Character Problems with RM and RW

[Kuna]

 

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one amused by the comments of our "veteran seeker"... 

Turbo... which part of this do you agree with?

After one year of reading this forum I came to the following conclusion - most of FSU women a foreigner will meet in his pursuit will be empty, brutal, impolite, rude, offensive, vulgar, boorish, and heartless…The qualities listed above are NOT common among FSU women

A character flaw I've heard of and only seen a little of (because I'm very inexperienced when it comes to FSUW) is that some FSUW seem to put down other FSUW to make themselves feel better.  I guess this comes from insecurity and a feeling of inadequacy and probably leads them to say things like that quoted above.

I know My Girl said there were a few "whispered disparaging rumours" going around her office after she resigned but it has been interested to see MANY girls that weren't really "friends" bond very closely with her since she started winding things up at home and after arriving here.

She gets daily emails asking about her new hometown and how she perceives things and all of those comments are positive and inquisitive. Everyday she sends photos back and every day there are probably 10 or so girls commenting and in some way maybe wanting to be a part of the journey.

The overwhelming message I'm getting from her interactions with those at "home" confirm my suspicions about the reasons for "good girls" to look abroad.  The common theme is very much that the women are seeking higher value relationships than they believe they can have at home and therefore quite a number of My Girl's "associates" now may too seek an international relationship.



On BF's comments... I found these fascinating. 

The concept of a couple wrestling to be the weaker one is totally foreign to me and I'd love to hear more discussion on this. 

Typically in Oz (and I'm sure in other western countries) the arm wrestle after marriage is for who has control... not who relinquishes control.

We all want to be pampered at times but surely we all also want the freedom and power to make decisions and do valuable things in our relationships??? 

Kuna

[Turboguy]

Turbo... which part of this do you agree with?

Kuna

After one year of reading this forum

I agree she has been reading the forum for a year.  If I wanted to nitpick it would be more like 14 months.

I came to the following conclusion - most of FSU women a foreigner will meet in his pursuit will be empty, brutal, impolite, rude, offensive, vulgar, boorish, and heartless

She is talking about her impressions from reading RWD.   I think I could link a hundred or so TR's and comments that would support it if I felt like spending my weekend doing that but I don't.    There are a few on this end of the hunt that are also empty, brutal, impolite, rude, offensive, vulgar, boorish and heartless as well. 

The qualities listed above are NOT common among FSU women

I believe that.   Most of the RW I have met have been very thoughtfull, intelligent, caring and helpful.   I have met a few that would fit the other description and a few that may best be described using totally different terms. 

[Gator]

Blues Fairy,

It's a known fact that early in the relationship, many couples start unconcsiously fighting for the role of care recipient, or "the little one".  They get sick in turns, because the sicker and the more unfortunate you are, the more pampering and emotional support you deserve.  Eventually the more adult one gives in and assumes the role of the emotional caregiver; not unfrequently it is the woman who has to do so.

As Kuna said, "fascinating."  BF, you have introduced a concept totally new to me and something I would never have expected for a RM.  Another reason that RW respect strong men.  Not every RM is this way or there would be no recruits for the mafia. 

[KenC]

Sorry Turbo, but until you get a little deeper into a relationship with a RW, your view of them has been limited to the dating stages of the relationship.  Even though you have met many many more RW than I have, you have yet to spend your first day married to one.  So you have not yet got to the "honeymoon" stage as of yet.  Get back to us after a couple of years and let us know what's up, OK?

Point being that it relatively easy to present a very good impression of yourself while dating or on vacation at an exotic local in a four star hotel.  How the attitudes may change when the everyday routine of marriage sets in and there is nothing more to win, is a whole nother kettle of fish.  And I have a news flash for you, that my friend will be the rest of your life.  I am not picking on you or VWRW, it is true for everyone.
KenC

[KenC]

VWRW,
You may be correct that my example was too extreme, but the level of "directness" or "bluntness" displayed by RW tend to be much more so than in America in general.  (Which you will only experience, once you have lived here for a while)  I know I had to talk with Lena quite a bit to tone herself down because she was appearing to be too aggressive with people.  Maybe it is the language, but my personal thoughts are that life in Russia is just more harsh than here.  The Russians/Ukrainians I have come to know (both men and women) seem to be suspect of strangers and assume the worst about people whereas Americans expect the best.  A perfect example is smiling.  Here we start with a smile whereas in Russia a scowl is the national posture.
KenC

[Turboguy]

Ken,  I agree with what you said totally.   I am not counting any victories yet and agree that the jury will be out for a few years.   I do think we will do fine but until our relationship has passed the test of time that is purely speculation. 

I will say our summer together was more like living a normal married life than a vacation despite the setting.  We were not in a 4 star hotel.  We were in an apartment cooking our own meals, washing our own clothes and doing very few vacation types of things.   About the only difference was no one had to go to work but I did a fair amount of work there anyway. 

I do agree that when she is here and we settle into a normal life we will find out a lot more. 

[KenC]

Blues Fairy,

As Kuna said, "fascinating."  BF, you have introduced a concept totally new to me and something I would never have expected for a RM.  Another reason that RW respect strong men.  Not every RM is this way or there would be no recruits for the mafia. 

Gator,
I don't know how prevalent that characteristic is in RW.  I know Lena is no shrinking violet and if anything there is a constant struggle for control here in our household.  My own Mother and both Grandmothers were very strong women.  (Remember, I am Russian too)  The family dynamics that I have witnessed were pretty similar to Lena and I.
KenC

[KenC]

Ken,  I agree with what you said totally.   I am not counting any victories yet and agree that the jury will be out for a few years.   I do think we will do fine but until our relationship has passed the test of time that is purely speculation. 

I will say our summer together was more like living a normal married life than a vacation despite the setting.  We were not in a 4 star hotel.  We were in an apartment cooking our own meals, washing our own clothes and doing very few vacation types of things.   About the only difference was no one had to go to work but I did a fair amount of work there anyway. 

I do agree that when she is here and we settle into a normal life we will find out a lot more. 

Fair 'nuff, Turbo,
But remember that everyone entering into marriage predicts success.
KenC

[Turboguy]

I don't know about everybody Ken.  I wasn't very confident of success in my marriage.  I had a strong feeling it was going to be a big mistake and I was right. 

[KenC]

I don't know about everybody Ken.  I wasn't very confident of success in my marriage.  I had a strong feeling it was going to be a big mistake and I was right. 

Turbo,
In that case, you are a fool.
KenC

[Lily]

I have seen some RW measure a man's devotion in part by what he spends on her.  Some RW are happy with the smallest present.  Others expect more knowing that a Western man has more to spend.  Is this a character flaw deriving from years of poverty?  Or is this Russian culture?   
 

It probably belongs to a part of culture. Many RW grow up with an idea that the purpose of men's existence is to provide for women  and the woman's success is measured on how well she is able to get things and resources out of her man. I said 'many' because I heard this standpoint many times. 'Many women' does not mean 'most Russian women'.

It also may make a quasi-Oriental trait in Russiam society. Once I read that a basic of the oriental mentality, and of Islam in particular, would be that women have only rights and no duties. They say women are not suppressed but privileged instead. That means, they are entitled to receive from men everything they need.

On the other hand, many Russian men, particularly the ambitious and successful men, nourish this idea. They apparently spend willingly on their woman. The more lavish the spending is, the faster his self-worth apparently grows.. Some men express that the more serious his intentions are, the more expensive presents he buys. However, I don't think this is a pure Russian feature, it seems to be rather international.

Well, in some cases the joy induced by receiving an expensive gift may really be rooted in her poverty. Say, if she dreamed of those expensive boots that cost her monthly salary, she would be sincerely happy to have them.

[Lily]

Do you feel that this poverty-induced character will carry forward into marriage with a Western man?  I read many stories of American husbands being impressed by the frugality of their wives.  [This is perhaps better asked to the married men]. 

 

That 's an interesting question.

Sometimes I ask myself how would my relatives behave if they suddenly changed from their small incomes onto the bigger salaries and nicer life in the States, and the answer does not come easy.

By the way, I feel that you interpret the features mentioned by me as the relations-related ones. For instance, by indecisiveness you probably mean an ability to deal with personal relationship. My point however was not quite that. By 'decisiveness' I meant an ability to take decisions like entering in some life enveavours, e.g. changing jobs, place of living, making purchases, entering in transactions, etc. Not relations based. I agree, in the latter things RW are rather courageous. 

Now back to the poverty induced traits.

In the late Soviet press I read about the so-called 'poor eating habits' that Russian short-term visitors exhibited in the Western countries. Russians bought the cheapest food, avoided the public transportation, saved their daily allowances.The writers were apparently ashamed..

Now we have a person moving permanently in the country where she is supposed to live and to became a member in the society.  As soon as her husband gives her security, my guesses would be that some of her poverty induced traits may evaporate. Alternatively though, she may became a spender..

How her personality would change after moving, is a really tough question. It probably depends on how strong her personality is..it may depends on how willing is she to change herself...and what would her changing direction be..

[Blues Fairy]

The concept of a couple wrestling to be the weaker one is totally foreign to me and I'd love to hear more discussion on this. 
Typically in Oz (and I'm sure in other western countries) the arm wrestle after marriage is for who has control... not who relinquishes control.

And who says the weaker one has no control?  He/she gets to manipulate the other to his/her heart's content! It's just another form of the power struggle.

But seriously, I am by no means saying all couples in Russia wrestle like that.  I only used this example to explain why many RM, especially those who were raised by manipulative parents (and that's a great many!), exibit behavior far from acceptable for a head of family.  Again, this phenomenon is obviously not exclusive of Russia, though western culture does encourage "achiever" behavior more than Russian culture.     

[Blues Fairy]

It probably belongs to a part of culture. Many RW grow up with an idea that the purpose of men's existence is to provide for women  and the woman's success is measured on how well she is able to get things and resources out of her man. I said 'many' because I heard this standpoint many times.

Yes, in most cases this has nothing to do with poverty.  I have a few female friends who would evaluate any new male acquaintance for his generosity/stinginess before and above all else.  Seems to be some kind of litmus test related to his other "manly" qualities. 

[Turboguy]

I think it is a number of things.

I think sometimes a RW knows if she marries you she will be largely dependent on you for her financial support for a while.   I think if she perceives you as greedy and stingy she will think you will not provide a good life for her and she may try some things as a test of how you would be in a marriage.

I think to some see all American's as rich and think living the high life is normal and sees dating an American man and marrying one as setting herself up for a life of luxury.   This is probably a good type to avoid unless you like that kind of life yourself.

Then too you get some serial daters who are just out for what they can get.  That too is a good type of person to avoid. 

Both my former fiancee and VWRW are very conservative about money and very protective of my money.  I have a feeling that if a woman tried to use seeing how lavishly I spent money on her as a test of my suitability, I would fail the test and her trying that would be an unintentional test that she would fail as well.

[Gator]

Lilly and Blues Fairy,

Very insightful comments, as usual.  Thank you.

We can never paint all RW with the same brush.  Some of you know that I was engaged to two different RW, my Moscow woman and the Cossack.  The Cossack was more frugal, yet did measure my “devotion” and “trustworthiness” by the gifts I presented her.  The Moscow woman enjoys her gifts as well, but considers the whole picture (such as the relationship between her kids and me).

The Cossack spoke only basic English and my Russian is worse, so communication was very difficult.  On two separate occasions of presenting gifts while traveling together a misunderstanding occurred: she interpreted the grey as black and she let me know that she could not trust me to take care of her and her children in America.  What!!!! 

Neither time did I do the RM trick of spending more.  Instead, I said this is a misunderstanding and we need to talk about it with an interpreter when we return home.  Those talks proved fruitless, which made me question her commitment, her ability to resolve issues, and her intelligence.  Even more important, I believe that if she had loved me truly, she would have interpreted each case as no worse than light grey. 

[KenC]

Both my former fiancee and VWRW are very conservative about money and very protective of my money.  I have a feeling that if a woman tried to use seeing how lavishly I spent money on her as a test of my suitability, I would fail the test and her trying that would be an unintentional test that she would fail as well.

Turbo,
How can you discount travel to Egypt, Thailand and Barbados?  I think that is lavish for a short period of time..
KenC

[William3rd]

And Bush is a fiscal conservative, too. 

[KenC]

Lilly and Blues Fairy,

Very insightful comments, as usual.  Thank you.

We can never paint all RW with the same brush.  Some of you know that I was engaged to two different RW, my Moscow woman and the Cossack.  The Cossack was more frugal, yet did measure my “devotion” and “trustworthiness” by the gifts I presented her.  The Moscow woman enjoys her gifts as well, but considers the whole picture (such as the relationship between her kids and me).

The Cossack spoke only basic English and my Russian is worse, so communication was very difficult.  On two separate occasions of presenting gifts while traveling together a misunderstanding occurred: she interpreted the grey as black and she let me know that she could not trust me to take care of her and her children in America.  What!!!! 

Neither time did I do the RM trick of spending more.  Instead, I said this is a misunderstanding and we need to talk about it with an interpreter when we return home.  Those talks proved fruitless, which made me question her commitment, her ability to resolve issues, and her intelligence.  Even more important, I believe that if she had loved me truly, she would have interpreted each case as no worse than light grey. 

Gator,
It takes a lot of time and (good) communication in order for a couple to get on the same page as to what is lavish and what is frugal.  And then there may always be a different view on priorities in spending.  After 8 years, Lena and I still do not see eye to eye on some issues in this area.  I try to be very respectful to her wishes, but in the end I follow the golden rule.  Those with the gold, make the rules!   As you will be the main (sole?) financial supporter of your family, she has to come around to your way of thinking here, not vise versa.
KenC

[Gator]

KenC,

As you will be the financial supporter of your family, she has to come around to your way of thinking here, not vise versa.

She did not, and we are NOT.  More was involved, of course. 

The Moscow woman and I share the same philosophy with regard to money and just about everything else.  Although neither one of us is frugal,  we are both conservative.  It is very difficult to find someone who thinks like a partner, but I have.

[Turboguy]

I am glad to hear that Gator.   I think it is one of the elements that men don't look at hard enough and one that can put more strain on a marriage than most anything else.

[KenC]

KenC,
She did not, and we are NOT.  More was involved, of course. 

The Moscow woman and I share the same philosophy with regard to money and just about everything else.  Although neither one of us is frugal,  we are both conservative.  It is very difficult to find someone who thinks like a partner, but I have.

Gator,
Then it appears that you have made the right choice.

There is more to this than can be blamed on "character flaws" too.  I know Lena had some difficulty wrapping her mind around the concept of what was expensive and what wasn't when she first arrived here.  I remember being floored a few times by her statements regarding purchases.  It wasn't that she was of bad character, it was just not having a grip on what is normal and what is not.  Lena is a very intelligent woman, but math was never her strong suite!
KenC

[Turboguy]

Turbo,
How can you discount travel to Egypt, Thailand and Barbados?  I think that is lavish for a short period of time..
KenC

The bank account I used to have would agree with you Ken.  The reality of it was that it was not that much more expensive than me going to Barnaul and going to Siberia in mid winter is not very pleasant.  Going those places probably cost me an extra $ 1500 each and they were places we might never get to go otherwise.

Our trips to Sochi and Barbados/Grenada had different purposes.   We were as you know in Administrative Review.  I was in touch with dozens of people in A/R and some had been in it for years.   The longest I have heard of was 8 years.   Had we stayed in Administrative Review we would have found a place to live together.   I had always said if I had to live in Russia I would pick Sochi.  I had never been there.  The trip to Sochi was to see if we liked it and neither of us had a desire to live there.

Barbados and Grenada was for two purposes.  To spend an extended time living as a married couple would and to check out other possible places to live if we stayed in A/R.   It is very easy to find a 4 or 5 star hotel on those Islands for $ 500.00 a night.  We stayed in a $ 55.00 a night apartment in Barbados and a $ 70.00 a night apartment in Grenada.  We lived a pretty normal life cooking, washing clothes, etc.   We went swimming 2 times in Barbados and about every 3rd day in Grenada.  The only tourist things we did in Grenada was a walk through the small museum and a walk to the fort.  The only tourist things we did in Barbados was a submarine ride, jet skiing one time, and a 7 mile walk to the Aquarium.   All summer we ate three meals in restaurants, one was the food court in the mall, one a burger joint and one a nice restaurant.  The rest of the time we ate in the apartment. 

Had we stayed in A/R or not had a successful interview, Grenada would have been our choice to live and we would be working on relocating there now.  We even talked about businesses we would go into there if we ended up living there which would have either been buying an apartment complex or buying a few acres between Grand Anse and the city and setting up things for tourists to do in Grenada which is sorely lacking. 

On the subject of her being conservative about money I had been thinking about a honeymoon in Hawaii when we reached that point.  VWRW asked that we not take a honeymoon because we have traveled so much and she does not want me to spend the money for a honeymoon.   I think we may go to Niagara Falls for a long weekend or something like that.   She is very conservative with my money.  When we went to the store she would study each grocery item for 5 minutes deciding which is the cheapest and best value.  Several times in Sochi we would go in a restaurant, she would see the price of meals and we would leave.   We ate a lot at a cafeteria with an average meal cost for a chicken dinner of about $ 4.00

[KenC]

Turbo,
You can spend your money any way you want, dude, it is no matter to me.  I didn't question VWRW's character (which is the theme of this thread BTW), but did question your statement about you not passing the "lavish" test.  You make too light of the amount of money you did spend IMO.  Three trips in the space of a year (?) with one being an extended stay is quite a bit for the average person.  You may be a Walmart shoe wearing guy, but you didn't cheap out when it came to travel!
KenC

Let's get back on topic now

[jen]

Yep- given the low low low success rates, there is a lot of loser meets reject. The cream floats to the top over the long term.

"I wonder if this suggests that in both countries, even the men and women who do pursue international romance are vulnerable to the same stereotypes?  That they believe their own intentions are good, but figure that most other people are doing it for the wrong reasons? Or do you have lots of direct experiences (as I guess WmGo would) with men or women of questionable character? (Don't worry, I'm not going to record this as fact as you say yes, I'm just curious to know your experiences/opinions about the "mainstream" of men or women who pursue international dating, especially through agencies.)"


Jen, I believe that, in their heart of hearts, the participants know whether they are  searching for the right reasons, or the wrong ones, from the first day that they declare themselves to be "in the hunt."

Unless, of course, they are so totally lost emotionally that they deceive themselves. The subsequent actions tell far more about their intentions or makeup than their express intentions while in the hunt.

oops, in this I meant to say William3rd, not WmGO, since I know Willliam3rd has lots of agency experience...