Child in England.

[Misha]

You are expecting the woman to give up HER desire to live in her native country and raise HER child in her native country.  Why don't you expect the same from the man?  Why must the woman be forced to live in HIS country for the good of the child?  Why shouldn't the man be expected to live in HER country?

LIke I mentioned before, one of the reasons that I moved to Ukraine was that it was better for her/our daughter to stay there.  sure it required some sacrifices on my part, but if I wanted to be a good father and do what was best for her, this was the right thing to do.  I'm no expecting anything of anyone here that I wasn't willing to do.

To answer your question: yes, I am expecting that my wife will not desire to live in her native country and raise OUR child or OUR children in her native country. My wife married me and moved to my country. If she did not want to move, I would not have married her and if I thought that she was intent on raising OUR children in Russia, I would not have married her. If my wife absolutely wanted to marry a foreigner and stay in her country, she could have continued looking.

Scott, if you want to live in the Ukraine and raise any children that you have with your wife there, that is your right. If that is the deal that you have with your wife, so much the better for the both of you and for your children.

However, both the man and the woman must know what they are getting into. The fact is that if a woman has a child with a foreigner in his country, she may not be given automatically the "right" to travel back home to live permanently with the child or the children she had with her husband. If she is not willing to live with that, then in my opinion she should continue looking for: a local man or a foreigner who is willing to emigrate to her country.

Scott, also note that I underlined the "our" as I believe that any children that I have with my wife won't be "my" children or "her" children, they will be OUR children with all the rights and responsibilities that come with it.

[Misha]

Sure, in some (even many) cases the FSU father does not care one way or the other but in some (maybe also many) cases this is not true. Who's to say the father here would be any better or worse than the stereotype we are fed about FSU men?

Where would a woman feel that she could survive with a child? In a strange country with limited resources, limited language, and limited friends/family or with her family who would be her support system, care for the child while she works and shops, and be there for and with her in an environment that she is comfortable with?

I personally believe that a Russian father's rights should be respected. He should have a say in whether his children will leave the country. If he is willing to sign away his rights, that is his prerogative, but a Russian mother should not have the right to leave the country with his children if he is a good father and pays his child support.

As to the questions of the woman's "survival," I have one question: why aren't all the immigrants in the United States and Canada fleeing back to their home countries? Why are there so many illegal immigrants in the United States (including illegal immigrants from Ukraine and Russia)? Why are so many FSU women looking for foreign husbands? Again, if your life is good back home and you have your support network and everything else you need to be happy, why would you emigrate to another country to begin with?

[vwrw]

This started after he asked for marital contract.   Marital contract to any woman means a man is trying to protect himself and his financial standing and how is she to know she can survive in another country with limited language if she needed to devote herself to family and child and not make career.    She may feel she has to leave country and leave child here in case of divorce.  

I am curious too how many men would choose to have their child born in Russia if there was big potential of no possibility for them to live there and they might have to give up their child.

I wonder how many men if they had little money would choose the flowers over the money. The fact that the agency offered her $ 10.00 tells me the woman probably has not good financial standing.   In other case the agency could hardly take a risk to ruin it's reputation if this became known.    

[catzenmouse]

I personally believe that a Russian father's rights should be respected. He should have a say in whether his children will leave the country. If he is willing to sign away his rights, that is his prerogative, but a Russian mother should not have the right to leave the country with his children if he is a good father and pays his child support.

The law in Russia (and I assume that the other FSU countries are the same) does support the fathers right to prohibit the child from leaving the country. Even if he doesn't even know what the child looks like or has every spoken with the kid, as long as he is paying the support. Much the same as here, the legal system has little or nothing to do with justice.

As to the questions of the woman's "survival," I have one question: why aren't all the immigrants in the United States and Canada fleeing back to their home countries? Why are there so many illegal immigrants in the United States (including illegal immigrants from Ukraine and Russia)? Why are so many FSU women looking for foreign husbands? Again, if your life is good back home and you have your support network and everything else you need to be happy, why would you emigrate to another country to begin with?

This seems a bit like apples & oranges to me. I don't see a correlation between that type of immigrant (who often comes with their family) to a recently separated/divorced mother here alone.

Regardless, I'm not going to even begin to discuss or argue about immigration problems. We've been down that road several times too many already.

Ken

[Misha]

I am curious too how many men would choose to have their child born in Russia if there was big potential of no possibility for them to live there and they might have to give up their child.

How many Russian women would marry foreigners if they did not earn WM salaries? Would they want us to quit our jobs and move to Russia to earn 5 or 10 times less than what we earn in our home countries?

Also, many if not most Russian women can make more and live better in their new countries than in their home countries. One woman I know is always complaining about how much better her life would be in Russia. Does she leave? No. She is now divorced and is free to leave. However, she is earning more working for a local grocery store than she would be working back home in Russia as a librarian. A woman can survive quite nicely in her new country.

[Misha]

This seems a bit like apples & oranges to me. I don't see a correlation between that type of immigrant (who often comes with their family) to a recently separated/divorced mother here alone.

The point is that she does not HAVE to go back to her home country for her survival. She can do what millions of other immigrants (legal and illegal) do: find a job and work with her income being supplemented by child support.

[ScottinCrimea]

gabaub,  Are you planning on having any children with your wife?  You say that you are "expecting" that she will not desire to live in her native country..." Have you discussed with her your expectations should this occur as well as all of the possible circumstances/options?  Were all of these matters discussed in full before you proposed to her? If you have, and you are both in full agreement, then you have done well.  Still, many are surprised at how plans, expectations, wants, etc. change with the birth of a child or the souring of a relationship. Now here is Hitech, in the process of similar discussions, asking questions so that they both can be fully informed about their feelings and options on the matter and people start to go off on him.  You say, "However, both the man and the woman must know what they are getting into". His fiancee has never been to the US so of course she will have many ideas, many of them totally irrational, about what awaits her there.  As soon as a RW informs her friends that she will be moving to the US she is inundated with information, both good and bad, both reliable and downright stupid about how things are there.  I recall some of the totally silly myths that I had to dispel in my wife's mind before she came to the US and even with her here now I'm still working on it.

catzenmouse,  Many of the immigrants are indeed "fleeing" back to their home countries.  I know a number of people who came to the US and later decided they prefer to live in Ukraine.  The director of the language institute where I taught told me that in her travels to the US, with the immmigrant couples that she met, every one told her that their aim was to stay in the US only long enough to build a retirement and then move back.  We dont hear so much about the reverse immigration, but it exists.  Also, look at the large numbers of ex-pats out there who prefer to live in another country over the US.

I'm a firm believer in parental rights, but I'm also a firm believer in equal rights for both the father and the mother and your posts smack of "it's my way or the highway".

[HiTech]

TG,

 I wasn't even addressing any inconsistencies. Enough other's are following that path. Just something I've noticed over the years when I see a "you don't know me" or "you don't understand my situation" type of statement.

 I always get the thought: "Well Duh! How can anyone understand or know when we are only fed highly selective bits of information?"

Oh well, on with the show!
 

Ken the reason I did give only limited information is my question was completely technical. I gave a little background information as to why I had the question, that may have been a bad idea.

No where did I ask, or inquire for evaluation of my relationship. If I have then please show me where because I have missed it. Other people then tell me I should not be asking my question, but should be asking and be concerned about the thought behind the question. ( this is unwelcome advise , but at least there concern is in the correct place)

And then people come in and judge a complete relationship on little knowledge of something that was not asked for.

I/O: Using your logic, any relationship I would ever have must be doomed because I have decided I wish a prenup long before I ever met any women.

[Misha]

gabaub,  Are you planning on having any children with your wife?  You say that you are "expecting" that she will not desire to live in her native country..." Have you discussed with her your expectations should this occur as well as all of the possible circumstances/options?  Were all of these matters discussed in full before you proposed to her? If you have, and you are both in full agreement, then you have done well.

Yes, I did discuss this in detail with my wife before we got married. I told her in no clear terms that if ever we get divorced, I will never agree to her traveling to Russia alone with our children as their is a risk that she would simply stay there. She knew where I stood on the issue and she had the right to not marry me if she did not agree. I do not want to be a disposable dad with any children that we have together. I am willing to accept the full responsibilities of fatherhood, but in return I also want to have my rights respected.

[Misha]

Also, look at the large numbers of ex-pats out there who prefer to live in another country over the US.

Yes, but these ex-pats get bonuses for staying in another country and get paid a salary that is much higher than they would be getting if they were a local working in that country. Take away the bonuses, give them the "standard" salary for that country, and I will wager that most of those ex-pats will be returning home faster than you can say "do svidaniya"!

[ScottinCrimea]

Yes, I did discuss this in detail with my wife before we got married. I told her in no clear terms that if ever we get divorced, I will never agree to her traveling to Russia alone with our children as their is a risk that she would simply stay there. She knew where I stood on the issue and she had the right to not marry me if she did not agree. I do not want to be a disposable dad with any children that we have together. I am willing to accept the full responsibilities of fatherhood, but in return I also want to have my rights respected.

As long as your wife is comfortable giving up her rights so that yours are respected, that's entirely between you both.

Maybe if you had told her in no unclear terms, she might not have agreed.   

[Misha]

As long as your wife is comfortable giving up her rights so that yours are respected, that's entirely between you both.

Maybe if you had told her in no unclear terms, she might not have agreed.   

You call it giving up her rights, I call it protecting my rights as a father. She knew where I stood before getting married, she knows where I stand now and she had the choice of not marrying me if she disagreed.

Yeah, it was my typo: I inadvertently added the "no".

If other men want to do things differently, that is their right. However, I do not like when it is portrayed as a question of the mother's rights being denied or trampled upon. Are fathers more than sperm donors? I hope so.

I am a firm believer in that both sides should be honest and they should discuss and come to an agreement on these issues before getting married. Again, both sides entered into the marriage freely and they should be aware of any potential consequences. If she believes that her rights will be potentially be infringed if she marries a foreigner and has a child in his country, then she should do the honorable thing and not marry a foreigner.

[ScottinCrimea]

You call it giving up her rights, I call it protecting my rights as a father. She knew where I stood before getting married, she knows where I stand now and she had the choice of not marrying me if she disagreed.

Yeah, it was my typo: I inadvertently added the "no".

If other men want to do things differently, that is their right. However, I do not like when it is portrayed as a question of the mother's rights being denied or trampled upon. Are fathers more than sperm donors? I hope so.

I am a firm believer in that both sides should be honest and they should discuss and come to an agreement on these issues before getting married. Again, both sides entered into the marriage freely and they should be aware of any potential consequences. If she believes that her rights will be potentially be infringed if she marries a foreigner and has a child in his country, then she should do the honorable thing and not marry a foreigner.

You also called it giving up her rights

The only right that is denied is her "right" to leave the country without the father's permission.

I agree that it takes a very special woman who would give up so many rights for a man.  The other one who would lose their rights in this situation would be the child who would be unable to travel with his mother to visit his relatives overseas.  But then I guess their rights aren't as important....

[Misha]

You also called it giving up her rights

I agree that it takes a very special woman who would give up so many rights for a man.  The other one who would lose their rights in this situation would be the child who would be unable to travel with his mother to visit his relatives overseas.  But then I guess their rights aren't as important....

Well, I guess for you the rights of the father do not matter. How would you feel if your wife left with the children that you loved and as a consequence you could  never see them?

[William3rd]

Scott- you were doing good until that last bit.

You decided to leave out the flip side of the child's right to see his father and HIS family if the situation was reversed.

It is  a difficult decision. Blame goes squarely on the parents when it doesnt work out and the children need to blame them both for not working it out. . . . 

[catzenmouse]

No worries HiTech,

 I sincerely hope that these things are not as large or red flaggish as they appear to be. It is always very difficult on a discussion board to know how much to reveal in order to give enough information to get valuable input.

 Some of the folks here who may seem like they only want to crap on you are also the ones who are really rooting for you to turn it into a success. May seem a bit odd but it is true none the less.

Best of luck to you,
 Ken

Ken the reason I did give only limited information is my question was completely technical. I gave a little background information as to why I had the question, that may have been a bad idea.

No where did I ask, or inquire for evaluation of my relationship. If I have then please show me where because I have missed it. Other people then tell me I should not be asking my question, but should be asking and be concerned about the thought behind the question. ( this is unwelcome advise , but at least there concern is in the correct place)

And then people come in and judge a complete relationship on little knowledge of something that was not asked for.

I/O: Using your logic, any relationship I would ever have must be doomed because I have decided I wish a prenup long before I ever met any women.

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott- you were doing good until that last bit.

You decided to leave out the flip side of the child's right to see his father and HIS family is the situation was reversed.

It is  a difficult decision. Blame goes squarely on the parents when it doesnt work out and the children need to blame them both for not working it out. . . . 

I only left that out because gabaub had already made the decision with his wife that this would not be an option, basically securing the rights of himself and his family and ignoring those of her relatives and the child to even have this option.  To his mind, ONLY the rights of the father matter. As he describes it, if there were to be a divorce, his wife would lose her right to live in her country and their child would lose his/her right to visit her relatives there.  He would lose nothing. You are right that either way, as with any divorce, it is usually the rights of the child that suffer most.

gabaub, I don't think you will find a stronger supporter of fathers' rights than me, to the extent that after my first divorce I had sole custody of our four children and raised them as a single father for over 6 years.  But even more, I fought to protect my childrens' rights while not stripping my ex-wife of any of her rights.

[BillyB]

In America, the court values child rights as much or more than the mother and father's and the child has the right to see both parents. The child's rights will be protected over a parent who want's to move to a distant location, most likely out of State. The parent who wants to move must give up their rights to frequently see the child unless they get permission from the other parent to take the child with them.

For all those who has a child from a previous marriage, you are all in the situation Hitech's fiancee doesn't want to be in if the marriage ends in divorce. Sometimes life sucks for one of the parents who may have to pass on a good job opportunity or pass up on the place they want to live their life. Is what it is.

[Misha]

gabaub, I don't think you will find a stronger supporter of fathers' rights than me, to the extent that after my first divorce I had sole custody of our four children and raised them as a single father for over 6 years.  But even more, I fought to protect my childrens' rights while not stripping my ex-wife of any of her rights.

Well, you were lucky. If your wife had left the country and denied you access, you would be singing a different tune.

[ScottinCrimea]

My ex couldn't have denied me access under any country's law that I know of, and if she had left the country legally with the kids, I would have done what it takes to be there with them and then made arrangements for them to have regular visits with my family in the US.  Certainly in my mind there would never be a consideration for taking the kids to the US for a visit and then never returning them and there are legal means if necessary to assure the other, that my ex could take the children to visit her country and be expected to return them. If it were my preference to live in the US and my ex's preference to live somewhere else, the decision would be made based on which location was best for our children.  Too many divorced parents forget to think about what is best for the children and only argue over their own "rights".

[Misha]

My ex couldn't have denied me access under any country's law that I know of, and if she had left the country legally with the kids, I would have done what it takes to be there with them and then made arrangements for them to have regular visits with my family in the US.  Certainly in my mind there would never be a consideration for taking the kids to the US for a visit and then never returning them and there are legal means if necessary to assure the other, that my ex could take the children to visit her country and be expected to return them. If it were my preference to live in the US and my ex's preference to live somewhere else, the decision would be made based on which location was best for our children.  Too many divorced parents forget to think about what is best for the children and only argue over their own "rights".

And, do you think if your ex had returned with the children to Russia or Kazhakhstan or Belarus or most other places in the FSU that you could have easily have gotten them back if your wife was not collaborating?

Yes, Scott, in a perfect world both parents would respect the rights of the other parent and they would put their children first and they would not use their children as a means of exacting revenge on their ex spouses.... Sadly, we do not live in a perfect world.

[ScottinCrimea]

Of course with some countries this would be more difficult, but not impossible if she refused to collaborate, and knowing that if she chose to do so she would lose her rights to future visitations makes it much less likely.  She would have to be either extremely evil or extremely stupid, and I don't marry such people.

All I'm suggesting to you is that before you make such unbending rules regarding your "rights" is that you step back and consider the idea that down the road, what is best for your children might require you to relinquish or at least modify some of those rights.

[Misha]

Of course with some countries this would be more difficult, but not impossible if she refused to collaborate, and knowing that if she chose to do so she would lose her rights to future visitations makes it much less likely.  She would have to be either extremely evil or extremely stupid, and I don't marry such people.

All I'm suggesting to you is that before you make such unbending rules regarding your "rights" is that you step back and consider the idea that down the road, what is best for your children might require you to relinquish or at least modify some of those rights.

Scott, the reality is IMHO that you do not really know your partner until you divorce them. There is a fine line separating love and hate and a divorce tends to bring out the worst in all parties involved. What I am saying is that a man who lets his wife leave for Russia or Ukraine or Kazakhstan thinking that she will respect his rights or the rights of his children to a father had better be prepared to spends tens of thousands of dollars with no real guarantee that he will ever see his children again.

[ScottinCrimea]

I don't disagree that divorces can get very ugly and teach you new things about the person you thought that you knew very well.

Okay, let's look at the options:  Certainly if there are indications that her intent is to keep the children in her country and try to keep them away from you, you would not allow this as this would be selfish on her part and not in the best interests of the children.  Besides denying them contact with their father she would be denying them your support, both emotional and financial.  Barring any clues that this might occur, my choice would be to absolutely deny them any right to visit her country and family based on a relatively low risk, or allow my children this right, knowing that there is a slight risk that the worst could happen and being prepared to spend whatever it would take to get them back.  Sometimes as a parent you have to take such risks.  If you are right, your children will have a wonderful blessing.  If you are wrong, you did the best that you could and you work to correct your error.  Such is the life of a parent.  Even with allowing your child to drive, you take the risk that an accident could occur and no amount of money would bring them back, but it's a risk you take knowing that it is necessary to expand your child's horizons and make their life better and more happy.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any children?

[Misha]

Yes, but I am one of those that go burnt in the process.