... this is true with woman too... you have different level and a mix lead only to more problem... So, i think that Doug make it good in the choice of woman and with his budget...

Several year ago, i cannot imagine how to life with what i earn now... my actual income was only good for one evening in these time... and it is my first russian wife who have learn me to life with a low income... my 1500 euro month was enough for three people, for a yearly trip in Russia, for pay a private school for the child, for pay a total insurance for hospital, for ... only, we have make our shopping in cheap shop, i have begin make all the "man" work at home myself... and her, the "woman" work... and seriously, when i see some family, from more lower class that me, with 872 euro month, for a couple and 3 children, i cannot imagine how they make... but they make it and they are happy...

[Turboguy]

Hi Bruno,  well, I think apartments are more expensive by the day and more expensive in Kiev than in the smaller cities.    That rate is what I paid on my last trip and it was a little more than usual because the Orange Revolution was going on. 

When I was there everyone had orange hats, orange scarfs, orange jackets, orange everything.   There were hundreds of thousands of people in orange.   I said to the gal I was meeting, of Yushenko's color is orange, does the other guy have a color?  She said, Yes he does.   I said well what is his color.  She said blue.  I looked down.  I was wearing blue pants, blue shirt, and blue an white coat.   It is good that was a non violent revolution or I might be fertilzer in Kiev.   I did notice a lot of people looking at me funny.

I enjoy arguing with jb because he is so stubborn but I do think that if you want to do something bad enough you will find a way.   If you are upfront with your gal if she can't deal with the life she is going to have then that is her choice.    I have done the impossible a lot of times and the totally impossible a time or two so I just really believe if you have a dream and you really are willing to do whatever you can to make it come true, you can do it.   I do agree with the earlier comment that it is not always the case when women are involved. 

PS, I was here all of 10 days  when Doug's convention conversation happened.  I guess I do remember a bit about it but it was all a bit new to me then and there were a lot of differnet people and a lot of different stories.

[jb]

I enjoy arguing with jb

That's obvious.

but I do think that if you want to do something bad enough you will find a way.

Yep, even to the point of not being able to adequately support the needs of your new bride.  My guess is you intend to keep her barefoot and preggers for the next five years.  You kill me...

Look, T-Guy, every FSU woman coming across the pond has visions of living at least the middle class American dream, just how unhappy do you want to make her?  They all watch the American soaps on Russian TV, they all know what the average American house looks like on "Beverly Hills 90205", "Dallas", and a bunch of other American TV shows.  If you bring a woman into a dump that is less than what she knows the rest of American lives in,,, God help you.

[Bruno]

Yep, it was the beginning of all... i think that now, after six month, it will be time to close the chapter... from both side...

[Bruno]

They all watch the American soaps on Russian TV, they all know what the average American house looks like on "Beverly Hills 90205", "Dallas", and a bunch of other American TV shows. If you bring a woman into a dump that is less than what she knows the rest of American lives in,,, God help you.

It is almost a insult to the intelligence of RW... some RW have more that only one brain cell and they know that what the TV show is not the reality... a chance, other the good woman will never marry a American man... since these "Dallas" or "Beverly Hills" show people with drugs and alcohol problem, with infidelity, with money more important that feeling...

And don't be worry, during my last stay, i have not see "Dallas" or "Beverly Hills" on the channel of ukrainian TV... but i have see the "Simpson's"... so, now, they have a other meaning over the American :D:D ... a other shows i have see in Ukraine is "Married... with children"  ...  The Doug family will be certainly better that the Bundy family  ... so, he have his chance... :cool:

 

[jb]

4Q2, Bruno

[Turboguy]

I knew there was another thing I like about my gal.  She doesn't watch TV.    Actaully my gal complained a lot about the first apartment I had in N. Novgorod.  She said it was a rich persons apartment and something like that was not necessary.   Hopefully housing is not high on her list. 

Actually she paid for the apartments after that one so perhaps it is not a priority for her to house me luxuriously.   She finds our living situation very confusing.  She does not know why anyone would want a house instead of an apartment and why you would need more than two rooms.

I was talking hypothetically jb.  I think she will be fine with the house.  If she saw it right now she would run for the hills.   I am remodeling like crazy and it is a big mess.   I get by just fine and can afford to go to Russia whenever I want for as long as I want.   That still does not mean that I think you MUST have a high income to make this work.   I believe like Bruno that there are different levels of expectations.

[Turboguy]

[user=130]Son of Clyde[/user] wrote:

When Irina is here in three weeks I think I am going to retire from RWD & RWG and concentrate on building our life together.

Son of Clyde, if you do retire from RWD I am sure we will all miss your great advice and great attitude. 

Keep this in mind though.   You have never been married.  Most women spend about half their life in the bathroom getting ready.   Even to get the newspaper they need hours.   You may have more free time than you expect and if you do, coming here will be a great way to spend it.

I will be faced with the same decison not much after you.   If all goes well for the interview my gal will arrive one month from tomorrow.   I don't plan to retire from RWD but I know I will have to cut back a lot.    This has been a great way to spend the time while I was waiting.   It let me learn what pitfalls may lie ahead from guys that are old hands at it.  

Like any normal guy I have hopes of a happy life of marrital bliss but if it does turn out to be the marriage from hades I have even had a lot of chance to hone my arguing skills here.   This place is the compete package. 

Good luck Clyde.   I hopy you have the happiest marriage ever.

[andrewfi]

Any man who thinks these women are not marrying for money needs his bumps felt.

There has to be a very good reason why any person leaves friends, family, home, job and culture behind and it is not for 'average' of anything. So, a woman does not leave her home t be with 'ordinary', unless, for her, ordinary is a stretch.

So, do you want a woman for whom 'ordinary' or 'average' is aspirational?

If you do, then what kind of an excuse for a person are you?

How do I know? - I did it!

So, for Mr Ordinary, whether he be called Mike, or Doug, or Phil, or Andrew; ask why it would be that anyone would give up all they have for the mundane. Having asked and answered the question, the cost of the next visa can be saved.

A cross cultural relationship, for adults, is not for the mundanes. If this is not PC enough, sorry. But the mundanes can not manage the leap. They do not have what is needed in terms of money, intelligence, emotional strength, exerience - whatever. If they did, they would not be mundane, ordinary or average.

All the mundane can hope for, in a cross cultural relationship, is an aspirational sub-normal. Does even Mr Average want that? If he does, does he need to go to another country to find such a one?

Sorry if this bites. The world is designed, in many respects, for the average. This is an area of life that is not so designed. Some people are best served by staying where they were put. Step too far away from where the things the ordinaries can deal with exist and unhappiness will result.

[Photo Guy]

jb,
You want to say that I'm a gambler in a high risk game that is fine.
No problem. I'm not bothered by tough advice. You seem like you are just not getting it.  THIS is what bothers me:
        (I won't use an extremely large font)
1- criticizing her appearance
2- criticiizing her occupation
3- telling me I can 'do better', which also puts her down.
I'll PM this to you.  Doug

[Photo Guy]

Andrewfin,
I think you are being too tough on yourself. You just can't group people into neat little boxes with labels. How materialistic a person (RW) is, depends on the individual. To your way of thinking, we should have very strict requirements for those thinking of pursuing a RW. How do RW feel about this? Maybe we can have RW give us a checklist of their basic requirements, like a 'small house in LA', or a 'medium sized home wth a pool in Houston'. We can add bunch of stuff to that list, like what kind of car model, year. And seriously now, she should know how much debt he has and his credit rating Fico score, etc. Can she be looking forward to a serious chunk of inheritance from the in-laws? Moving from financially exceptional, we can go on to 'exceptional personality', but that would be more out in the open through the course of 'dating'.  I caution everyone not to judge someone's financial resources, based on the tiny glimpses of the members we see here at RWD.  Newbies should be encouraged to analyze the costs involved. That is just common sense.  Doug    

[Photo Guy]

LOL Bruno.

Yeah, I do believe there are spiritual women in the FSU, and there are women there who value kindness, loyalty, and an entire range of values beyond materialism. Sure they want better living conditions.
That doesn't eclipse all other values.   Doug, in my 'shack'  

[Photo Guy]

Andrewfin, I do not know who you are speaking to, but for myself, personally, I definitely do NOT fit into the category of 'average' or 'ordinary'.  I even see 'normal' as too 'mundane'.  LOL.

But, seriously, can't your 'average' guy connect with your 'average' woman in the FSU?  I'm sure that can happen, and with good results.

[Turboguy]

How do I know? - I did it!

So, for Mr Ordinary, whether he be called Mike, or Doug, or Phil, or Andrew; ask why it would be that anyone would give up all they have for the mundane. Having asked and answered the question, the cost of the next visa can be saved.

A cross cultural relationship, for adults, is not for the mundanes. If this is not PC enough, sorry. But the mundanes can not manage the leap. They do not have what is needed in terms of money, intelligence, emotional strength, exerience - whatever. If they did, they would not be mundane, ordinary or average.

All the mundane can hope for, in a cross cultural relationship, is an aspirational sub-normal. Does even Mr Average want that? If he does, does he need to go to another country to find such a one?

Sorry if this bites. The world is designed, in many respects, for the average. This is an area of life that is not so designed. Some people are best served by staying where they were put. Step too far away from where the things the ordinaries can deal with exist and unhappiness will result.

Andrewfin, I don't know what in the world you are trying to say there but whatever it is sounds like a bunch of egotistical gargage.    You said that a you married a women for whom average was aspaerational, I think.  My condolences.   I am pretty average, but I never did that.   You said a cross cultural relationship for adults is not for the mundanes.  Why not?   there is a need for guys for the mundane women of the FSU.  Actually the mundane women there are much more desirable than the mundane women here.  Why not a step up in the mundane asperations.  What is wrong with that.

You are sorry if it bites.    I guarantee you it did not bite anyone.  It didn't even make much sense.   Who in the heck are you to tell anyone where they should stay put.  Lastly but not leastly, who in the heck are you to feel you are so much better than the Mikes, phils and Dougs of the world.

[jb]

I understood Andrew's post perfectly, and I agree with him, money and a better life style are indeed the prime motovators.  You'd have to be smoking crack not to understand this.

While it's true that the "average" American's home is far above what the "average" RW lives in, it takes almost no time for the newly arrived RW to get up to speed on what "average" means in her new homeland.

Because of the cash required to do this; the search, trips, immigration, adjustment, etc., many of the women coming to the USA are with men of better than average means.  They live in nice homes in good neighborhoods.  Your newly arrived RW will quickly meet with other RWs, they will just as quickly size up how the other sisters live.  All you need ask yourself is how does your home stack up?  If it's up to par, you are probably ok.  If there's room for improvement you may as well prepare yourself for the worst.

 

[Photo Guy]

Okay, now let's hear from the RW.
Is jb right on target with this one? Donna? Fiorella? MandM?
Mischief? Olya? Etna? Lulu? Naomi?

[Bruno]

PS : JB, don't need reply by "4Q2"... if you don't have argument, keep your insult for yourself... these insult are not interesting for the forum... and they don't touch me anymore since i know from who they come...

[BC]

If I had been sitting on a sidewalk in my Sunday blues with a hat in front of me my wife would have walked right by without a second thought.. no matter how good or sexy I looked.

It's quite normal and universal.

Many men on the other hand seeing a good looking woman sitting on the street would likely strike up a conversation to find out what the problem was etc etc..

Strange world isn't it.

[andrewfi]

One of the more interesting facets of boards like this one is the ongoing delusion of many American guys that the woman that they have imported from the FSU is with the guy just because she loves him. Why interesting?

Because it is so far from the reality.

The women actively seeking a foreign guy do it, overwhelmingly, for economic betterment. If you are a 'Mr Average' then as soon as your 'loved one' realises what she has got she has to make some new choices. She may decide to tough it out, if she likes you. She may decide to be off and improve her lot however she can.

What many people do not realise is that poverty is relative. So, yes, you take your moppet out of her horrid little apartment and she is happy, for a while. But when she realises that all she has now, in relative terms, is what she had before, she will likely feel cheated. That is one reason why Mr Average is going to have problems. Factor in the ability of guys to follow through because they are too poor to afford the requisite trips and communication (cf. the case of a certain other poster who can not get back to see his loved one for many months...) and we see the difficulties.

Just becasue she has not yet left her relatively poor guy does not mean she is happy or satisfied, appearances notwithstanding!

So, the average (poor) guys flatter themselves that 'love will conquer all' and rely upon inaccurate perceptions of how wealth and poverty are perceived and the rich guys flatter themsleves that the woman they are with is with them for 'love'. EEEK!

So, this is not a sport for the 'average' man on a financial level. Not for the mundanes.

On an emotional level?

Again no. If many of the posters on these boards are to be considered 'average' or 'normal', then this is not a game for the mundanes. Managing a relationship when one can not communicate, except with third parties? Foolish. But learning a new language, from scratch, is, for many, a very difficult thing, not for the average man coming home from his night shift.

Any adult who has to be asking for basic relationship advice (does she like me?) from a bunch of strangers can not be considered to be average. That person has a way to go yet, but how can such a one hope to be able to deal with the rigours of a cross cultural relationship when one has not the built in knowledge and experience to provide the needed insights, on the spot.

So, I was asked who was I addressing? Well, the answer is that as most of any normal population clusters around the average, we can assume that I was referring to most people. The ones who are not a part of the population of mundanes probably know who they are. This is not a game for the ordinary, no matter how much they might aspire.

[Ste]

Any adultwho has to be asking for basic relationship advice (does she like me?)from a bunch of strangers can not be considered to be average. That person has a way to go yet, but how can such a one hope to be able to deal with the rigours of a cross cultural relationship when one has not the built in knowledge and experience to provide the neededinsights, on the spot.

So, I was asked who was I addressing? Well, the answer is that as most of any normal population clusters around the average, we can assume that I was referring to most people. The ones who are not a part of the population of mundanes probably know who they are. This is not a game for the ordinary, no matter how much they might aspire.

I agree. I've posted on quite a few of these groups and I am surprised by some of the plain daft teen-type questions that get posted by some adults. 'Does she like me' 'What does it mean when....' 'Do RW's prefer fat, balding guys...'

I also see a lot of guys 'going over', 'doing the K-1' and then to 'get her here ASAP', making it sound like an import project without any thought about how she might feel about being dragged 10000 miles from home with knowing language or culture.

Not everyone is that way of course, there are no 100%'s, always exceptions.

Also i was thinking about Andrews money-motivation thesis, and again, no 100%'s but u have to consider the mindset of the girl walking into the International Dating/Marriage Agency and what her motivations are. She's thinking about potential rich husbands from the USA. Handsome, fit and sexually alluring too but u have to admit, before she sees any pictures or profiles, the economic factor is foremost in her mind.

Also I often wonder if the guys put in their profiles 'I want to move to FSU to live there' how many responses they would get, and the type of girl that would respond. Would be interesting.

I think to rise above Andrew's average you have put more effort into this then just taking a few trips. There's her language to learn, literature to read, the possibility of moving there if she doesn't want/can't come to you.

It's not just a wife hunt - it's a way of life hunt! My life is totally changed since the 22 months i've known Nadia, isn't that what life is all about?

Ste