Character Problems with RM and RW

[SANDRO43]

I would be the latter. Without religion, I would change my views pertaining to the RM and RW who commit adultery and even be compasionate to their view of accepting this behavior. If this is the only life to live with no consequences of one's actions, then why not fulfill all your wishes and achieve all pleasures of life as long as it's within man's law? Gator, maybe lack of religion partially explains the lackadaisical view pertaining to adultery in the FSU. Most of my views against adultery were created by my faith, certainly not by man's law.

I beg to differ, BillyB. Belief in God is not a pre-requisite for having a moral code, although I shall readily admit that it may provide a very strong stimulus for having and keeping it.

If you spend some time in studying religions comparatively, you'll discover that most of them include practically the same, universal precepts, which means that these pre-dated the religions we know today. Whence did they came ? Early men discovered over the years that if they refrained from killing other members of their own clan, humping their mothers and sisters, stealing their neighbour's wife, kicking their elders, etc. etc., they would thrive better than other clans who did not follow the same practices, and consequently disappeared.

Therefore I believe that a basic, universal moral code has been hard-wired into the human species by some 100,000 years of successful evolution, although you'll often find some short-circuited, malfunctioning units around (also among believers in God, of course ).

[SANDRO43]

What I don't understand is why they call it adultery when there is nothing "adult" about this type of behavior. 

Because kids don't much practice it ?

[KenC]

"So committing adultery can be written off as just being human? "
Yes is my answer.  It is human nature at it's best/worst if you consider the inborn "natural" desire to propagate.

jb,
I knew I was over simplifying the BJ thing to make my point and was incorrect about the actual reasons Sick Willie almost got the boot.  But the BJ's were the root of his troubles there.  The fact that the American public was more outraged at his actions in getting the BJ's than his lying to cover them up, proves my point.

I think Russians tend to look at sex in a much more physical way and that Americans look at sex more in an emotional way.  Maybe this is why having sex with someone outside the marriage is less earth shaking to a Russian.

Gator,
Yes. it is Puritanical.  It has to do with the moralistic undertones of what you wrote.  The whole "Scarlet Letter" thingy.  We Americans believe that adultery is morally wrong where other do not.  It may all be in the severity of the wrong doing too.  It just isn't such a big deal in Russia.
KenC

[Mir]

I beg to differ, BillyB. Belief in God is not a pre-requisite for having a moral code, although I shall readily admit that it may provide a very strong stimulus for having and keeping it..........

I agree 100%

[Mir]

Interestingly as far as I know in both old and new testament the term adultery is used to describe sexual intercourse between a married man and a married woman who is not his wife (or a married woman and a married man who is not her husband). So does that mean it is not adultery if a married man has sex with an unmarried woman and vice versa? Or if the man has sex with another man and vice versa?

[BillyB]

I beg to differ, BillyB. Belief in God is not a pre-requisite for having a moral code, although I shall readily admit that it may provide a very strong stimulus for having and keeping it.

 By not believing in God, having a moral code is optional. That is not a good thing IMO.

If you spend some time in studying religions comparatively, you'll discover that most of them include practically the same, universal precepts, which means that these pre-dated the religions we know today. Whence did they came ? Early men discovered over the years that if they refrained from killing other members of their own clan, humping their mothers and sisters, stealing their neighbour's wife, kicking their elders, etc. etc., they would thrive better than other clans who did not follow the same practices, and consequently disappeared.

New male lions who win the right to mate routinely kill off the children of the previous Alpha male and mate with all the females and they still have survived over time. Eliminating murder and incest and promoting monogamy isn't necessary for the survival of lions and may actually hurt it's survival. Alpha male Elephants get to mate with all the ladies in the clan too.

Therefore I believe that a basic, universal moral code has been hard-wired into the human species by some 100,000 years of successful evolution, although you'll often find some short-circuited, malfunctioning units around (also among believers in God, of course ).

 I don't believed humans are hard wired for anything. Moral codes are optional to each individual. IMO, the biggest difference between humans and animals is that we have a conscience and we are freely able to do as we wish. We can save a life today and then tomorrow commit murder, and the next day rescue a woman from being raped and then tomorrow rape, and the next day walk an elderly pedestrian across the street and tomorrow run a pedestrian over. Of course in the modern age we have a need for man made laws and punishment to prevent the bad behavior of our species. Animals don't have any use for laws because they are the ones hard wired to perform a consistant way while we are free and the only restrictions are the ones we as an individual and society place upon ourselves.

Back on topic. I'm sure some people remember Stirlitz, a Ukrainian interpreter and guide who has received high praise by most who used his services. I remember when he announced he got married and I remember he was well respected that they made him a moderator on another forum. What some of you may not know is a few months ago a poster on another forum used his services and wrote about it in a thread there. He said at the apartment, Stirlitz put his arm around the girl he's dating. When she went to the bathroom, Stirlitz went through her cell phone and programed his phone number in there. Although this is not actual cheating, it is one example on how openly a married FSU man can hit on another woman. Stirlitz has not been seen on the forums, that I know of, since that thread came out. The FSU as a whole clearly has problems pertaining to adultery and while I won't say they are morally bankrupt, there is room for improvement. What do you say Mir and Sandro? Could they use a boost from a higher authority? After all it may provide a very strong stimulus for having and keeping moral code to which you both agreed on.

[Mir]

New male lions who win the right to mate routinely kill off the children of the previous Alpha male and mate with all the females and they still have survived over time. Eliminating murder and incest and promoting monogamy isn't necessary for the survival of lions and may actually hurt it's survival. Alpha male Elephants get to mate with all the ladies in the clan too.

Well the lions and elephants are facing extinction ain't they?

Seriously moral codes, laws etc are followed by non believers as well as believers in equal numbers. Perhaps some have an inbuilt limit on the bad they can do or are just to scared to getting caught to do wrong.
If belief in god was an effective deterrent to prevent man doing evil then we would not have had inquisition or al-qaida.Evil men will do evil things, if they are believers they will just use the 'Belief' to justify their deeds.

[Blues Fairy]

Interestingly as far as I know in both old and new testament the term adultery is used to describe sexual intercourse between a married man and a married woman who is not his wife (or a married woman and a married man who is not her husband). So does that mean it is not adultery if a married man has sex with an unmarried woman and vice versa? Or if the man has sex with another man and vice versa?

You are exactly right.

According to the Biblical definition, if a married man sleeps with an unmarried woman, this is not considered a crime at all. The married man who has extramarital affairs with unmarried women is not an adulterer and the unmarried women involved with him are not adulteresses. The crime of adultery is committed only when a man, whether married or single, sleeps with a married woman.   Why the dual moral standard? Because the wife was considered to be the husband's possession and adultery constituted a violation of the husband's exclusive right to her; the wife as the husband's possession had no such right to him.  

In modern society, nobody is anyone's possession hence no such severe definitions.  

[Jet]

I'm sorry to say, both comments are wrong.   Bill Clinton was *almost* impeached for knowingly making a false statement, (actually several), before congress while under oath.  That he got some BJs from the Lewinsky girl in the Oval Office cloak room was never the issue, it was the lie while under oath that did him in.  I'm always amazed at how few Americans understood this not too subtle fact.   Fortunately for him there were enough other liars in congress to prevent him from being drummed out of office.

"Twas a bad and dark day for America when he was allowed to walk.  However, since it takes a 2/3's majority in the Senate to pass a Bill of Impeachment, he was never in any danger of being impeached, and he knew it.  The left wing loonies would have never let that happen to their darling Bill.

Err umm...
Actually, as long as we're splitting hairs on "not too subtle facts", there is no *almost* about it. Clinton was impeached. Impeachment is the act of bringing up formal charges. The House did bring those charges in 1998, but in the Senate trial, they failed to get a conviction, and slick Willie was acquitted in '99. 

[Mir]

What do you say Mir and Sandro? Could they use a boost from a higher authority? After all it may provide a very strong stimulus for having and keeping moral code to which you both agreed on.

Billy

Iran is ruled by fanatic clerics. Moral codes are strict and
enforced by the religious police. At times a boy and girl can

get into trouble by just talking to each other.
Adultery is punishable by death and that is by stoning.
Do you think the moral character of Iranians is better then others?
No it is not. The more strict societies are with their moral codes the more they hide their moral ills, If Russians are more open about adultery then Americans then it does not mean that adultery is more prevalent in Russia then in the US. Only that because of the lesser stigma attached to it the Russians admit to it more easily then the Americans

[Gator]

KenC

Gator,
Yes. it is Puritanical.  It has to do with the moralistic undertones of what you wrote.

Believe me, Puritans would never allow me to enter the doors of their church.

I am just saying that I find it wrong for me.  What others do is their personal choice.

We each have our own values, and what matters most is that we find someone who subscribes to the same.  If both people are happy with messing around on each other, then so be it. However, unless they are swingers, I very much doubt that the woman returns home and tells her husband how the other man was hung like a horse and found her G-spot.  I think most people are discrete about their extramarital affairs because it would pain the other.  Get my point?

[jb]

Before anyone gets the idea that the average RW won't get PO'ed if you cheat on her, (since they are supposed to be so liberal, and all), I know Etna would have my guts for garters if I strayed from the marriage bed.  We had that long and serious talk before we got married, extramarital affairs were grounds for immediate divorce.  Neither of us need that kind of grief and hurt in our lives.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Before anyone gets the idea that the average RW won't get PO'ed if you cheat on her, (since they are supposed to be so liberal, and all), I know Etna would have my guts for garters if I strayed from the marriage bed.  We had that long and serious talk before we got married, extramarital affairs were grounds for immediate divorce.  Neither of us need that kind of grief and hurt in our lives.

Amen to that jb.  I would wake up with my testicles in a jar next to my bed.  I know Sveta would leave me in a heartbeat as I would if either cheated.  We both know we have way too much to lose.

We know a few unhappily married women here.  The main reason they stay with their husbands is because of financial security.  All of the cases had children involved.  I am speaking of women in Ukraine which is why I think that financial stability is part of the reason for some allowing it to happen.


I just keep hearing the phrase used, "It's Ukraine, what can you do."


Thomas

[Misha]

You are exactly right.

According to the Biblical definition, if a married man sleeps with an unmarried woman, this is not considered a crime at all. The married man who has extramarital affairs with unmarried women is not an adulterer and the unmarried women involved with him are not adulteresses. The crime of adultery is committed only when a man, whether married or single, sleeps with a married woman.   Why the dual moral standard? Because the wife was considered to be the husband's possession and adultery constituted a violation of the husband's exclusive right to her; the wife as the husband's possession had no such right to him. 

In modern society, nobody is anyone's possession hence no such severe definitions. 

Yes, the unmarried women sleeping with with married men are not adulteresses, but she risked being stoned to death for her behavior. Let's not forget that a woman had to be a virgin when she married. According to Deuteronomy (22:20-21): "I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid....if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." Even a virgin who was unmarried and raped had to marry her rapist to keep her honor according to the Deuteronomy.

From the point of view of the woman then, she had to remain a virgin until she married (or risk being killed) and once married she could not stray because she also risked being killed for adultery.

Yes, it was not "adultery" if the man had sex with an unmarried woman, but he could not have sex with honorable unmarried women as he would have to then marry them. Powerful men could have a number of wives in the Old Testament as well as concubines (usually women taken in warfare from the enemy). Men without the means or resources could avail themselves to prostitutes.

To summarize, yes "adultery" was much more limited, but the sexuality of women was tightly controlled. Most women would be either unmarried virgins who would usually be married at a young age or married women that could not have sex with men other than their husbands. 

[BillyB]

Iran is ruled by fanatic clerics. Moral codes are strict and
enforced by the religious police. At times a boy and girl can

get into trouble by just talking to each other.
Adultery is punishable by death and that is by stoning.
Do you think the moral character of Iranians is better then others?
No it is not.

Of course I don't believe moral codes, Iranian style, is better than others. Supposedly, if you are a believer, God's moral codes are perfect. How man interpret and execute those moral codes are flawed. Iranian leadership is flawed, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, and the Christian leadership during the Inquisition were all flawed too but I don't use those guys as the measuring stick for how the general population behaved at the time although their leadership, propaganda, and the way the country is operated can affect how the population behaves to a certain extent. As far as the FSU goes, I don't believe they have the moral codes that benefit family life. Adultery is normal to much of the general population, Abortion is high, divorce is high and most children grow up without a good male role model since single/divorced women with children have a difficult time to remarry. To a large portion of the population in the FSU, there seems to be a lack of values towards family, marriage, and being responsible for ones actions by giving birth to their unborn child. In some ways I see similar comparisons between the FSU male to black males in America who seem to chase after women more and abandon wife and kids more on average than other ethnic groups.

Mir, can administering more of man's moral codes improve the circumstances in the FSU anymore than it is now? Or is the FSU's moral codes among the average person currently acceptable to you and need no improvement?

[ScottinCrimea]

In some ways I see similar comparisons between the FSU male to black males in America who seem to chase after women more and abandon wife and kids more on average than other ethnic groups.

I don't see RM actually abandoning their family.  In every case that I can think of, it was the woman who divorced her husband, not the other way around.  I also see where if a young RM gets his girlfriend pregnant, he is more likely to marry her than what I am seeing in young US males.

I also believe that RW are becoming much less tolerant of this type of behavior as their economic position improves.  If he isn't living up to their expectations and they don't need him for financial support, why keep him around?  There is also less an issue of staying together "for the sake of the children".  If they have children it is rarely more than two and they have a close extended family to help in raising the kids.

[SANDRO43]

To a large portion of the population in the FSU, there seems to be a lack of values towards family, marriage...

Which seems to be rather at odds with statements like "I wish a strong family" that one reads so often in FSUW agency profiles (of divorcees as well) .

[KenC]

I don't see RM actually abandoning their family.  In every case that I can think of, it was the woman who divorced her husband, not the other way around.  I also see where if a young RM gets his girlfriend pregnant, he is more likely to marry her than what I am seeing in young US males.

I also believe that RW are becoming much less tolerant of this type of behavior as their economic position improves.  If he isn't living up to their expectations and they don't need him for financial support, why keep him around?  There is also less an issue of staying together "for the sake of the children".  If they have children it is rarely more than two and they have a close extended family to help in raising the kids.

Scott,
Just trying to make sure I understand what you said here.  Do you mean to say that divorced RM take care of their responsibilities to their children after divorce?  This is contrary to what I have been led to believe.
KenC

[BillyB]

I don't see RM actually abandoning their family.  In every case that I can think of, it was the woman who divorced her husband, not the other way around. 

By abandoning family, I didn't mean divorce happens by the RM but his spending time with a mistress or going out drinking instead of taking care of business at home. By those actions from RM, of course RW will be overwhelmingly divorcing their husband. Besides it's counter produtive for a RM to divorce his wife and reduce the amount of women in his harem.

[jb]

In some ways I see similar comparisons between the FSU male to black males in America who seem to chase after women more and abandon wife and kids more on average than other ethnic groups.

I can't imagine a possibly worst case comparison.

Scott,

I hope your recent observations are indicative of a growing trend, however, my personal observations in the past have been pretty much the opposite.  My own two step sons were raised almost entirely by their single mom, working two jobs, and their babushka.  Father showed up late for birthdays with little more in his pockets than ice cream money.   My wife never received regular child support for food, clothes, education, housing, etc.   He was, for all intents and purposes, a bum.

I hope that's beginning to turn around.

[Mir]

Mir, can administering more of man's moral codes improve the circumstances in the FSU anymore than it is now? Or is the FSU's moral codes among the average person currently acceptable to you and need no improvement?

I don't feel myself to be competent enough to pass judgement concerning the morals of FSU men/women. However if an improvement is needed then it will not come by more strict enforcement of man's/god's moral codes by men, but from withing the FSU society.

I also find it amusing that one big reason given for WM seeking FSU brides is that the women there are more of home makers then the one's in the West, so it that is not true (and I mean for the majority and not the exceptions) then the only reason to look for a wife there is cause one can get younger and prettier women there due to economic reasons, sounds like buying a wife.

[ScottinCrimea]

KenC, I wasn't referring at all to the behavior of RM after divorce, only in the context of the actual marriage.  They don't typically initiate the divorce and continue to contribute at least financially as long as the marriage lasts.  We can talk about RM who abandon their family in the sense that they aren't there physically or emotionally as much as they should, but then we can also talk about AM (and AW) who also fit into that category even if the reasons might be different.

I agree there is a real problem with family support by RM after divorce.  The laws are very weak and I think most don't step up and do the right thing though I have seen some who have so it's not universal.  I really don't know enough about their general cultural attitudes about the meaning of divorce and life after divorce for RM to make any judgements on this.  I can only compare it to attitudes in the US where many men do all they can to avoid child support after a divorce and many go above what the law requires of them.  Maybe the male attitude is universal and it's just the stricter laws in the US that make the difference.

[BillyB]

Which seems to be rather at odds with statements like "I wish a strong family" that one reads so often in FSUW agency profiles (of divorcees as well) .

Don't believe everything you read! Lots of woman want a strong family as long as their husband is a hunk, drives a Mercedes, and has a large bank account.

I don't know about the FSU but in America, 50% of marriages end in divorce, if a person in a second marriage was divorced once, there is a 70% chance their second marriage will end in divorce. If a person in a third marriage was previously divorce twice, there is a 90% chance the third marriage will end. As ugly as it may sound since a lot of men and women fall into the category of being divorced, people who were divorced previously may have serious issues within themself instead of their former spouse/s.

jb, why do you feel the comparison of the black man is not a good comparison of FSU men? The example of your step son's father sounds just like what goes on in the black community. Both black and FSU women have complain the men in their society need to improve.

Mir, some men search in the FSU because women there have traditional values, at least that is what they read at some agency. I find that amusing too. There are good women in Western nations and good women tend to stay married and unavailable in the later years of men's lives such as most of us divorcees. Maybe good women in the FSU are available at a higher percentage than here? Who knows. But I do know if I visit an American dating site and an FSU dating site, there is a BIG difference on quality of women when judging the ladies physically. I can afford to travel and I'm not interested in BBW(big beautiful women) so that is why I looked elsewhere. I know there are high quality women in the FSU but one should not be blind to the amount of trailer trash that exist there either.

[ScottinCrimea]

Don't believe everything you read! Lots of woman want a strong family as long as their husband is a hunk, drives a Mercedes, and has a large bank account.

It may just be that the RM's interpretation of "strong family" is quite a bit different that that of the RW.  Perhaps this is one reason that RW look to the west is because there are more men there who share their concept of what is a strong family and what behavior is expected within this family.

[KenC]

Scott,
I really am not trying to bust your chops here but I am having a difficult time following your logic or meaning.

KenC, I wasn't referring at all to the behavior of RM after divorce, only in the context of the actual marriage.  They don't typically initiate the divorce and continue to contribute at least financially as long as the marriage lasts.  We can talk about RM who abandon their family in the sense that they aren't there physically or emotionally as much as they should, but then we can also talk about AM (and AW) who also fit into that category even if the reasons might be different.

Are you putting AM on par with RM in walking away from their children in divorce?  If so, I have to strongly disagree.  If anything the percentages are flip flopped.  (A small percentage of AM walk and a small percentage of RM do not

I agree there is a real problem with family support by RM after divorce.  The laws are very weak and I think most don't step up and do the right thing though I have seen some who have so it's not universal.  I really don't know enough about their general cultural attitudes about the meaning of divorce and life after divorce for RM to make any judgements on this. I can only compare it to attitudes in the US where many men do all they can to avoid child support after a divorce and many go above what the law requires of them.  

I am confused by the last sentence.  AM try to avoid child support, but many go above and beyond?  That sounds contradictory to me.
KenC