Older and Divorced and has kid(s) - Question for the Ladies

[dneid]

OK, this one is for Anatassia, Lily, Blue F, Jazzy, Serebero, et al,
So, I have been writing to a few ladies that are over 30 and divorced and have at least one kid.  Several of the guys here have told me that the prospects for such a woman in the Ukraine to find a husband there are slim to none.  Come on... this can't be true?  These are very attractive women who seem to be charming and intelligent.  What man would not desire such a woman even if she has a kid or two? :noidea:

OK, guys... please let the ladies respond first.   I am looking to better understand the cultural norms at play here. :brightidea:

Thanks in advance ladies...

Later,
Dale

[Lily]

I would say, the more advanced and developed is the personality of man, the less important is for him whether she has kids or not. The primitiver is the man, the more adamant is his desire to marry the childless woman only.

Such criteria like certain age, certain child status, certain housing status, etc come into play when things like love leave the scene. Men who live in conditions of hardship are often driven my reasons other than love. I don't think that we often see this point of view among well-to-do people...however, I have heard it more often among poorer people.

Some men marry to have their own children, in this case they may want to marry a woman without kids. But some still accept an existing kid. At the same time, there are men who would reject a woman with kid and accept a childless one even if they like the former woman more than the latter.

Also there may be men who 'd perceive her kid as a part of another man in his woman's life, and would be apparently not comfortable having another man's kid in his family. Probably a reflection of a patriarchal rivalry..

Last but not least, some people may just consider children as a burden...

Nevertheless, if a man is in love with the woman, he would not disqualify her because of kids.

[Serebro]

OK, this one is for Anatassia, Lily, Blue F, Jazzy, Serebero, et al,

I am Serebro!!!!!   It means Silver!!!!!!!

Several of the guys here have told me that the prospects for such a woman in the Ukraine to find a husband there are slim to none.  Come on... this can't be true?  These are very attractive women who seem to be charming and intelligent.  What man would not desire such a woman even if she has a kid or two?

Yes, that's true 100%.
I have already written about that in my thread about men wanting women with children
"would you marry a woman with a child"
The main reason of starting that thread was an argument with my colleagues at work,I told them that I was going to have a child.
They started laughing at me persuading me that I would not be able to find a man, I told them that there are many foreign men who are ready to marry a woman with a child, we  were close to fighting when I started that thread
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6212.0;viewResults

and the results of the poll gave me 500 roubles!

but you should have seen their faces!!!that was priceless!!!

well, on the whole I agree with Lily

if a man is in love with the woman, he would not disqualify her because of kids.

We have RM who are ready to marry RW with kids, too but there are not so many of them.
My crazy cousin married a drug addict RM a few years ago, had a child from him, he died,  2 years ago she got married again(another RM), now she is an example of a good mother and a tender lover...but her story is a big exception of a rule and I am sure that her behavior now is a result of her being grateful to him for that action..

[dneid]

Hey, Serebro,
Please forgive the typo.  I am sorry.  I truly try to get names straight as I have a long and convulted German last name so I am a little sensitive to the "please get the name straight" thing.  Allow me to fall on my sword or beat myself wit a bat

To both you and Lily, I appreciate your candor and honesty.  I am always fascinated with the culture and will turn to you ladies when I am unsure.

Thanks,
Dale

[I/O]

I would say, the more advanced and developed is the personality of man, the less important is for him whether she has kids or not. The primitiver is the man, the more adamant is his desire to marry the childless woman only.

Now this should produce some interesting comments over time.

I/O

[Simoni]

The main reason of starting that thread was an argument with my colleagues at work, I told them that I was going to have a child.
They started laughing at me persuading me that I would not be able to find a man, I told them that there are many foreign men who are ready to marry a woman with a child

Yes, western men will marry an fsu woman with children. 

But why not wait and have your child WITH your future husband?

Marina has several unmarried friends with children.  Life is very very difficult for them.  The grandparents have to step in and help raise the child.

You are young.  Wait for your man and start a family TOGETHER.

[BillyB]

The main reason of starting that thread was an argument with my colleagues at work,I told them that I was going to have a child.

Serebro, are you looking to get pregnant now while searching for a foreign man?

results of the poll gave me 500 roubles!

RWD is certainly a money maker if used wisely. Next time let me in on the deal!!!

I would say, the more advanced and developed is the personality of man, the less important is for him whether she has kids or not. The primitiver is the man, the more adamant is his desire to marry the childless woman only. 

What defines advanced and developed personality? Men of sophisticated tastes or snobs may not want a woman with children and would want children of their own genes. Some RW that don't want a man with children are among the most beautiful and since they have an abundunce of men to choose from, they can command what they want.

I work in construction and there are many men in this line of work that are not the finest citizens, not good looking and are "primitive" in many ways. Many of these guys will settle for any woman who'd have them even if she were fat, on drugs, and had kids.

But I'm speaking of American men, it's possible that Lily is very correct if her statement pertains to FSU men.

[HiTech]

Dale: Read between the lines of what serebro wrote.

The women she was speaking to, "Russian women" were all shocked that AM would accept children. I would assume the reason they are surprised is because most Russian men would not.

HiTech

[Scuba Don]

she says she is already pregnant.  2 late now fer Advice  -:)

[Lily]

What defines advanced and developed personality? Men of sophisticated tastes or snobs may not want a woman with children and would want children of their own genes. 

Speaking of RM, it would probably be some specific kind of snobbery, but not sure that I can define snobbery well enough. Patriarchal mentality would be a better word. However, this point is rather complicated, you are right to raise the question.

[Christian]

Speaking of RM, it would probably be some specific kind of snobbery, but not sure that I can define snobbery well enough. Patriarchal mentality would be a better word. However, this point is rather complicated, you are right to raise the question.

Would the 'patriarchal mentality' in RMs be indicative of "living in the old manner" or would you perhaps view Serebro's cousins second husband as more representative of this value among RMs?

Christian

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, i agree with everything that our girls wrote and might add infamous financial reason. Even for AM that is a big deal.

By the way when i started searching for my second husband i was facing the same questions. Now i have a son. I will have to find a man who will love me as much as my son, two of us together. He should love him as his own. He should be willing to accept the situation and fully understand what happened and why. Divorced and being a widow are two different things too. On the other hand i asked my self a question and admitted that I would never be able/want to marry a man with a child. I wouldn't be able to love him/her as my own, i was afraid that there would be a difference. I didn't want to complicate things. At first I thought it would be VERY difficult to find such a man, but believed to the end that that would happen. And it did. Was this too egoistic on my part or immature? I don't know. I just knew what i could and could not do and was honest about that. The way my husband Tim treats my son Andre - i would be grateful to God forever every single day, some times it seems to me he does it better than some of dads (by blood) nowadays. But the tricky situation is that Tim himself had a step dad, so that concept was acceptable for him and nothing out of the ordinary. Still this is heroism I would say. 

[Lily]

Would the 'patriarchal mentality' in RMs be indicative of "living in the old manner" or would you perhaps view Serebro's cousins second husband as more representative of this value among RMs?

Christian

Tough question. Probably this is a mentality that considers a man more valuable in the society than a woman. Men can choose among women, not vice versa. If he can choose, he would opt for the best woman available. Quality of woman may be also measured with her age and baggage that are her kids. Motherhood can make a woman more mature, but patriarchal men may prefer less mature wife in order to secure his power over her.

I think RM would be able to answer the topic question better than us..
 

[Serebro]

she says she is already pregnant.  2 late now fer Advice  -:)

Who says she is pregnant?!


No, I want to have a child badly, but the process of finding my man can take a lot of time and efforts, so I mentioned in the office that I wanted to have a child and to continue my search, people started persuading me that there would not be men ready to marry me with a child...

[Serebro]

Dale, when I told that my collegues were surprised that AM are ready to marry RW with children from the previous marriages I didn't mean WOMEN who were surprised, only 2 of them were women....
So Russian MEN were surprised, too.

The main reason of RM in our argument was the following:
they don't see RW children as RW children, they see these children as children of other men.
In other words they have this point of view:"she was stupid and light-minded and wanted to have  fun with drunk Russian men who liked to have fun with girls, then she got pregnant and married him, then she divorced him as he had been  drunk and cruel and hadn't earnt much money and he hadn't been  a good father", so why had she married  then?! She hadn't been  a 10 yo girl when she did that. Because she had been  stupid enough and had been  afraid of being called an "old maid"?
So why do I have to earn money and raise children of losers and alcoholics?."


In fact, if you have a look at my cousin's story you will see that they have reasons to have this point of view...
So most RM I know who married RW with children loved their women very much and didn't see children as a problem mainly because they were in love...

[Jazzyclassy]

Dear Dale

I did not read the other people's posts and just would like to tell you the way I see this matter

In Russia and Ukraine there are many , numerous beautiful , attractive, intelligent , amazing kind hearted, charming , pretty, smart ladies and each year the amount of such ladies increases as younger girls become older and consider marriage and so to say start to be some sort of a rivals for the ones who are still searching for a proper decent men.
As you already know the quantity if I may put it so , of men and women in Russia and Ukraine (can tell about Russia only though) is not the same, there are like 5 decent stable men per 15 women , so therefore those men are choosing the best among those girls, so they have to be the best in everything , and their reputation as well and so on.
Unfortunately Russia is full of prejudices and in  earlier days  woman who had a child and was divorced or never been married and had a child , no matter how beautiful and kind and smart she was,  she was considered to be somebody  deserving no respect from a society and was usually labeled and judged by people and moreover society produced a statement that she would never find somebody to be with her and to marry her and to help with her child. Which of course was a huge fault of our society and as you all know crowd is usually cruel to somebody who has a different destiny than the ordinary  mass  of people.

So there was absolutely no doubt  that a woman divorced or never married with kids would stay all alone till the end of her days  and such feeling and prejudice left since that time, of course now the attitude about this matter is much more different but still there are people who think that divorced woman with kids has no future , unfortunately.
Also even if a man considered a marriage with a woman with a child , his mother would definitely object his decision and would make all the necessary efforts for him not to marry her sadly but true I know many stories like that, of mother being so protective of her 30 y.o son and prevented him to marry the woman he loved

That is why our women who are alone with kids see no way out of such society prejudice and labels and of course they are not counting much on finding somebody nice in Russia , of course some lucky women can find true generous men , but these are very rare cases.
Women without kids can not find a  proper man in Russia and you want women with kids find them , I know sounds rather harsh but it is true .......

[Christian]

Dear Dale

I did not read the other people's posts and just would like to tell you the way I see this matter

In Russia and Ukraine there are many , numerous beautiful , attractive, intelligent , amazing kind hearted, charming , pretty, smart ladies and each year the amount of such ladies increases as younger girls become older and consider marriage and so to say start to be some sort of a rivals for the ones who are still searching for a proper decent men.
As you already know the quantity if I may put it so , of men and women in Russia and Ukraine (can tell about Russia only though) is not the same, there are like 5 decent stable men per 15 women , so therefore those men are choosing the best among those girls, so they have to be the best in everything , and their reputation as well and so on.
Unfortunately Russia is full of prejudices and in  earlier days  woman who had a child and was divorced or never been married and had a child , no matter how beautiful and kind and smart she was,  she was considered to be somebody  deserving no respect from a society and was usually labeled and judged by people and moreover society produced a statement that she would never find somebody to be with her and to marry her and to help with her child. Which of course was a huge fault of our society and as you all know crowd is usually cruel to somebody who has a different destiny than the ordinary  mass  of people.

So there was absolutely no doubt  that a woman divorced or never married with kids would stay all alone till the end of her days  and such feeling and prejudice left since that time, of course now the attitude about this matter is much more different but still there are people who think that divorced woman with kids has no future , unfortunately.
Also even if a man considered a marriage with a woman with a child , his mother would definitely object his decision and would make all the necessary efforts for him not to marry her sadly but true I know many stories like that, of mother being so protective of her 30 y.o son and prevented him to marry the woman he loved

That is why our women who are alone with kids see no way out of such society prejudice and labels and of course they are not counting much on finding somebody nice in Russia , of course some lucky women can find true generous men , but these are very rare cases.
Women without kids can not find a  proper man in Russia and you want women with kids find them , I know sounds rather harsh but it is true .......

Is this prejudice of which you speak characteristic of the 'Soviet period' or prior - something deeply ingrained (from whatever source)?

Every son loves his mother; but as I see it in America, any thirty year old who cannot say: "Mom, I love you and I appreciate your concern, but I love this women (with or without child) and it is time for us to form our own family and have our own home" is perhaps not really ready for such responsibility.

Christian

[Lily]

Is this prejudice of which you speak characteristic of the 'Soviet period' or prior - something deeply ingrained (from whatever source)?
 

Even tougher question 

That seems to be rather not a Soviet approach, but, as you told, a deeply ingrained one. To me it looks like another echo of patriarchality, where parents have a sort of power over their children. A Soviet mentality would rather deny the family ties and traditions, if they are not in line with Bolshevism.

[timothe]

Serebro,

May I be the first to recommend against having a child now while searching for a good man.  You may have a small problem when you explain to this good man how you have decided to have this child.  Or worse yet, you could simply lie to this man for the rest of your life and live with the fact that you continue to lie to a good man because you wanted to have children NOW.

Then of course, there is also the matter of the child wanting to have two parents.  The good man will likely be a good father, but he won't be the natural father and you will have to explain this to the child someday.  

Finally, there is the more practical issue of bringing the child over on K-2 visa.  The natural father has to sign a letter permitting the child to leave the country.  (at least, that is the requirement in Russia)  How exactly will you have this conversation with the natural father and what would you do if he decides not to sign the letter?  Will you lose a good man because you decided to have a child with some random Russian man now?  Seems silly and shortsighted to me.  

[Simoni]

I want to have a child badly, but the process of finding my man can take a lot of time and efforts, so I mentioned in the office that I wanted to have a child and to continue my search...

I had this discussion with a girl I was serious with.  She did not have a chlld and wanted one badly.

But she said that when you have a child you have to consider the man, and his genes and personality.  That's where she kept saying "no."

Chances are if you find a man that you want to father your child, he has the genes and personality you want.  Thus, he should be the man you marry.

Make sense?

[William3rd]

Permission letter is no problem- just leave him off the original birth certificate. Father unknown.



But-why would you take on the responsibility of another mouth to feed. Besides, babies are not like dogs or cats. They need a lot of nurturing.

Did you talk to your mother about this decision?

[Misha]

The survey indicated that many men were willing to marry a woman from the FSU with a child, but not all. What happens if the man you want to marry, the many that you truly like, falls into the "not all" category? There are many factors at play. A 50 year old WM marrying a 40 year old RW is not likely to be turned off by the fact that she has a child already. He would expect it as he knows that most women having reached that age will have been married at some point and  likely will have a child. However, a 35 year old man who is looking for women in their mid-to-late 20's is much more likely to find women that do not have a child. As such, many men in his age bracket, if they have a choice between a woman with a child and a woman without a child, will opt for a woman without a child.

[Mir]

I am Serebro!!!!!    It means Silver!!!!!!!

So you are Olga Seryabkina?

And I presume you plan to use a sperm bank to conceive in order the reduce complication?

[Jazzyclassy]

I think it is a little bit selfish to have a child just for yourself, well cos a child is not choosing his parents and he does not deserve to have only one  father or only one mother, he/she needs to have a real full family, at least this is my personal vision, there are a lot of women who think like Serebro nowadays and not only in Russia in many other countries , but I completely desagree with such thinking

I understand that instincts are calling,  I feel that myself  but this does not mean one needs to urgently have a child just from anyone , no matter whom , just to satisfy one's own natural needs , but then again that is a personal choice of everyone, if that is how person wishes , let it be so .......

[Christian]

I think it is a little bit selfish to have a child just for yourself, well cos a child is not choosing his parents and he does not deserve to have only one  father or only one mother, he/she needs to have a real full family, at least this is my personal vision, there are a lot of women who think like Serebro nowadays and not only in Russia in many other countries , but I completely desagree with such thinking

I understand that instincts are calling,  I feel that myself  but this does not mean one needs to urgently have a child just from anyone , no matter whom , just to satisfy one's own natural needs , but then again that is a personal choice of everyone, if that is how person wishes , let it be so .......

I don't pretend to understand the female psyche since I am often second guessing and left wondering, but I do agree that the modern world culture is tending toward a total eclipse of the basic fundamentals of the family nucleus (man/woman/child).

This is more readily seen in the male/male or female/female adoption of children that is found with sanction from civil authorities.  While the motivation to adopt is good, the complexion of such a home upbringing is twisted and skewed.

Again, although I don't pretend to understand Serebro's thinking about (theoretically) having a child before she finds Mr. Right and Pure Delight (most of the time), it seems to me to be an inadequate appreciation of the child's wants and needs - whether the child is male or female - simply because the child needs and deserves both the masculine and feminine influences in their lives.

Christian