Possible Disaster- Please Help!

[ScottinCrimea]

Sounds like she laid low until the last minute thinking she had you hooked with no way out emotionally or otherwise and that you would just meekly go along with her plan.  I think you just may have what it takes to be successful in this.

[Turboguy]

There are a lot of good hotels available in Kiev for far less than what she quoted.   I have stayed in the RUS a bunch of times and it is central, modern and comforatble.   The rate there that I find on HotelsUkraine.com is $ 125.00 a night.   The Ukraina which is older but right at Independence square is $ 111.00 a night and there are lots of apartments that are cheap.

I assume you have never used an agency or you would not think of it as a waste of time.   I would go and have a good time and meet some great gals.   Why wait.  This is a great time to go.

[chade1968]

I would be surprised if there are many places in Sumy that cost 400$ per night. Just go to Keiv and see what happens. I stayed there in '06 and it has many wonderful women.. so does Sumy though. Tell her to get a train to Keiv and she can meet you there. She can get a ticket for <50$ if you still want to meet her but I would call it a loss and move on. Good luck.

[Christian]

According to Homer's Iliad (Book 2, "Catalogue of Ships"), it was Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and brother of Helen's cuckolded husband Menelaus, king of Sparta, who "launched" the 1,186 ships of his Achaean coalition.
Troy is not known to have ever possessed a fleet of such proportions. Get your historical analogies straight .

Yes, I should.  Facts are facts.

Christian

[Mir]

According to Homer's Iliad (Book 2, "Catalogue of Ships"), it was Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and brother of Helen's cuckolded husband Menelaus, king of Sparta, who "launched" the 1,186 ships of his Achaean coalition

I think there were 1,196 ships.
And when Troy fell and was sacked throughly Menelaus found Helen among the carnage. He wanted to kill the adulterous bitch but then his eyes fell on her naked breasts (was she sunning herself topless on the beach?) and he forgave her (She must have had a hell of a bob job while in Troy paid by Paris  ) and they lived happily ever after in Sparta.

[av8or1]

Like I said I feel like a damn fool, or as our Aussie friends would say, a "bloody idiot"
I emailed her I am not coming , and surprise! No Response. Whew! I have to look at the positives here:

Did you actually expect her to reply to you once you announced you weren't coming?  Hah!

Yeah I'd have to agree with I/O on this one, no doubt about it you were being played.  I can't begin to comprehend the excuses that people will make for the poor behavior of others, such as Serebro and another poster have done here on behalf of this woman.  Sleeping in different rooms when you were supposed to be staying in HER flat WITH HER?  Yeah right.  She deserves to be shot at dawn, period, end of story.  I have the same distaste for agencies who defend women who behave improperly (or men for that matter).  But don't get me started on that.  I'll never forget the woman I met in Almaty through OksanaLove (dishonest/scam agency!) who took me out for a $100 meal (via a restaurant that didn't put prices in the menu) and then tried to tell me that she wanted "our first meeting to be special."  Yeah right, BMS.  I complained to the agency, but they did nothing.  'Even defended her, making up crap excuses for her despicable behavior.  'Course I later found out why: because she was (and STILL IS 2+ YEARS LATER) and HUGE letter-writing revenue generator for them.

Anyway I just chalked it up to experience and learned then and there to know (or ask for) the pricing information anywhere I went BEFORE I used any services.  If the woman did anything other than help me with/tell me about the prices, I would bail right then and there.  'Happened a couple of times after that, but I was too quick on the draw and avoided a repeat.  BTW Ironcat, as others have mentioned you're only a fool if you fall for it, which you didn't, so stop beating yourself up.

But hell, all along, she told me were were staying at her flat, and these changes were only done YESTERDAY. My emotions are fried and frankly going right now with no battle plan other than to plop my ass in an agency would not be in my best interest so, Ill lay low and start some correspondence again and lets see what happens. Thanks again guys, you were great!

Look at it this way: you got off easy.  Be glad you said "bunk" and bailed.  I agree completely that now is not the time for you to attempt a trip.  Other posters are correct in their assertions regarding pricing and agency usage, but you're not right in the head.  You can't be, you're just too fresh off of this pile of dung.  Personally I wouldn't recommend going and using any agency if I hadn't at least explored their website and talked with them by phone prior to making my travel arrangements.  I know because I did that once and it was a waste of my time, money and energy. (guess it could work, but probably not likely)

So hey, good call on all counts: You bailed on the wench-from-hell, you realized that you're not ready for a trip yet and so you postponed your travels until later on.  Feel good, you have done well grasshopper.

Best,

Jerry

[I/O]

Like I said I feel like a damn fool, or as our Aussie friends would say, a "bloody idiot"

You might feel that way, but it is a "Real Fool" who makes the same mistake twice, so take the positives and move on.

My emotions are fried and frankly going right now with no battle plan other than to plop my ass in an agency would not be in my best interest so, Ill lay low and start some correspondence again and lets see what happens.

Some "Smarts" in this plan IMO. I do think you need to get your head together again before you involve a woman's emotions in your life. There is a "Fairness" factor in all of this and you need to be fair to both yourself and any potential partner.

FWIW, stick around here a bit and get as many "Smarts" from the old boys as you can. You will be all the better prepared in the future. They are a pretty generous bunch in their own way.

I/O

[ironcat]

Yeah, I'm pretty horrified that I ALMOST took the WOVO trip from Hades. Now, and this is a lesson for me and anyone else, I believe these are the areas where I erred and others ( especially me) could learn from

1) Thinking I could develop any sort of relationship with a woman who speaks not even conversational English. Next time, and yes, there will be one, I will try to correspond with one who can at least write a simple email.

2) Using an electronic translator- this is ok when you are just stating basic facts, but it is impossible to determine feelings, and especially underlying feelings. The rubbish that the translator puts out forces you to write in almost 3d grade-ish language to avoid any major gaffes. With the need for this simplified syntax, out go your emotions and any feelings.

3) Agreeing to stay in a flat of a stranger. Yes, I was ( almost) duped.What on earth was I thinking? What was she thinking? I could have been Jack the Ripper or some total slob and she wouldn't have known ( obviously as someone said earlier, her intent was to have damn good time at expensive resorts on my dime.

Those are the big three, I guess, plus the obvious about getting emotionally involved and so on. Thanks again guys, I needed you all and you guys came through


IRONCAT

[av8or1]

1) Thinking I could develop any sort of relationship with a woman who speaks not even conversational English. Next time, and yes, there will be one, I will try to correspond with one who can at least write a simple email.

Whoa there par'dner.  I've been with ya up until this point.  While I can understand your logic on this issue, be careful not to overreact.  After all, this woman's behavior had nothing to do with her lack of knowledge of the English language.  Don't punish some woman in the future for what the wench-from-Sumy (? it was Sumy, wasn't it?) did to you.

I've had wonderful relationships with women who couldn't speak much English when we first met.  She soon learned enough to hold a conversation with me and I know enough Russian to do the same.  I used my stateside interpreter Elena to fill in the holes if necessary when I was not in-country.  Worked fine.  Personally I don't put much value in emails with a RW.  No, for me phone calls and visitation are more revealing.  'Course the fact that the woman is willing to put in the effort to email you does have *some* value, but for me hearing and seeing her is more beneficial.  The lack thereof tells you something too.  For example, I was communicating with this one woman from Kiev in 2005.  Could hardly ever reach her by phone.  Didn't think much of it at first, everyone's busy, right?  Hah!  As if.  I wish it had been that simple but alas, no.  As it turned out she was not answering her phone 'cause she was out partying down in the discos with local guys or meeting with other foreign guys.

The lesson there was like anything else: don't ignore or make excuses for the obvious.  To the contrary, my current gal answers the phone like clockwork *everytime* I call and is always where she says she's gonna be.  Stark contrast, babe, stark.  Take heed...

2) Using an electronic translator- this is ok when you are just stating basic facts, but it is impossible to determine feelings, and especially underlying feelings. The rubbish that the translator puts out forces you to write in almost 3d grade-ish language to avoid any major gaffes. With the need for this simplified syntax, out go your emotions and any feelings.

Trying to communicate complex thoughts or feelings via email?  What are you nuts?  This is difficult enough to do with native English speaking people.  Use an interpreter over the phone, see above.

3) Agreeing to stay in a flat of a stranger. Yes, I was ( almost) duped.What on earth was I thinking? What was she thinking? I could have been Jack the Ripper or some total slob and she wouldn't have known ( obviously as someone said earlier, her intent was to have damn good time at expensive resorts on my dime.

As you appear to understand, she was NEVER gonna let you stay in her flat.  It was clearly a ploy from the beginning.  Don't try to think about it beyond that because reality doesn't go there.

Those are the big three, I guess, plus the obvious about getting emotionally involved and so on. Thanks again guys, I needed you all and you guys came through

Glad we could help, even more glad that you actually listened.  I completely concur with the no-emotion sentiment: don't get beyond friendship stuff until after you meet in person, PERIOD.

Take care,

Jerry

[Jazzyclassy]

Yeah, I'm pretty horrified that I ALMOST took the WOVO trip from Hades. Now, and this is a lesson for me and anyone else, I believe these are the areas where I erred and others ( especially me) could learn from

1) Thinking I could develop any sort of relationship with a woman who speaks not even conversational English. Next time, and yes, there will be one, I will try to correspond with one who can at least write a simple email.


IRONCAT

What I would like to remind you Ironcat is that maybe Only For you this WOVO trip was going to be a train wreck(Of course it was going to be as the lady does not know conversational english at all  and never met you before, how could you learn things about her personality without being able to talk??? I remember I was telling that there can be love between people when a girl does not know much of english , yeah it is possible but it is 1 in a million when the girl is really wanting to build up a relations and is sincere and honest and is not playing)
 but that does not mean for other people WOVO could be bad thing, you just meet wrong woman , Almost all of those men who come and seriously ask advice are meeting some strange women, who speak no english , moreover who start pulling your leg from the start, promising the acommodation and so on , why could not you understand her being that way a little bit early , I really can not understand how you could not see the obvious things about her?
I think you  should not come to Ukraine or Russia for sometime as you will be easily brainwashed and cheated  here , you are not prepared, if you wanna go just go as a tourist without any intention to meet anyone

[Misha]

but that does not mean for other people WOVO could be bad thing, you just meet wrong woman

Isn't that the problem? You can never really know that she is the right woman until you meet her and get to know her. What if he had shown up in Ukraine and she shared with him at that moment her expectations?

[Jazzyclassy]

Yes you can not know for sure, but at least you can somehow understand a person by letters and phone calls as well and by the communication all the way through , can not you understand whom the person will probably be like after corresponding and talking with him/her for about a year? of course you can

and I know all those stories about middle aged men who never been married and suddenly they feel life is going to be over soon and they start in extreme speed coming  to Russia , Ukraine and visiting the women they never talked to and never known who they might be in reality just cos they are rushing so much into something unknown though they see some other examples of those guys who are married already and they think ,oi if this guy made it I can easily make it in  just  one trip ,- No way fella
International relations according to my experience can not be built just in one minute in 2 months or something, that is my vision, though some people really do meet in like one trip and start preparing for marriage already , but will such marriage be stable and for good......?

[Turboguy]

1) Thinking I could develop any sort of relationship with a woman who speaks not even conversational English. Next time, and yes, there will be one, I will try to correspond with one who can at least write a simple email.

I was always a pretty strong believer in making trips to visit one woman or perhaps a few women spending 2-5 days with each if there were more than one.  I have probably wasted more time in finding the right woman than most anyone else and that belief had to be one of the key factors.  Yes, eventually it does work.  For some on trip one for me on trip 20 or so.  It was really Jack's tour that changed me into a believer in agency's and meeting many women.   In the course of my trips I have had many disasters that were pretty bad and visiting one is a plan that will give you disasters from time to time.

I do think lack of common language does add to the challenges of a relationship.   I do think talking with a machine is not all that bad though and my experiences have been that it is far more personal than using a terp.   If you are involved with a woman with no language skills she does need to be highly motivated to learn English (unless of course you are fluent in Russian)

[Simoni]

I was always a pretty strong believer in making trips to visit one woman or perhaps a few women spending 2-5 days with each if there were more than one.  I have probably wasted more time in finding the right woman than most anyone else and that belief had to be one of the key factors.  Yes, eventually it does work. 

I have no doubt you are correct, TG.  With enough WOVO trips, one can find a good match. 

I started out that way, and after three such trips, I changed my strategy to marginal contact before the meeting, and meeting more people.  That's what I recommend to guys now.

To me, it's more productive to interact with a girl first in her home town to see if you have spark together before making a solo trip together.  Meet more than one, and increase your odds.  And then, and only then, become a WOVO type of guy and make that trip with the girl you now know you have chemistry with.

Ironcat, that's what I recommend to you next time.  Otherwise, history could repeat itself.

[jj]

I personally think that meeting a lady to see if you "click" is the only way to start out. I tryed the letter  and e-mail route with a gal, and was all set to go to her home place, and she decided at the last minute that we should go to the "islands" somewhere.  She also need $ for internet. I told myself "nyet".  I just decided to go to a city and line up a gal there , but go mainly as a tourist and if something clicked then fine , and , if not, then have a good visit.  I met my sweety, and we grew closer , and now married.  I had no idea if it would work but it did in my case. It might take more searching for guys, but I recommend spending the money on trips where you can size up the ladies, and see if any chemistry exists, and have a back up plan . -jj

[BillyB]

the letter  and e-mail route with a gal, and was all set to go to her home place, and she decided at the last minute that we should go to the "islands" somewhere.  She also need $ for internet.

jj, the bigest problem why email and phone calls don't work with some guys is because they are always trying to please the woman and is not objective to anything she says especially if she's the only one the guy is corresponding with. Emails and phone calls are not just to catch a woman but to get rid of her if she's not compatible or is insincere. If she says she loves you before meeting you, then you need to think how can she come to that conclusion and what her motivation is for saying that.

jj, you and ironcat, had once associated with an insincere women. Those women who want you to spend bigs bucks on a vacation without asking you if you could afford it or not is not considerate. I can't almost guarantee I would have never agreed to meet those ladies. One reason is because I've given myself many choices of RW to choose from and most likely will not choose them  and two is that through correspondence I would have figured out how family oriented they are or if they're the party and living life large kind of women. If they never mention anything about family and inquire about my kids, then maybe they aren't family oriented. My fiancee always asked me about my kids and what I do for them because she's sizing me up to be the father of her future children. If she didn't like what I do with my kids, she would have nothing to do with me no matter how many exotic vacations I'd promise her.

You can tell a lot about a person through phone calls and writing. Here at the forum, you should have a good feeling of posters who are similar or different from you based on their writings. If you are clueless about the person behind the words, then yes, I agree, writing letters and phone calls will be a complete waste of your time.

Jazzy, I believe the men who do WOVO are not only doing harm to themselves, but to a lot of sincere women too. Insincere women, who's had more experience with men, know how to catch men and will say what it takes in correspondence and show more flesh to get the man to visit her over other RW. 20% of the women get 80% of the attention. Most sincere women who put modest photos in their profile and refuse to say words of love to men they never met will get passed over for hot women who sign their letters with kisses and hugs and send model quality photos.

There's no doubt about it, guys who do WOVO are most likely to pick an insincere woman or a sincere woman that doesn't no match well with him. One has better odds gambling in Las Vegas. It's better for both man and woman to communicate with as many people as possible to find the best possible match for themselves.

[acrzybear]

Jazzy, I believe the men who do WOVO are not only doing harm to themselves, but to a lot of sincere women too. Insincere women, who's had more experience with men, know how to catch men and will say what it takes in correspondence and show more flesh to get the man to visit her over other RW. 20% of the women get 80% of the attention. Most sincere women who put modest photos in their profile and refuse to say words of love to men they never met will get passed over for hot women who sign their letters with kisses and hugs and send model quality photos.

This is a good point Billy

I know when I look at pictures I prefer the ones where the lady doesn't look like she's modeling the latest Victoria's Secret catalog.  A woman can look sexier in blue jeans and a t-shirt then wearing next to nothing-you can tell a lot by a persons photograph as well.

  I do admit that some of the ladies posing seductively are nice to look at, but I would find it difficult to consider them as a potential partner.

[timothe]

jj, the bigest problem why email and phone calls don't work with some guys is because they are always trying to please the woman and is not objective to anything she says especially if she's the only one the guy is corresponding with. Emails and phone calls are not just to catch a woman but to get rid of her if she's not compatible or is insincere. If she says she loves you before meeting you, then you need to think how can she come to that conclusion and what her motivation is for saying that.

Another excellent point, Billy!!  If you do the WOVO method, it really should be a more modified WMVO.  Hopefully, the letter writing and initial phone calls will weed out the self-seekers.

On my first WMVO trip, I chose a woman in Novosibirsk over a woman in Omsk because the woman from Novosibirsk wrote about her love for me in her letters and I bought it while the woman from Omsk was more sensible and honest in her letters.  It was a real mistake on my part, although if I had met the Omsk woman, I may not have ever met my Olga.  But the first trip cost me $3000 and was more pain than gain for sure. 

[jj]

Billy- good point and I see your point of view.  I guess I was not real complete in my details , but I did write and call my Marina often before I met her. Of course I recommend this also, but my point was relating to Irons post about suprises before the planned trip.  I learned my lesson and did not want to have over -expectations about the next gal I wrote , called and went to see .(which fortunately turned out well.)  I still recommend writing and calling, but use caution so not to be disappointed if you don't "click".-jj

[Hub]

Iron, you are correct to not go with the advice of those who told you to just go ahead with your trip to get your feet wet.  Most do not have the time for such wasted exercises.

Read the remarks posted by Doctae in his recent thread.  WMVM is the only way to go for a first trip and further, you don't need to deal with agencies at all.  Look at the sites mentioned by Doctae.  Start corresponding with 100s of ladies.  It will soon narrow down to 20-30 and then down to 10 or so.  With the WMVM approach you completely avoid the situation you encountered with your first gal.  Or rather, if it comes up, you simply drop her, and you will still have many to meet on your trip.

[Jumper]

ironcat-
sorry to hear that...



but you diffinantly had some misgivings beforehand?
not long ago you were here asking if it was normal for a RW to be quite emotional before  meeting in emails (or phone) before meeting ..

i think the general answer to that post was -
 NO it wasnt common,,and to be alert.

you told us as a sales pro you were sure you could easily sniff out a scam or insincere person..
but it was obviuos you were a bit uncertain about her,  or wouldnt have even asked about it.

most of the thread even  warned not to build much expectation before actually meeting?

You received an easy lesson really..??

as some have said, dont overreact to it..
it doesnt appear you were blindsided nearly as much as presented here..

just learn to take things as they come, if it seems weird or odd , it probably is.
and either way , time will show.
no need to become paranoid or jaded.
maybe just less *confident*
 untill you've had a few visits there to know the situation a little better.   

dont mean to be a "we told you so post.."

apologies for it coming out that way..

noone can know really anything about a given situation you become involved in,
but you can be more alert to things like someone being overly gushy or *in love*
 before meeting.. its a common enough bait..

if it seems over the top, or not something women you know would say to a person they hadnt met..
then its likely something is up.

[Mir]

Sandro

Looks like you have quoted from Wikiepedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Ships#The_Catalogue
And yes the number of ships there total 1186.
However in my hard copy of Iliad which is a translation by Fagles and Samual Butler's translation available online http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.2.ii.html there are 1196 ships. Although one translation lists 10 more ships under Elephenor but balances the total by giving 10 less ships to the sons of Aesculapius keeping the total at 1196.
While Wikwiedia says that there is a passage in book 2 called 'Catalogue of Ships', book 2 is acutely named ;The great gathering of armies' and I could not find the word 'Catalogue' mentioned there.

[GregfromGa]

Ironcat
           It looks like I got in on this thread at the tail end. I've been very fortunate that I've never met a girl in Ukraine that tried to fleece me in that way. Both of the girls that I met and were serious about were very frugal. To the point where they were miserable when I took them out to eat. Both had much rather stayed home and cooked in the flat. Spending that kind of money a night would be absolutely insane in Sumy or Kiev. The whole thing about the resort just reeks of a scammer and pro-dater. You did yourself a favor by not going. Now you can read more and ask  a lot more questions and prepare yourself to go in the spring when the weather is more suitable for the mission. I know some of the guys really like the agencies.I on the other hand dont. I guess it depends. There are women at some mentioned agencies in Kiev that has been on that site for at least 5 years that I know about.I like the idea of see a pretty girl walking down the street or sitting at an outside cafe table and just walk up and say " hello,I'm kinda new around here.You're looking kinda lonely to and if you dont mind can I sit down here beside you, oh Yea alright. If nothing else I'll help keep the womanizers away from you.  You would have to be a fan of Dr Hook to appreciate my sense of humor about this,but you get my point. These woman aint aliens,they just act that way after you marry them.

[steve_parsons]

Ironcat I couldn't agree with GregFromGa any more!  Take the trip, book lodging yourself, and give the natural approach a shot.  If you've never tried it, you'll be amazed at how approachable and welcoming eastern girls are compared to americans.  I live here now (Slovakia) & am still amazed.  The problem with agencies (even the good ones), these scammers also scam them!  They infiltrate the process, and run their little game behind the agencies back, so it's not always appropriate to blame the manager, etc of the company.   it sounds like you're just beginning your quest.  I commend you for one important thing, though - you're going about it the right way by posting here.  Our biggest defense from scammers is communication with each other.  Continue updating us, I wish you all the best brother.


Steve