Opinions please

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,
Interesting post.  May I ask how thing are now between you and your "artistic" wife?  (Feel free to tell me it is none of my damn business! )  Do you think she loves you now?  Do you love her? Do you feel secure in your marriage?
KenC

Ken,
I'm now 59, she's 48.  Like all couples we have our highs and lows. When we were dating, Dido's "White Flag" was popular in Ukraine and would often be heard on the radio in our apartment.  She didn't understand the words but still pronounced it "our song".  Like many RW/UW she has what they call "extra sense".. she seemed to understand the meaning of the words, "I will go down with this ship" and its significance to our relationship merely by the melody and the tone of Dido's voice.
During the times I think I would be better off pulling the plug, I realize that she needs and loves me despite her undiplomatic criticisms of me.  And, I can't contemplate starting over with someone else.  So when we are at a low point, I remember the words to "our song" and then I remind myself that these imperfections that irritate us today will change character over time.  I'm reminded of a scene in Good Will Hunting... a conversation between Sean (Robin Williams) and Will (Matt Damon).....

Sean:
My wife used to fart when she was nervous. She had all sorts of wonderful little idiosyncrasies. She used to fart in her sleep. I thought I’d share that with you. One night it was so loud it woke the dog up. She woke up and went ‘ah was that you?’ And I didn’t have the heart to tell her. Oh!
Will:
She woke herself up?
Sean:
Ah...! But Will, she’s been dead for 2 years, and that's the *snip* I remember: wonderful stuff you know? Little things like that. Those are the things I miss the most. The little idiosyncrasies that only I know about: that's what made her my wife. Oh she had the goods on me too, she knew all my little peccadilloes. People call these things imperfections, but there not. Ah, that's the good stuff.

[smartcat]

Rick,
Better to look for a woman with a good heart (does she criticize beggars or give them a few kopecks?)

Ronnie, I personally won't take the value of an Ukrainian to have a good heart if she/he gives (or does not give) money to Ukrainian beggars. 
Even worser - in many cases it's a social blindness, which gives mafia opportunity to control the beggars.
What do do you think about begging women holding kids (very likely kidnapped) who... ALWAYS asleep? Being under vodka or drugs?

There's a voluntaree movement forming in Moscow today, appealing people NOT to give money to beggars in Moscow subway and to push policemen to check their docs (usually police don't take a lot of attention). Many of those voluntarees help orphanages. I don't think they must be judged as bad heart people.

[Voyageur]

I have some comments to Ronnie's post:

My conclusion is that Women of the FSU are not as emotionally developed as western women.

I think that FSU women cannot be characterized like this. In my experiences before I met my wife, there was one UW whom was obviously looking to improve her and her daughter's situation in life, with not so many "stars in her eyes" as I would have liked.  We got a K-1 and I wound up sending her home also.

But I had some experiences with other women and I found them to be quite romantic, much more interesting and developed in every way to their western counterparts (whom I also dated for a time after my divorce). It was so refreshing to find the mindset of the FSU woman after the "games" and "trials" that Western Women put me through. With FSU women, you know where you stand pretty well - with western women you are always guessing somehow. Although I admit that I was stupid and ignored all the red flags in my failed K-1 with a UW, in hindsight every sign was there to see.

Maybe I am mis characterizing what you mean about emotional development but I don't think so. IMHO, FSU women are far more developed than our the majority of our women. When you factor in the if the Western woman is more beautiful than most of her Western sisters, the complication factor grows exponentially.

During the times I think I would be better off pulling the plug, I realize that she needs and loves me despite her undiplomatic criticisms of me.

This is another acquired taste..... how many times have you found yourself saying something politically correct to a Western Woman?  The frank way of speaking in families did require some "training"  on my part, but now it is hard to imagine communication any other way. When I was married (too many years) to a Western woman, the level of communications was always colored by ulterior motives and diplomatic speak.  After all, she was my "partner" as she understood it - not my wife and romantic other half.

Recently, I found myself feeling ashamed of myself when my wife and I were at a reception.  After a brief period of socializing, we were all seated  in a large room to watch a film about something inconsequential. There were folding chairs and we were in the second to the front row. She went to hold my hand and I started to think about all the American women behind us, seeing us holding hands like teenagers and I pulled away after a short time because I knew that this would be noticed by those behind us. My wife was already noticed by the other women at the party because she was a bright spot in comparison to the other women there. I know enough about women's nature to imagine what nasty whispers could arise and I did not want her to have to face this possibility.

What a stupid thing for me to do.  I will never make that mistake again. She is plenty tough enough to answer any questions they could imagine.

FSU women are emotionally mature enough for me. Maybe I have push myself more to reach their standards.

[Jumper]

Ronnie said

Their notion of romantic love (which 900 years ago scarcely existed on earth) is not yet clear to them.  They know what it's supposed to be and they want it as much as we do, but their instinct for survival and protection of their young is overriding.

What I'm saying is this, the biggest mistake I made in my search was to try to seek out a RW who was only interested in me as a person and had no ulterior motives (material concerns).   That was an unworkable proposition in that environment.

Being an "artist" shouldn't in itself disqualify her..  it doesn't necessarily denote dishonesty of the destructive sort.  Don't focus on the impropability of love at first sight.   Better to look for a woman with a good heart (does she criticize beggars or give them a few kopecks?), a sense of humor (it will get you through the tough times),  a hard worker, be it domestic or outside the home and a love for children and animals.  If you are a good person, your relationship will grow closer and a kind of love will emerge that may not be what you are expecting or conceived of in the beginning.  

That should sober some folks up..

Scott said

First, I think Ronnie is spot on.  But I also think that those who don't truly understand FSUW will misinterpret the meaning behind his words

Scott i agree,
I will say  when i also first read his post ,I thought, that's nonsense.
but when i think about my experiences, anywhere in the FSU ,
or think about the majority of WM/RW couples i have known,,.
it isnt far off the mark as a generality -
and it isn't as bad as it can misinterpreted to sound.



I do think it is "just" a generality though..
as you can certainly find someone interested primarly in you as a person,
and NO ,that is not a mistake to do so,
and it IS what you should look for,despite the other circumstances!
 
 i think ronnies experience mimicks many poeoples..
yet there are those that found that tru elove was the prinmary motivating factor.

That was an unworkable proposition in that environment

I disagree on this point, diffuicult yes, unworkable no.

I contend that RECOGNiIZING the truth in Ronnies points, is
* taking the blue pill* of the matrix

it is a matter of recognizing the reality of the cultural and economic differences,
and accepting that thier are many MANY factors that guide a life decision.
*romantic love* is certainly not the only guiding or deciding factor in marraige,
and hasnt been often in mankinds history?

it is being realistic, and facing that those factors, and their place in the list of priorities,
 is different in different cultures and situations

India is different than south Africa? or Isreal, or France or  the FSU or the west?
 and for a man to think that true romantic love is in the same place in the list of of priorities in all these cultures is a bit narrow minded? so its certainly a good  thing that a man traveling outside of his culture ,for marriage , recognizes that.

i do think having your eyes wide open,
 is a pre-requisete to help you in this venture,

however-
 i do NOT think any man  should simply throw up his  hands and abandond the
idea of finding someone ,whose PRIMARY motivation, is thier true feeling for you..
 
Cultural differences exist ,and they are larger than often glossed over here-
 recognize them, expect them, learn them ,and don't be surprised by them.
but that should HELP you , not HINDER you ,
in finding a person that is into you, as a person.

I guess thats why i was looking for someone reasonably successful in thier enviroment ,
not set on leaving,and who was looking for someone they really loved, and could spend the time to find if that was true ,before marriage.
While the cultures around the globe are different, each individual and situation
 is quite varied, you can find someone truly interested in you, for you.
yes even in the FSU.
 
It's a long winded post =/ sorry,  I suppose all I  wanted to really say was ,that i recognize some truths in Ronnies thoughts, but think that particular knowledge , should be used to aid a man in his search, not for the man to just accept "thats how it is there" and conceeded to the fate of hoping if you are both good people "it will work out".

That YES, despite knowing and accepting the  *rules of engagement* (no pun intended)
A WM still should primarly be looking for someone whose main reason for marrying you, is because they have true romanti clove for you..and uyes RW posses this characteristic,quite in abundance.
It may get clouded often in the FSU, particularly iun the marriage agency game,
 but it  is not some mystic unworkable scenerio!!

[Jumper]

As far as phantoms original question -

i will turn into a OMB for a moment- lol


Regardless of nationality ,or circumstances,
 
if any man  seriously feels the need to ask if a woman is to young for him, she is.


its not rocket sceince and there is no formula that works it all out for you.

the truth is you already know quite well, if she is or if she isn't.
Now what you do about that,, may have little to do with that knowledge..lol
 ..as decisions in the realm of romance ,or love, are very seldom made on such nuisences
 



 

[phantom]

Ron, have we met?  AJ, no I just asked to see what the opinion was on here, is all.  I think that she is pretty mature, not say as a 50 year old, but mature.  I've seen some on the boards with a 17 year or more difference.  We share a lot of things in common.  But, there are older ones that I'm communicating with, quite a few of them, from Russia and Ukraine.  A few have children, which is nice.  There are a total of 11 as the moment, some I've written good bye letters to.  I was just considering this one for the first meeting, as we share many of the same interests and think some on the same subjects.  I just wasn't sure if there was a normal age difference here, as to what people think and what has worked before.  So, that's that.  I'll be making my mind set on this one, as it's like anything else in life we shall live, we shall see.

[Jumper]

phantom,
it's all good, sounds lik ea decent plan, and why not meet her?

totally understand,
my wife is 15 years younger , and was 24 when i met her,
it's why i added the cheesy grin..

no stones thrown from here.. 
was just living up to the OMB standard of being typically "Russian "direct" lol

[mischief]

After sending my first K-1 back home, I was in Costco and overheard a couple speaking Russian with a Ukrainian accent.  I introduced myself (in Russian) My conclusion is that Women of the FSU are not as emotionally developed as western women.  Their notion of romantic love (which 900 years ago scarcely existed on earth) is not yet clear to them.  They know what it's supposed to be and they want it as much as we do, but their instinct for survival and protection of their young is overriding.

What I'm saying is this, the biggest mistake I made in my search was to try to seek out a RW who was only interested in me as a person and had no ulterior motives (material concerns).   That was an unworkable proposition in that environment.

Being an "artist" shouldn't in itself disqualify her..  it doesn't necessarily denote dishonesty of the destructive sort.  Don't focus on the impropability of love at first sight.   Better to look for a woman with a good heart (does she criticize beggars or give them a few kopecks?), a sense of humor (it will get you through the tough times),  a hard worker, be it domestic or outside the home and a love for children and animals.  If you are a good person, your relationship will grow closer and a kind of love will emerge that may not be what you are expecting or conceived of in the beginning.   She is also judging you on your ability to be a provider and strong leader of a family..a resolute decision maker.  If you see her judging you on any other basis, you might consider moving on.

Ronnie, your post is very sincere ...

Though everybody has ulterior motives ... all of us are looking for someone who can provide emotional or material security, fit our standards, who make us look better or someone to have kids with... People will be interested in who you are only when and if you have something to offer...

Due to economic situation and pressing material instability it's no wonder why FSU ladies have material security as a priority... nothing wrong with that... this is how the humanity survives...




As to the age difference, it doesn't matter as long as you can communicate with each other and have the same belief system and values...
One of the advantage of younger ladies is that they are more flexible and adapt easily...

[groovlstk]

What I'm saying is this, the biggest mistake I made in my search was to try to seek out a RW who was only interested in me as a person and had no ulterior motives (material concerns).   That was an unworkable proposition in that environment.

My experience was completely the opposite, and for that I thank God every day.

[catzenmouse]

One of the advantage of younger ladies is that they are more flexible and adopt easily...

mischief are you saying that us crusty, cranky, totally set in our ways, miserable OMB's can't change?

 

[mischief]

mischief are you saying that us crusty, cranky, totally set in our ways, miserable OMB's can't change?

 

LOL... well, i meant to adapt to a new country with different language, customs, speed and mentality... but maybe you are right, to old crusty cranky miserable you, guys... 

[KenC]

mischief are you saying that us crusty, cranky, totally set in our ways, miserable OMB's can't change?

 

Catz,
No, it can happen, but like old dogs and new tricks, it requires a baseball bat!
 
KenC
(with the bruises to prove it!)

[ScottinCrimea]

As to the age difference, it doesn't matter as long as you can communicate with each other and have the same belief system and values...

I can't think of anyone here married for any length of time to a woman with a significant age difference who would ever say that the difference doesn't matter.  It does matter, in a lot of ways.

[BC]

I can't think of anyone here married for any length of time to a woman with a significant age difference who would ever say that the difference doesn't matter.  It does matter, in a lot of ways.

I'll second that.

[mischief]

I can't think of anyone here married for any length of time to a woman with a significant age difference who would ever say that the difference doesn't matter.  It does matter, in a lot of ways.

ok, let me rephrase it... being married to a wonderful man 25 years older than me for five years, right now I can say the age difference is not an issue! 

[Gator]

ScottinCrimea,

I can't think of anyone here married for any length of time to a woman with a significant age difference who would ever say that the difference doesn't matter.  It does matter, in a lot of ways.

BC,

I'll second that.

Are the two of you speaking for just yourselves?

Mischief,

ok, let me rephrase it... being married to a wonderful man 25 years older than me for five years, right now I can say the age difference is not an issue!

...is not an issue TO YOU!  The next RW may have a problem because she is different or her husband is different.  But that would be their own creation.

Mischief, five years is a long time for RW-AM marriages.  Yet you seem very contented if not happy with your man.  Congratulations!

[mischief]

Mischief, five years is a long time for RW-AM marriages.  Yet you seem very contented if not happy with your man.  Congratulations!

I can't complain.. dunno about my husband.. LOL

Gator, you are very nice and intelligent man...I like you already!

[phantom]

I don't know, she's been being sort of flippie lately, especially about the meeting.  May be a lost cause anyway.  LOL, I keep getting the same letter from a 19 year old at cindy.  Same girl, she just can't understand, I don't write children.

[Turboguy]

I can't think of anyone here married for any length of time to a woman with a significant age difference who would ever say that the difference doesn't matter.  It does matter, in a lot of ways.

I will sit on the fence and be somewhat quiet about long term things until "a length of time" has passed.   Personally when it has passed I think my feelings will still be that differences in people are a lot more important than differences in ages. 

[ScottinCrimea]

My intent was definitely not to restart the age difference debate.  I can't see how anyone can say that there are NO issues with an age difference.  The success or failure of the relationship depends primarily on how the issues are dealt with.  Even with a wife only 15 years younger, after over 4 years of being together I'm just now starting to notice some issues that come up or will come up.  Nothing close to being a relationship wrecker, but definitely some things that will need to be dealt with and not ignored.  Some have been totally unexpected.

[Turboguy]

Everytime I see a post like this I as if they can share some details of the things you have experience so I and others can learn. I usually don't get many particulars. Would you be willing to elaborate?

[mischief]

My intent was definitely not to restart the age difference debate.  I can't see how anyone can say that there are NO issues with an age difference.  The success or failure of the relationship depends primarily on how the issues are dealt with.  Even with a wife only 15 years younger, after over 4 years of being together I'm just now starting to notice some issues that come up or will come up.  Nothing close to being a relationship wrecker, but definitely some things that will need to be dealt with and not ignored.  Some have been totally unexpected.

As I stated in my original post : the age difference is not an issue as long as you can communicate with each other and have the same belief system and values... how communication is different from "dealing with the issues"???
And maybe if you share your experience and the issues I might be able to offer you some kinda help by sharing our own experience ...

[phantom]

I think it's important where you can communicate with each other, as this is very important in any relationship.  The better and easier the communication, the stronger the relationship.  It's good when it's easy to talk to the other person, even if the person is a good listener and both can even offer advice to each other concerning things.  If one has a problem, they should be able to tell the other person, even if it's with them. 

[mischief]

My husband is my best friend... we have the same outlook on life, same values, same taste and I speak good English ....  I can talk to him about anything in the world and I know I will be understood and encouraged and vice verse... and it is very important because I come from the culture where "talking with a cup of tea" is essential part of living... So we talk through any issues and challenges in our lives and it makes our marriage stronger...

[Bart]

My husband is my best friend... we have the same outlook on life, same values, same taste and I speak good English ....  I can talk to him about anything in the world and I know I will be understood and encouraged and vice verse... and it is very important because I come from the culture where "talking with a cup of tea" is essential part of living... So we talk through any issues and challenges in our lives and it makes our marriage stronger...

I loved your post, Mischief, and your outlook on life.  Do you have a sister? LOL