The train came off the tracks

[Son of Clyde]

No relationship is perfect. There were periods of time I would not hear from my wife when we were first communicating. This was because of her job that took her away from home for 6 days at a time. It was legitimate if someone works for the transportation system. This putting you off and making up excuses makes it seem as if you are not first and formost in her mind. If you really care for someone they are on your mind every day and maybe 80% of the day. From what I saw in the beginning of the thread there are red flags. I would never do a K1 with someone who was indifferent toward me. The K1 is not a "trial run" it is intended to be used for a fiance with the intent of getting married within 90 days. Think of the cost rto bring a lady here who may not even care for you. I could be wrong but it is something you need to consider.

[DKMM]

Turbo,

I have to say #2,3 are the main factors here.  I pretty much ignored that for too long. 

Serebro, those factors apply to you as well.

SOC,

I do have to admit I made my own mistakes too.  I tended to find little problems with how things were going and immediately jump to the wrong/negative conclusions.  I know that did not go well over time and when the time came that real problems existed I began to doubt they did because earlier I made problems out of almost nothing.  But its no use to beat this horse...

[KenC]

DKMM,
I will not beat you up with "I told you so's" because there is nothing to be gained by it. 

You seem to have rebounded a little bit now and there is a great sevice you can do for RWD.  When and if you feel up to it, a thread detailing the mistakes you made and the red flags you ignored would be so greatly appreciated by the newbies.  Sometimes all the cautionary words from us OMB's fall on deaf ears, where a "how not to do it" from a young man like you might be better received.  Writing it might even give you some closure too.
KenC
(Did you get the ring back?)

[BC]

(Did you get the ring back?)

A gift is a gift or?

[KenC]

A gift is a gift or?

BC,
Many schools fo thought on that one.  As Iunderstand it, DKMM was sending his other girl "friend" to pick it up.  Just was wondering if it happened.
KenC

[BC]

BC,
Many schools fo thought on that one.  As Iunderstand it, DKMM was sending his other girl "friend" to pick it up.  Just was wondering if it happened.
KenC

ahh.. understand.  You obviously have a very good memory ;-)

[edit]  remind me... are we talking 'real' or the 'fake' one?

[KenC]

ahh.. understand.  You obviously have a very good memory ;-)

[edit]  remind me... are we talking 'real' or the 'fake' one?

real

[Serebro]

I think it rather looks like an emotional mind of an instable W. No matter if RW or AW ...

?
What is instable here?!
Is her letter full of anger and insults or what?!
I can see no insults here.
I can see an ordinary letter.
I agree that she doesn't love him. Now.
But I am sure that she loved him in the past. And she wanted to be with him.And she was honest with him. she didn't write tender love letters to him in order to get a visa as soon as possible. Yes, she wanted to get a visa but she honestly told him about the problems she felt they had.And she honestly wanted to be together as long as possbile to try to cope with their problems...

she mentioned RM in her letter and DKMM wrote that he isn't a RM and he will never be, but she knew that from the very beginning and I am sure that her intention was not to tell him how bad he was in comparison with RM, but probably that she had been upbrought in a different society where men had  a different role and maybe it was hard for her to deal with and to respect the man who acted like DKMM did(and in fact I agree with her and I told that in my precious posts to DKMM in his trip reports).
We don't know why or this was written in her letter and what it was connected with as this is only one letter..
and we can't give her different diagnosis based on only one letter that DKMM posted...
I agree these 2 people are not for each other but I disagree with making this type of conclusions about the girl from what DKMM has written about her so far..

[Jumper]

DKMM- again sorry ..to hear.

Tell you what -
"especially on the weekends" ,,seems to be a very very recuirring theme in your troubles.

you were 90% ok,and happy..
,but that 90% was almost always during the week days when you fit nicely into her social schedule
she was *busy* on the weekends,you dint fit in well in that time frame and became a nuisense.
So when you did talk with her she was irritible or *bothered*..
or simply not in contact, at all, with lame excuses. (from the outside looking in)

then when making plans to see her, it had to be around what schedule again?
and not intererested in seeing you on new years when you have filed a K1?
i woman interested in MARRYING a man , in a long distance situation ,
will want to see him anytime she possible casn, wether thats for 2 days or 20 days..wether its in her home town ,or paris.

wow..
i know you dont need beat up,,and i'm not trying to do so..

but honestly bro,,
you put up with FAR too much , for FAR too long..

not one local young chicsta could have had you dancing like that..
and you know it.

while a long distance relationship is a lot of work, it shouldnt be that trying or difficult.
WTF.

I'm sure you know this, but have NO doubts that you did the right thing.




Gator said

In my first year or two, my lack of understanding of RW mentality created some confusion and a couple of conflicts.  However, it was about injured pride, role separation, etc.   In contrast, not talking, not wanting to see you, and lying are not cultural and are deal killers

Phil ..
exactly!  

There are cultural differences ,
 and then  there is plain rude behaviour,
or behaviour of someone not interested. in "just " you..

it should not be that hard to determine between the two either.

if its hard., .you havbe the LATTER

run forest run..
used to be a common phrase, and for dang good reason


Just glad you grabbed your *eggs and spine*  back from her purse.

I mean , hey, i have to ask for mine back occassionally too,
and i know where they are kept,
but i'm not sure you even realized they had left


Good luck and i'm sure you'll find a girl that is into you..for who you are-
not who she *hopes* she can change  you to be

[BC]

DKMM,
I will not beat you up with "I told you so's" because there is nothing to be gained by it. 

You seem to have rebounded a little bit now and there is a great sevice you can do for RWD.  When and if you feel up to it, a thread detailing the mistakes you made and the red flags you ignored would be so greatly appreciated by the newbies.  Sometimes all the cautionary words from us OMB's fall on deaf ears, where a "how not to do it" from a young man like you might be better received.  Writing it might even give you some closure too.
KenC
(Did you get the ring back?)

Yep.. I also think a lot could be learned.  I'm thinking something along the lines of 'first impressions, best impressions'..  I've fallen into the trap of ignoring instinct (red and many pink flags) several times in the past.

[Jumper]

silver-

she acted like a high school girl with her very first seriuos boyfriend.
immaturally and manipulativelly,,finding out her "powers"

A man with self esteem, might (or might not) be *amused* by her,
maybe play with her long enough to have some fun,
 but never marry such.
A decent man knows his value, and its wortha bit more than childish games.

That letter is just that, a letter,
her actions spoke volumes more than her words..

as far as the letter, i agree it was nice she was honest.
but lets loojk at what she was honest about?

Her: At times I'm immature, manipulative and controlling..
I need to see if you can handle and operate me correctly.
Her are some tips,to handle me when i am NOT behaving as I should.
 

Now just how silly of a girl does she have to be ,to think ANY man would want to bother with that foolishness, much less learn how to , if he doesnt know already?

Plenty of girls without that fault are around!!
Being immature, manipulative ,and controlling is a fault,
 a defect, something she should endeavor to repair in her character, not expect someone else to deal with.

You point out DKMM's perceived character flaws,,
and he should work on them ? yes?

but this girl tells him hers , and should not?
 HE should work on his ,and on hers too right ? lol

sorry but while her admitting them is refreshing,
it should have come with a:

"listen DKMM , i know i'm this way,I have these problems,
 and i'm trying to improve so our relatioonship will get better,help as you can?"

what he got instead was:
"Listen my daaaarlin k',
 i have some character problems ,that are fairly seriuos when it comes to having a marriage minded relationship...
 arnt they cute?
 you can deal with them by becoming a different person for me..or by behaving in this strict fatherly way..WHEN i happen to need that style,
or if that fails,
by just putting up with it..as you know i'll be a different girl by tomorow anyway and all will be back to normal."   

The kind of man she says she wants, (of ANY nationality)
would simply send her some *Midol*,
 tell her thanks, but no thanks, and get another girl.

Silver-If you were engaged to a guy you really loved (as you profes she "did" at some point)
would you NOT want to see him for a wek over New years?

we all know people have busy lives ,,but would you continually be, out and about ,
on the weekends ,with no contact?
or would you call your fiancee occassionally perhaps,
just to see how he was doing..because well you actually care,
 and also because you recognize the additional strains of a long distance situation?


if DKMM was a local guy, that she was dating , for fun, her behaviour is somewhat normal..

but normal behaviour for a woman engaged to be married ,a lifelong commitment,  in a long distance relationship?

The letter trying to resolve things?
normal? maybe,,
the honesty can at least be appreciated..
 but a poor attempt..
as it was all on HIM ,to resovle HER issues.. lol

(by the way , that's some nice manipultive work again by her,shes growing up to be quite a catch.)


the actions? normal?
 of not really wanting to see him, and a million other things she had done, that he's mentioned, and likely i million more he hasn't?
 
Hardly.
 

[Serebro]

silver-

she acted like a high school girl with her very first seriuos boyfriend.
immaturally and manipulativelly,,finding out her "powers"

AJ.
How can you know about the way she REALLY acted?!
How can you know what the REAL reasons of her behavior were?
How can you know what DKMM REALLY did?!


We haven't been with them all the time to be able to judge them and make conclusions who is right and who is not.
I don't know that girl, so I can say nothing about her.
We can make conclusions about her basing on what DKMM says, and he can say ANYTHING.

And what can we see here now?!


DKMM who doesn't look very mature also from what he wrote in his trip reports posted photos of his gf on this forum, now he started a thread where all people are saying bad things about her... and she isn't even here...she can't defend herself or tell us how it really was and if that was the truth...at the same time any person can come here, see her photo and discuss her and her life.

[Jazzyclassy]

I agree with AJ

DKMM is a lovely guy, he is very humorous and active , very nice smart guy, acts a little bit younger than his age is , but that is normal. It is not his fault that he fell in love with the wrong girl, his fault was that he tolerated her for that long and that he kept his doubts about their relations  for so long thinking they will disappear. Yeah they are both immature in some way , they do have their negative bits like anyone of us , but they never were ready to put up with each other's lacks , he was trying to change her and she was trying to change him, so nothing happend, the best way was to move on , say goodbye to each other. Finally they did it and it is only for the better, let it be hard for them now then it would be much more worse in the future.

And actually Serebro if you saw DKMM in reality he would knock you from your feet, he is really stunning guy, well my husband is the best lapochka beautiful gorgeous of course can not be compared to anyone, but DKMM is very nice  both in appearance and rather friendly character

[Serebro]

And actually Serebro if you saw DKMM in reality he would knock you from your feet, he is really stunning guy, well my husband is the best lapochka beautiful gorgeous of course can not be compared to anyone, but DKMM is very nice  both in appearance and rather friendly character

lmao

I guess he is stunning, the problem is that being stunning is the main quality to have when you go out to make your teenage friends envious, not to have relationships with...
and as for his friendly character...I would prefer to forget about his insulting me 

[Daveman]

Well, one common thread I see running around the forum could possibly be a matter of semantics, but I doubt it (yet, at times I have been guilty of this as well).

How many times have we seen "Russian Women are (blank)", or "Russian women are not (blank)".  This is complete fallacy and fantasy rolled into one.  There is no cookie cutter stamping out Russian Women, and their personalities, desires, dreams, goals, backgrounds, et al, are as diverse and varied as the spectrum.

One recent statement I read was simply "Russian women are not submissive" or something like that.  Certainly, without question, a percentage of them absolutely are. I know.. I dated one who was/is absolutely and completely submissive in every way. That certainly doesn't make her a bad woman, but simply another color on the RW spectrum.  Her submission to her man was the greatest gift she could possibly give - in her eyes. Absolutely *nothing* wrong with that as long as she finds a man who will cherish her gift accordingly. It's actually quite beautiful.

Hell, look at the personality variances and dissimilarities on this board with the WM.  Some are laid back, some are highly intellectual, some are idiots, some are on edge gnashing at the teeth and foaming out the ass much of the time among an infinite number of other quasi categories as well.  People are simply people - everywhere in the world.. good, bad, honest, dishonest, some like vanilla, some like chocolate.

Whether E is a terrible woman should not be the issue here at all.  The effective issue is that DKMM probably tried to have a relationship with a woman who, aside from anything else, simply is not compatible with him - for whatever reason, and just as important, he was/is not compatible with her.

A PERFECT match for DKMM, or any of us does exist in the FSU if we wish to find her.  The hand in glove analogy is an excellent one.  When two people fit together, compromise is easy, natural, and almost minimal. It just freakin' works.  Of course, any relationship has ups and downs, but people who do not fit together do not pull together - naturally.

If you love the wrong woman for you, the one who would lay down her life to find you doesn't have a chance and you'll miss your true blessing.  A very tough pill to swallow sometimes, but once we do  find that elusive treasure, everything else fades into nothing.

Dave

[KenC]

Davester,
All RW are or are not anything, agreed, but for our purposes here, just think "most" and it will be cool.
KenC

[Jumper]

silver-
You are correct we can not know,
and can only go off of wghat was posted,
and she is not be here to defend herself.

It is a forum, advice is giving, or taken, on what is posted ,little more.
 thats a flaw for sure.
but thats how it is and if we all just said ,*we cannot know for sure *, then little would ever be posted?

while i agree it is not entirely fair to the RW in question ,

my opinions above were formed by what DKMM and jazzy have posted in the past,of her actions, not just her words.
and also what DKMM shared with me in the past when he first entered this relsationship.
What was posted in this thread , to me ,was just more of the same story,
 
at no time did I see in her actions a  person, that was WORKING towards making the relationship better, only a person expecting someone else to do so.

In the end its simply my opinion and can be very inaccurate.
i'm normally wrong , just ask any mans wife that question,she will agree.

I see you find fault in his actions,, and understand a different point of view.

I just see a huge difference between DKMM being faulted for being less strong or nice, or having his family along on the trip ...

than
simply recognizing the poor behaviour and actions of the other person .
(there was quite a bit going on even in his first trip report



 


 

[timothe]

Well, one common thread I see running around the forum could possibly be a matter of semantics, but I doubt it (yet, at times I have been guilty of this as well).

How many times have we seen "Russian Women are (blank)", or "Russian women are not (blank)".  This is complete fallacy and fantasy rolled into one.  There is no cookie cutter stamping out Russian Women, and their personalities, desires, dreams, goals, backgrounds, et al, are as diverse and varied as the spectrum.

One recent statement I read was simply "Russian women are not submissive" or something like that.  Certainly, without question, a percentage of them absolutely are. I know.. I dated one who was/is absolutely and completely submissive in every way. That certainly doesn't make her a bad woman, but simply another color on the RW spectrum.  Her submission to her man was the greatest gift she could possibly give - in her eyes. Absolutely *nothing* wrong with that as long as she finds a man who will cherish her gift accordingly. It's actually quite beautiful.

Hell, look at the personality variances and dissimilarities on this board with the WM.  Some are laid back, some are highly intellectual, some are idiots, some are on edge gnashing at the teeth and foaming out the ass much of the time among an infinite number of other quasi categories as well.  People are simply people - everywhere in the world.. good, bad, honest, dishonest, some like vanilla, some like chocolate.

Whether E is a terrible woman should not be the issue here at all.  The effective issue is that DKMM probably tried to have a relationship with a woman who, aside from anything else, simply is not compatible with him - for whatever reason, and just as important, he was/is not compatible with her.

A PERFECT match for DKMM, or any of us does exist in the FSU if we wish to find her.  The hand in glove analogy is an excellent one.  When two people fit together, compromise is easy, natural, and almost minimal. It just freakin' works.  Of course, any relationship has ups and downs, but people who do not fit together do not pull together - naturally.

If you love the wrong woman for you, the one who would lay down her life to find you doesn't have a chance and you'll miss your true blessing.  A very tough pill to swallow sometimes, but once we do  find that elusive treasure, everything else fades into nothing.

Dave

Excellent post, Dave!!  Thank you. 

[Gator]

E’s letter, or the need for the letter, is extreme.  Every woman that I have liked had a personality that seemed to dovetail with mine. Never were our personalities identical, yet spending time together was as comfortable as wearing my favorite shirt and trousers (or Daveman's "hand in glove").  

So Serebro, I agree with you that DKMM and E were not a good match.  Regardless, I disagree with you regarding AJ’s points.   As did Jazzy, I find AJ’s points to be accurate.

As you say, we only have DKMM’s version.  However, it seems consistent, his trip reports were not immature IMO, and perhaps Serebro you are influenced by how your weird ex- had a twisted view of reality.  There is probably some more to the story, yet please assume for a brief moment that DKMM's version and Jazzy's characterization are accurate.  Now, how would you feel about E?  

For example Serebro, if you were engaged, would you consider a phone call from your future husband as an unwanted interruption?


Personally, I now believe E deceived DKMM in many ways.  This new knowledge about her reaction on weekends is condemning.  A RW in an exclusive relationship should want to talk to her man.  Mine always did and they usually were at home.  For the few times they were at a party, they were happy to hear from me for a brief chat, and they would describe the fun they were having and the people there.   E was so independent and self-absorbed that she could not happily give DKMM a few minutes of her time.

Maybe if she loved DKMM truly, she would have been more receptive, or would be staying at home on the weekends.  Or maybe this is how most young girls behave - I never dated anyone as young as E.

[Serebro]

As you say, we only have DKMM’s version.  However, it seems consistent, his trip reports were not immature IMO, and perhaps Serebro you are influenced by how your weird ex- had a twisted view of reality.  There is probably some more to the story, yet please assume for a brief moment that DKMM's version and Jazzy's characterization are accurate.  Now, how would you feel about E?  

For example Serebro, if you were engaged, would you consider a phone call from your future husband as an unwanted interruption?


Personally, I now believe E deceived DKMM in many ways.  This new knowledge about her reaction on weekends is condemning.  A RW in an exclusive relationship should want to talk to her man.  Mine always did and they usually were at home.  For the few times they were at a party, they were happy to hear from me for a brief chat, and they would describe the fun they were having and the people there.   E was so independent and self-absorbed that she could not happily give DKMM a few minutes of her time.

Maybe if she loved DKMM truly, she would have been more receptive, or would be staying at home on the weekends.  Or maybe this is how most young girls behave - I never dated anyone as young as E.

Gator, I am glad to hear that finally you agree with Jazzy on something:)
I am not influenced by anything, I just know that a person can write ANYTHING.
Posting photos of a girl who had been his fiancee here and discussing things and posting personal letters she writes to him don't make me feel any respect to the man who does it.

please assume for a brief moment that DKMM's version and Jazzy's characterization are accurate.  Now, how would you feel about E?

I feel nothing. I still have the same opinion. I don't think that Jazzy and DKMM were so close that she lived with him and his gf and had a chance to see EVERYTHING.

As for DKMM's previous posts I still find his behavior very strange. I don't know any Russian Woman who would respect this kind of a man unless she is a bossy woman who likes to be a leader...
I told that before but I was told to shut up.. :wallbash:DKMM called me envious...
I can't remember Jazzy had told anything bad about DKMM's gf before...so why should I make conclusions about the girl I don't know at all.

In Jeff's threads many people made their own conclusions about me and what happened 2 months later?!

well...
about the weekend calls... in fact there could be plenty of reasons again..Gator, I don't know what his ex does and I assume that there are people who have parties on weekends but as for me I have to work on weekends.Sometimes I have to work, sometimes I don't but there are moments when I simply can't speak, speaking English in public places here, where I live attracts a lot of attention, so if I could I would try to make the phone call as short as possible or to discuss time of the call in advance...maybe to someone it would look like not being happy to hear his voice, I don't know, Most of women of my age don't spend their weekends at home, too, they go somewhere with their friends, or simply go shopping, I don't know if it's the truth or not, I would like to hear her opinion if possible to be able to advise.

[Daveman]

Davester,
All RW are or are not anything, agreed, but for our purposes here, just think "most" and it will be cool.
KenC

Ken, I certainly wouldn't try to argue the point with you, or others with far more experience at this than myself.  I know quite a bit about two RW's, a little less about a third, and the three of them are so completely different personality wise that really the only common ground they share is they are all from the FSU, they all have female body parts, and they were all sincerely looking serious relationships.  The fact that they are so different tells me I was not focused clearly on what I really want/need in a woman.  I think we need to be clear on what we really do want before we can get it.

Probably the point I was trying to make was lost in an ineffective delivery.

Here's the point: DKMM, maybe E was dishonest, and yes, that would absolutely be a deal breaker. BUT, don't focus only on that aspect of the situation. Take the time NOW while the memory is fresh in your mind.  Write down everything about this woman that you absolutely adore, what traits do you love about her? ... then conversely, write down everything you cannot tolerate about her.. what really chaps your ass? ... what gets on your nerves?... then walk away from your notes for a few weeks.  When there is a bit more distance, come back and analyze what you wrote.  You'll get a much for focused and vivid picture in your mind of what you need/want to find... that complete package.

There is a far greater learning experience to be had from this than merely honest vs dishonest.  He can get a much more clear and vivid picture of his future lady, and then hopefully go find her.

I hope this makes more sense...

Dave

Edit: ooops, forgot... write down also anything and everything positive and negative she said about you... doesn't matter if you believe it to be true or not at this point, just go with it.. when you come back later, you can get a clearer picture of how one person perceived you.. if you're honest with yourself, you'll be surprised how often you'll come back and say "yeah, I DID do that..." or whatever, and awareness itself can be curative. 

[Ranetka]

I presume DKMM got his ring back by now. I wonder when if ever E is going to get back her "three suitcases of household goods".

[KenC]

I presume DKMM got his ring back by now. I wonder when if ever E is going to get back her "three suitcases of household goods".

Ranetka,
If she returned the ring, DKMM should ship back her stuff immediately.
KenC

[Gator]

DKMM should return it anyway.  It would probably be easier to ship it rather than carry it with him on his next trip.  Besides, he does not need to be seeing E or have any reason to communicate with her.

Interesting that she sent her "household stuff" ahead of her arrival.  Very interesting!  You would think that she would do that only if she believed they would marry and stay. 

I now have a suitcase of my Moscow woman's stuff (books) in Florida, and will collect another in the DR at New Year's with photos, etc.   

[Ranetka]

Ranetka,
If she returned the ring, DKMM should ship back her stuff immediately.
KenC

Agree 100%.

Is it only me who finds asking "the next one" to collect engagement ring from ex-fiance rather ...  ehh distasteful?