So confused,, Ok experienced one's, I need advice!

[Scuba Don]

Great advice above from AJ and IO.  Now its three strikes in a row for you ie. NEXT!   By the way run, don't walk.

i agree. Move on bear. 

[OhioGuyRob]

Misha, you've had many posts here speaking about the abuse these RW go through and I have no doubt that you're totally against abuse and sympathetic to all women who have a story to tell. Unfortunately the fact men may be aggressive does not significantly factor against for many women when they choose their mate. Many women are attracted to bad tough boys and based on that, it encourages the bad boy behavior among men to attract those women.  Many women don't think the aggresive behavior of these men will be applied to them when they marry those bad boys. Mnay are wrong.

Your lady has given 5 years of her life to her abusive ex husband but now she finds a nice guy, you, yet she won't give you more than 11 weeks. Actually 9 weeks since she went silent on you for 2. What a woman wants is a real man and although she may have enjoyed all those love songs and poems you sent and sang for her, she may have thought you to be on the immature side and infatuated with her which is a turn off for many women. Who knows? What I do know if you always reassure a RW that you love her, you are cheapening the words. They want to see action not words. Action as not in giving presents and gifts but action as in taking care of business at work and at home and being responsible.

Good luck on the next one Misha.

Actually there are some HUGE keys that non abusive men should take from the abusive relationship.   Why is it that so many women are attracted to the "bad boy?"  Is it that they really like being abused?

No. So that being true what is it?   Ahh here is the key that EVERY decent man should take and LIVE BY.   Women are attracted to the fact that the "tough guy" the "bad boy" initially looks like a self assertive, emotionally strong MAN.  We all as human beings have a strong attraction to that which we can not quite attain.  He doesn't fawn over her like every other man she meets on any give day she is out in public.  He doesn't chase after her like a lost puppy dog...

The bad boy tells her what they are going to do and where they are going to go.  The bad boy often ignores her and is out with the boys.  The bad boy tells her what to where, where to sit and what to do.  In short the bad boy is in TOTAL control of her from where they go, what they do, when he sees her and sadly all too often, if he beats her.

Those are perverted extremes of what you the nice guy should take and MODIFY.


I forget where I first heard this but its true none the less.  Every woman wants Prince Charming to ride up and take the damsel in distress off to his castle to live happily ever after.   What that really means is that every woman wants to live an adventure with her man that is BIGGER THAN HERSELF.   The big mistake many/most American men make is worshiping his GF/Wife.

Be a real man and if you do not know what that means (FROM HER PERSPECTIVE) then learn it and live it.

[Simoni]

So I guess my "click" wasn't a big enough fire works for her.   

I didn't try to sweep her off her feet on purpose, no $200 nights out at expensive restaurants, or 2 dozen roses delivered to the table, no expensive wine. I kept everything simple and low key so we get to know each other because she asked me to. With my ex gf I was spending at least $250  each week on dates, and it back fired on me.  Sometimes one partner having money and the other not having much,  builds a wall between people.  I think that is what happend here in both cases.  I feel she is being honest, but im trying to read between the lines.

Any suggestions?  Anyone?

Misha

There is no turning back, Michael.  Once a russian woman dumps you, it's history.  You can't go back to her even if she temporarily changes here mind.  Why?  Because she would never respect you as a man, and that is essential in a RW/AM marriage.

Best to find someone else, and I recommend you stop trying to recycle and get to the motherland, and get a girl who you will be the first American to.

[Mishenka]

OhioGuyRob,

I'm not sure you read my first post completely.  It simply said she had no longer felt any chemistry between us.  it was there in the beginning, but not there today. She spent 20 minutes telling me how good I was for her, that I did everything right etc. This was about her and not me.  So I will leave it at that and accept her word,  "no longer felt chemistry" means just that.  Just because I possess a charismatic personality in general does not always me there is lovers chemistry between two people.  Case in point, in San Diego I see a hundred beauties a day but feel no chemistry between them.  Attraction is not the same as chemistry.  She is attracted to me,  very affectionate but the FIREWORKS are just not there. I  understand.  I can not manufacture feelings for someone, they just happen and for her it didn't happen with me.

Some people take a step back from the relationship to see if feeling will last.  In this case absents made my heart grow fonder,  in her case the sparks didn't catch fire...... in my heart they did catch fire but  like I said before, prolonged absents also causes people to drift apart.

thanks,
Misha

[Mir]

Still, I just want to understand these women and their culture. I'm learning fast.

I understand you have been trying to do this since the 90s. Maybe 10-15 years now. Perhaps you are trying to understand far too much. While there are differences, underneath all that men are men and women are women, regardless of where they live and what language they speak.

[groovlstk]

I just want to understand Russian Women and their culture.

This is an impossibility, but if you truly want to learn more don't think you can do it through meeting Russian expats in the US. You need to see women in the environment that shaped them and experience a small piece of it for yourself, and from there you'll begin to understand.

  I see all of this as insecurity on her part, coming from past experiences and the result is fear. Just like most of us.   
Misha

Maybe, but you should probably read this thread in its entirety to understand what some women are capable of:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=5972.0

There are plenty of bad apples among FSU women, finding a truly good one is no easier than finding a truly good woman here.

[Misha]

OhioGuyRob,

I'm not sure you read my first post completely.  It simply said she had no longer felt any chemistry between us.  it was there in the beginning, but not there today. She spent 20 minutes telling me how good I was for her, that I did everything right etc. This was about her and not me.  So I will leave it at that and accept her word,  "no longer felt chemistry" means just that.  Just because I possess a charismatic personality in general does not always me there is lovers chemistry between two people.  Case in point, in San Diego I see a hundred beauties a day but feel no chemistry between them.  Attraction is not the same as chemistry.  She is attracted to me,  very affectionate but the FIREWORKS are just not there. I  understand.  I can not manufacture feelings for someone, they just happen and for her it didn't happen with me.

Chemistry goes away. It might take a year, it might take 3, but the giddy rush you feel in any relationship goes away. The question is what remains afterwards. A solid marriage based on love, trust, respect or an empty feeling and the need to find the next "fix." Clearly she values chemistry. This is her choice and should be respected. But, you can move on, and that can be your choice.

[Mishenka]

I can understand easily when two people meet up and they don't feel any spark between them on the first date,  to say so and don't have a second date.   Fine I get that.  no problem it happens often.

What I don't get is spending 2- 3 months or 4 months or even 8 months and saying, its over, then giving the "you are such a nice guy speech" and how wonderful and perfect you are but,,, there is no longer chemistry so I'm out.  Is it the times we live in?  When I got married there was a thing called love,  which led to commitment,   a place of feeling like I will not have to concern myself with being single again.  Now, years later marriage has turned into something as light as booking a hotel room for a week and when you're tired of the relationship, just feel free to check out~  Once people are burned in relationships I don't think they are as capable of loving as deeply in the next relationship for a long, long time until trust is built again.  I think its time to take a rest.  I will be going to Moscow soon,, maybe something good will happen this winter. :-) Lucky for me my looks have not changes in 10 years so they will recognise me just like the day I left 8 years ago. 

Misha

[timothe]

A wise old man once told me...regarding women and their love for men.

Once the light goes out, it doesn't come back on again.

[Mishenka]

Timothe, that works on some cases..  however,   my ex wife of 6 years keeps calling and wanting to reconcile our marriage,  saying she loves me,wants me to take her back,  imagine that.  But,, I have no interest or "'chemistry"  with her. 

I found out from Tatiana, that while we were out to dinner one night, as she came out of the ladies room,  she over heard a phone call when  my ex had called me,  and this is a huge reason that she changed her mind.

Lesson learned : SHUT OFF YOUR CELL PHONE WHEN ON DATES!!!  It blew her mind when she hears the words from my Ex " I love you" as I hung up the phone.

Talk about being sick to my stomach!~  This is what killed the chemistry 

now reversing the situation,, I think it would have killed any feelings I had for her as well. 

Her fears are warranted.

[Misha]

Lesson learned : SHUT OFF YOUR CELL PHONE WHEN ON DATES!!!  It blew her mind when she hears the words from my Ex " I love you" as I hung up the phone.

Talk about being sick to my stomach!~  This is what killed the chemistry 

now reversing the situation, I think it would have killed any feelings I had for her as well. 

Her fears are warranted.

I don't know, there is something called communication. You did not say that you loved your ex and you can't control what an ex says. Turning off a cell while in a restaurant, that is something everybody should do.

[Mishenka]

Timing is everything,, this was one of those examples of when NOT to take a call.  This was the only time I can remember that I left my cell phone on. I always make it a priority to turn it off.  The date went well once I explained. Clearly she never fogot about it.

 

 ???

[Muj]

Mishenka,

As the ex constantly calls, T would have heard eventually.

[Mir]

Lesson learned : SHUT OFF YOUR CELL PHONE WHEN ON DATES!!!  It blew her mind when she hears the words from my Ex " I love you" as I hung up the phone

Or at least don't talk to another woman using the speaker phone

[Mishenka]

I was shocked to hear those words myself.  She only started saying this in the last month.  I need to find the right words to say to discourage this without doing too much damage,.,  My daughters are so over protective of both parents. I need to be very diplomatic.  One would think that telling her there is no hope for reconcilliation she would give up.   

misha

[Gator]

Mishenka,

You shot yourself in the foot.  A woman, whether AW or RW, really appreciates being adored, and adoration does not include having "touchy feely" talks with women from your past. 

You said it yourself - you would not like it if the situation were reversed.  And I imagine that there was much more than one overheard phone call.  You probably talked frequently to Tatiana about your ex-.

It is best never to mention past women.  Past is past.  Bringing their names up does no good.   At best, it proves to the woman sitting in front of you that she is not the center of your universe.  Saying something bad about past women is also not good.

I do not know why, but Americans seem preoccupied with past relationships.  When dating AW, I disliked how many would use me as a therapist about their past men, particularly recent divorcees.  Perhaps they were testing me to see if I had a sensitive side, yet it did nothing for me. 

If one enters a serious relationship, one needs to discuss the other's past to enable a deeper understanding, especially how the past may influence their current behavior.  But that is done once and then never discussed again.  Certainly it is not dredged up and used in arguments.

Mishenka, there will be another woman.  Do not repeat your past mistakes.   Focus completely and totally on her.

[Mishenka]

Hi Gator,  Yes I agree 100%  with you,  this is why I never spoke to Tanya about any Ex gf or wife until this call and then that was the end of it. The explanation was very brief.  I could have just as easily said, this was one of my daughters calling.  We promised to always be honest above all things.  Tatiana speaks of her ex,  I don't mind when she does.  She is only a year out of divorce and memories are still tender. Tanya knows well that I adored her, I took time to make sure I said and did all the right things to make her feel loved.  This was never a problem.  Every woman loves it when her man opens her car door in public, or gives her flowers in front of other people.  she was affectionate in public,  I never refused taking her hand or a hug in public. The only thing she didn't like was kissing in front of people.  This made her uncomfortable. 

As we walked in Down town La Jolla after dinning one night, a car came very close to hitting us,  I quickly slammed my fist on the side of the car door and yelled at the driver as I moved her out of the way to safety and she was so impressed how I acted so quickly to protect her.   She made a comment to her friends later.  I love how you protect me.  A women loves to be adored, respected, protected and loved in public. Her telling me I do all the right things, is easy to accept,  the chemistry part is easy to  understand, because I feel the exact same way with my wife.   The hard part is accepting it when I know we had those sparks,, my question to her was, OK, if they were there in the first 2 months, where did they vanish to?  Suddenly they are gone? Poof!

One thing I want everyone to know is I love this girl, and I do not fault her for anything.  She has done nothing wrong. She has been honest and shared that she doesn't feel the same about me as she did in the beginning.  The only thing that frustrates me is how much time it took her to call me and confess this loss of chemistry and not wanting to be lovers.  I understand she doesn't want to give up a beautiful friendship. After all, we started as friends with no expectations. I should have left it at that, but she kept writing me explicit emails of sexual fantasies she was having with me and it made me think she was falling in love.  Even with an army guarding my heart, I let go and fell for her.  So I am sure the sparks were there or she would not have used those words to describe how she feels.  It took her hours to write all these love letters. To use a dictionary and translate to me while in her English class.  One thing I learned about Russian girls, is that they can be very affectionate without being in love.  She told me on the phone, she still want to hold hands and be affectionate even as friends. I guess I will find out later on if this is true. I see no reason to give up a good friendship either.  I will date other people,,  Natasha has already called me, a girl I had dated twice before Tanya.  I don't feel much chemistry with Natasha, but she is the easiest Russian woman to get along with I have ever met.  She has been living in the USA for 17 years now.

[ScottinCrimea]

Sometimes a woman will meet another man and feel that initial surge of "chemistry".  When compared to the more stable but lower levels of excitement in her current relationship, she will question her attraction for her current lover and move to the new one.  The typical reaction, approach and explanation to her old lover is what I see she has been doing with you.  So the question is, "Is it possible she found someone else?"

[Misha]

The hard part is accepting it when I know we had those sparks,, my question to her was, OK, if they were there in the first 2 months, where did they vanish to?  Suddenly they are gone? Poof!

One thing I want everyone to know is I love this girl, and I do not fault her for anything.  She has done nothing wrong. She has been honest and shared that she doesn't feel the same about me as she did in the beginning.  The only thing that frustrates me is how much time it took her to call me and confess this loss of chemistry and not wanting to be lovers.  I understand she doesn't want to give up a beautiful friendship. After all, we started as friends with no expectations. I should have left it at that, but she kept writing me explicit emails of sexual fantasies she was having with me and it made me think she was falling in love.

I hate to play the Devil's Advocate, but it seems you still don't have enough distance to be to judge things. It it new, you are still sorting stuff out, and it will be interesting to hear from you a year from now to get an appraisal of what happened.

A few comments. You ask how the chemistry could have disappeared so quickly.Perhaps it was never there! Sex does not equal chemistry. It is possible to have sex without chemistry and sometimes sex without chemistry is better than no sex at all.

You write that she "made you think she was falling love." Maybe that was the goal. When a woman knows that a man has fallen in love with her, it is quite the ego rush. Some women like to have a man fall in love with them simply to prove to themselves that they are desirable. From what you write, I get the feeling that is what was happening: she is on the rebound, needs to feel that men want her, she makes you fall in love with her, and once her ego has been boosted, she moves on to greener paster in search of "chemistry" (read young hottie).

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that you are still tied to her emotionally and under those circumstances it is hard to think clearly and objectively.

[Mishenka]

Scott, thanks for your post,

According to Tatiana, I am the first man she has met since her divorce. I am also the first American man she has ever dated.  She tells me I'm very intense person.  I have a lot of charisma. She feels energy with me.  I think I came on to strong and scared her.  I could see her initial excitement for the first 6 - 8weeks. Actually until she called me this week, she kept saying everything was fine between us.  She has a lot of patience, I don't have nearly as much and as a business man I expect return phone calls a day or so after I make them, not having to wait 6 days.  Maybe I expect too much. I came to the conclusion that she sensed my feelings were deeper than hers and she could not reciprocate from her end so early in the relationship. She didn't feel the same as I do about her. I could tell she felt uneasy about it.  She said more than once, " I'm in no hurry"  and "We are in no hurry" She needed more time to build trust after her divorce. I fully understand her.
 
Tatiana is at a low point in her life right now and doesn't feel she has much to offer.  As stated in earlier posts, he ex left her with nothing, she went to work where she could live on site as a nurse assistant, then gets low pay because it includes room and board.  They don't make much anyway. At least its a job and her food and room is paid for.  She has some student loans for school, It will take 4 more years to complet her education to become an RN so she can finally have a good paying job and feel like she can contribute to the family. So with all this pressure on her,  it leaves her little space for feelings to develop. she keeps saysing she wants to be equal in this relationship. It bothers her that that I earn in one month what she earns in a year.  I made offers to pay for school, and have her live with me and pay nothing towards the living expenses so she doesn't have to work and can concentrate on her studies, and she rejected that.  She wants to do everything herself and pay her own bills. She did apply for some new jobs but they all want experience that she doesn't have so its very frustrating to her to be rejected.

She has no other man at this time. She still wants to see me and date,  only now as friends not lovers.  I believe her when she says she is alone and lonely. She wants the freedom to date other men, sure.  I will also take that freedom and date other women.  She continues to email me and talk,  so this is a sure sign to me that she is not angry, she is not hurt or sad, she is not with another guy. She  has not dumped me for another guy,, if she didn't want to see me, she would not write, or call. A women who ends it won't usually make contact again.   She invites me to hang out with her and Lena because she considers me her good close friend.   I think her idea of me dating her best friend Lena is also more as a friendship thing.  
cheers,

Misha

[Mishenka]

gabaub, Your post is right on,, thanks,

Sure  I will be emotionally tied to her  for a while, even in a friendship way. I'm happy she is honest with me.  She is the one that made a big deal about chemistry in the relationship when it started.  I am not mistaken with her letters or what she said and showed me face to face,  and it has nothing to do with sex,  it's her words, the way she looks at me and flirts, the way she holds me, holds my hand like she's making love to it.  I mean there are all kinds of things to judge this, the way she talks to her friends about me. What I see that happend is, the car was driving to fast and she put on the brakes.  Why else invite me to be with her, and her friends?  If its over its over, just end it.  She was totally elated that I wasn't angry with her. Now she is treating me like none of this happend and is in better contact with me than before.  It's like she is so relieved now and she is not avoiding me.

Bottom, line.  She is not ready to handle a serious relationship and just wants to be friends. Non threatening friends.

[Misha]

gabaub, Your post is right on,, thanks,

Sure  I will be emotionally tied to her  for a while, even in a friendship way. I'm happy she is honest with me.  She is the one that made a big deal about chemistry in the relationship when it started.  I am not mistaken with her letters or what she said and showed me face to face,  and it has nothing to do with sex,  it's her words, the way she looks at me and flirts, the way she holds me, holds my hand like she's making love to it.  I mean there are all kinds of things to judge this, the way she talks to her friends about me. What I see that happend is, the car was driving to fast and she put on the brakes.  Why else invite me to be with her, and her friends?  If its over its over, just end it.  She was totally elated that I wasn't angry with her. Now she is treating me like none of this happend and is in better contact with me than before.  It's like she is so relieved now and she is not avoiding me.

Bottom, line.  She is not ready to handle a serious relationship and just wants to be friends. Non threatening friends.

Keep in mind that men tend to be much more clueless when it comes to reading the signs that a woman is in love or interested or whatever. Simply put, they can fake it much better than we can and, if they do fake it, we are much less adept at noticing the subtle clues that would tell us that they are not sincere. Be careful not to read too much into what she said or how she justified her actions. As you like car metaphors, this is the one that I would use: she is shopping for a car and she decided to test drive a new model after having traded in her old model. She is willing to test drive a Buick but has her eye out for the Mercedes.

[BillyB]

The only thing that frustrates me is how much time it took her to call me and confess this loss of chemistry and not wanting to be lovers.  I understand she doesn't want to give up a beautiful friendship. After all, we started as friends with no expectations. I should have left it at that, but she kept writing me explicit emails of sexual fantasies she was having with me and it made me think she was falling in love. 

Misha, I suggest you save your time from thinking about all that went wrong. She likes you as a person otherwise she wouldn't recommend you to her friend. But I suspect you may not be what she wants in bed. If you lit her fire, I suspect she'd still be with you. Just as your ex doesn't light your fire, you don't to your RW. Just in case, for you and all men reading this, improve your performance and endurance when making love. After you're finished, look into your woman's eyes. Is she shocked that you finished so quick, is she dissapointed at your performance, or does she look at you with eyes of admiration? You know you've done really good if she's dug her fingernails into you leaving scratch marks all over the place.

[Simoni]

She invites me to hang out with her and Lena because she considers me her good close friend.   I think her idea of me dating her best friend Lena is also more as a friendship thing.  

My advice, Michael?  Have nothing further to do with this woman.

[Kuna]

My advice, Michael?  Have nothing further to do with this woman.

Simoni is right...  Break off contact with her... say your goodbyes IF YOU MUST...  but you need to move on to the future.


Misha,

I'm sitting here reading this thread and can see pain and upset emerging in the future for you.

You're writing so many positive and wonderful things about her...  you're romanticising something that is not there.  The thought of meeting or dating her friend is all wrong and any attempt to keep her as a friend is not there.

Can you imagine finding a future RW and THEN having to explain your relationship with this woman... your wife... and the other female friends who were ex'es...

You're putting the breakup down to the one phone call in the restaurant.  That isn't enough to make this woman let you go if that's all there was... You don't understand why it happened that's why you've come up with the best reason you can think of.

I believe you're a nice guy... a smart guy... a charismatic guy...  but I believe you're putting yourself is the wrong position to find a future wife.

You need to let go... say goodbye to that fling...  decide what you want for the future and go and get it.  This will include a bit of an inventory of all of your previous RW female friends/girlfriends etc...  No RW wants another hanging around because it will make her feel insecure.

All the best...  go get drunk and angry if you have to... BUT FOR YOUR OWN SAKE - LET GO!

Kuna