The train came off the tracks

[jb]

OMG~!, William, I need to expand and rebuild my tinfoil hat, obviously you are reading my mind...  Good post.

[Photo Guy]

The saddest part of reading this story, is the general feeling I get that
you, DKMM, are willing to accept a ton of abuse in your life.
Please read William's post over and over again.

You have to learn to draw a line in the sand, when it comes to
important issues. What were you thinking when you bought her
a $600 coat? I mean this woman is not your wife and at that
point, barely your girlfriend. And also- why is she spending so
much on a coat for herself? What is her income level?

When she(or any woman) threw you a curve, that was when the
idea should've popped into your head, to take control because
it's the only right course for both of you: You tell her, 'Darling,
we are only here for 6 days. Our relationship is important to
both of us. Let's spend the next four or five days together,
to see if our relationship is salvageable. We can spend the 6th
day with your friend.'

If she's the dominant psycho type, that may be impossible to do,
but you still have to draw that line in the sand, to be in control
and to be the leader, which RW appreciate and expect.

When you lay down the law, be prepared to enjoy Istanbul
on your own, as an adventurous tourist. 

My guess is that she'd probably NOT allow you to lead, otherwise
she would've chosen a different guy.

Dump her. (because she has learned to dominate you and you probably
can't change in just a day or two) Enjoy the city, as BC suggested.

With your next gal, take the lead and keep it. Don't accept abuse.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Yeah, i agree, enough of abuse and violation! 

Enough of compromising values! There are indeed so many other women who won't have such problems. In the future don't waste your time on a woman who has even one big problem. This is not worth of your time, emotions and money.

I think the clue is to figure out if a woman who you correspond with is a good one, ready to move and is truly interested in you and is honest. The idea is to see it early, before you even make a first trip. Most of the men who need my help come to me when 'the train is off the tracks' or is getting there fast. And they want me to help them to fix it. Most of the time it is impossible to do because it is too far behind, too many misunderstandings, too much pain between the two. So all i can say is Sorry it didn't work out....

Dear men, please, be alert and wise from the beginning and ask me and others for help and guidance BEFORE the failure is inevitable. Looking through her letters I can determine and 'feel' if this or that is wrong or right... if this is worth keep writing letters to each other or meeting for the first time.

[Voyageur]

DKMM, forget her dude. There are many more decent women out there.  Don't settle, don't sell your self short. Learn from this and move on.

[Daveman]

What a strange story that just gets weirder..

Oh well, now you have your definitive answer.  To bad you had to travel half way around the world to get it.  Seems to me like this was more of a "Free trip to visit my friend" plot from the start.

Good luck in the future DKMM.. as others have said, learn about yourself and take the lessons with you.

Dave 

[KenC]

Jazzy,
It is called "self justification."
Main Entry: self-jus·ti·fi·ca·tion
Function: noun
Pronunciation: "self-"j&s-t&-f&-'kA-sh&n
: the act or an instance of making excuses for oneself

You see, Jazzy, guys like DKMM want so much to make things work, that no amount of logic or red flags can stop them from eventually hurting themselves.  They overlook lies, deceit, lack of affection, lack of commitment and all the warning signs and logic to jump into a marriage that is doomed from the start.  He makes excuse after excuse for his bad judgement and her bad behavior.

DKMM is "in love" with being in love with a RW.  Who the girl is has little to do with his fantasy.  He was predetermined to be in love when he bought the engagement ring before he even met her.  DKMM has spent a good amount of time with her and has come to know her but fails to understand that the reason one takes such actions is to find out if there are any flaws in the relationship.  He has found the flaws and yet persists in following through to marriage.  Hoping against hope that "all will be well."  It rarely does end well though.  Expect more drama, more disappointments and eventual failure because DKMM is in a total state of denial.
Main Entry: de·ni·al
Function: noun
Pronunciation: di-'nī(-&)l, de-
1 : refusal to satisfy a request or desire
2 a (1) : refusal to admit the truth or reality (as of a statement or charge) (2) : assertion that an allegation is false b : refusal to acknowledge a person or a thing : DISAVOWAL
3 : the opposing by the defendant of an allegation of the opposite party in a lawsuit
4 : SELF -denial
5 : negation in logic
6 : a psychological defense mechanism in which confrontation with a personal problem or with reality is avoided by denying the existence of the problem or reality

KenC

[tim 360]

DK, I honesty do hope you learned something from this "relationship" with E.  Learned something about women and about yourself.  It is really not an RW problem here;  there are hordes of AW's that would stomp all over you as bad as E did.  It is like you are asking for it.  Truth:  You probably set yourself up for this outcome. 

Some young intelligent men do have a tendency to "explain away" or rationalize a womans behaviour and to postulate reasons of why?  Maybe it was her childhood?  Or her mafia boyfriends?... or....Well the list of explantions can be endless.  It is futile.  I quit diagnosing some time ago in regard to erratic women.  But at some point even the smart young man (like you) must stop trying to figure out the "whys" and making excuses for the girl and deal with the reality of the "what is".  The reality is she treated you like schit and you kept coming back for more.  Duh.

The "what is" in your E relationship has been clear to quite a few here for some time although you had excuses to explain away her behaviour and it satisfied your sensibilities and ego.  Get real with this:  There are no excuses or explaining away her behaviour period.  This is a girl you should have walked away from quite some time ago and didn't and she mopped the floor with you.  Get over it.  With women look at the "what it is" and not what you might like it to be,   Good luck, tim360

[DKMM]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the responses.  I like to respond to posts in order, just my way of doing things:

Shadow: I really don't have the desire to "sample" any women here right now.  As for trust yes, that will be an issue as things were very well for us the first couple of trips together and the first months of our engagement were filled with love, joy and excitement from both of us.

AJ, ken filled in some things but yeah J has the ring.  Also, E wasn't my fiancee any more as I had her give up the ring as you can read on the earlier pages of this post.  We both took a step back from engagement already and were just here to see if things could be salvaged or if they should be buried completely.  My main thing was I just can't break up with her from a distance.  If its not going to work, I have to end all of it face to face, and that I do not regret.  It also removes any doubts about possible misunderstandings.  Anyways, dealing with her bad traits came along many months after we were together, as she was able to completely hide them the first 3 months after we first met.  If I lived in Moscow and could just drop her and pick up another I would have long ago but its not as easy from the other side of the world to just drop your fiancee at the first sign of something wrong (although NOW I do understand why I should have).  You are right, she is a self centered and very immature person.  That is why a sweet talking "10" is still single even though she is desperate to have a family.  I don't blame it on her culture at all.

I/O the show is over sorry to disappoint.  No, I haven't seen any attractive women here.  I have a minimum standard that is rather high because I can attract good looking girls... I had the luck to chose E over the other women I met in Russia.  The sad thing is she was about middle of the pack attractive wise of the ones I met there but I thought she had the best personality for me  .  Her friend lives with her Turkish boyfriend.  E was rather jealous her friend could meet a man and just go move with him without a visa to see how it works before they get married (that's what she wanted to do with me, even with the K1).

Maxxum:  I approached this in the wrong way for sure because I felt like I couldn't easily go back and meet more.  It would just take patience, something I need more of when looking around for a mate.  It "drug on" because the relationship was mostly great and fulfilling right up until about the middle of November.  While my gut told me before that there were problems, it wasn't that strong of a feeling until more recently (again, the origin of this thread).

Timothe: Yes it was my cheapest trip by far relating to RW, in fact I spent less than $1500 total for everything.

No WMGo that's not why she went on this trip to Turkey.  It was my idea to come here because I felt having her friend here would help if things went south (and it was).  She wanted to go somewhere alone and even was willing to stay in a 2 star in egypt had it been affordable for my airfare.  I'm really glad we didn't go somewhere alone.  And she paid for the coat if you read my post more carefully.  In fact she returned my xmas present so I can return it to the store.

PG: I don't accept abusive women, no way.  I'm not desperate, I had my pick of women when I went on my search trip in April.  Every girl I met wanted more of me, without exception.  I had to write dear jane letters to each except E.  But yeah you could say it was abusive behavior at times and I know how to spot it now from a mile away.  I really wasn't understanding this type of girl, I never experienced it before but now I get it.  I already said she paid for the coat, and she got it because they are much cheaper in turkey than back home and she was without a winter coat (the old one gave up its ghost).  Ask your RW about buying them in Turkey.  E's income is about $1500 a month take home.  Funny thing is one reason I chose her was because she was independent and I knew her desire for me was not born of poverty. 

I did tell her that very thing PG, even more firmly than you worded it.  But she is the dominant psycho type and did not accept my reasoning.  I drew the line and she said then do what you want to do and I will do what I want to.  I was ready to be alone at that point but I came here not to lay down the law but to see how this would end up.  If she wasn't willing to follow my lead then I already knew enough without having to make an issue of it.  So yes, your guess is 100% correct, she was not willing to allow me or any man to tell her what to do.  Probably why RM aren't her cup of tea anymore.

Nastya: da I will be more careful next time!  It was hard though because from the first email to E she was very interested in knowing me and about moving here.  I had 100's of hours of conversation with her that had zero warnings or doubts from her side from March till our first argument ever in August.  She always reassured me she could handle living in USA because she would have me and that's all she needed.  When I noticed it dropping off was what tipped me off there was a problem coming my way.  Its what happened 4 months into our engagement that showed a different side.  I can look back and see some flags that popped up earlier but even those were after we got engaged.  My first lesson is the oft repeated: "take time to get to know one before you get engaged."

The hard part is I did things right at the beginning picking the woman who was most genuinely into me.  It was after I was hooked on her that the bad things came out.  She realizes now I don't accept her ways and needs a man that will put up with her, or keep her in line.  She knows she is messed up and was hoping I would be able to handle it, but realizes I won't (I'm paraphrasing her words).

Tim, I would have never let an AW do this at all.  Looking back in hindsight, yeah it was like I was asking for it by allowing her to do what she wanted.  I should have never let it happen but it did and now I'm the better for experiencing it.  I see the "what is", that is why I came to Turkey to make the final decision in person.  I know why she has her ways, and it took me until the end to figure it out.  But it doesn't matter, I'm not the type of personality that can help a girl that has issues.  Just because I understand it doesn't mean I'm excusing it.  You are right, I deserve better.

I am glad to get home soon because all I have to do here doesn't get my mind off this and thinking about it all day and night isn't a fun way to spend a vacation.  But I sure am glad I came here because it is finally over.  And it sucks to have found a girl like this but now I won't let something like it happen again.  Oh, and no more divorced girls for me.

[Photo Guy]

DKMM wrote: '...Looking back in hindsight, yeah it was like I was asking for it by allowing her to do what she wanted.  I should have never let it happen but it did and now I'm the better for experiencing it...'

This sounds very 'passive' rather than dominant and that could be a problem for you in the future, allowing abuse to occur.

But hey, I don't know you that well- It's just what my gut is telling me
about you, after reading your story. If you 've had lots of women interested
in you, you should ask yourself why you chose HER?!  ie her '10' status?

[acrzybear]

[DKMM]

Yeah its always hard to get the full situation explained on here.

E asked me the same thing many times over our relationship.  She knew I was a good guy and always wanted to know why I chose her (she is a bit insecure).  I explained it before, this girl was the first I ever met that I wanted to marry.  Every girl I've dated since I was 20 has wanted to marry me, but E is the first I ever wanted to back.  As for the others in Russia, they were great but E really made my sparks fly.  She's a 10 looker and a very sweet personality, very intelligent and made me feel like the luckiest man on earth.  I had to wonder even then how this incredible girl was not snatched up already.  And she would say jokes like "well you know its later on when you get to know someone's real traits" and etc.

I think she could tell I was pulling back and was not going to put up with her and that's why she adopted the extreme defensive attitude displayed on this trip.  Had I made her feel like I would love her no matter what, she probably would have gone along with it, but there is no way I or any sane man would love a girl that has such a character.  

Her main problem is she has these moods that are very dark.  She gets distant and needs to be disarmed with jokes and an aloof attitude from her man that he knows she will come around again.  In other words, someone that can turn his feelings off because she turns hers off as well.  Well I know women get moody and it doesn't usually bother me, but with her she just gets worse then and keeps pushing it until I'm upset by her ways.  She can be that way for a whole night and gets it from her dad who used to do it for days on end to her mom.  Combined with a controlling demeanor and serious stubborness and you get a dysfunctional girl.  She warned me about all three traits of her personality months ago but I ignored them not believing it could be this bad.  I said no problem i can handle it no matter what I'll be her man and she was very happy at that.  Now I realize the depths of her issues and its obvious that I can/will not handle her ways.  Obvious to both of us.

[Jazzyclassy]

You see DKMM just forget her, stop communicating with her at all, you need to cut her off  just like that , stop all contact, that will help you

I told you many times who she is  you gotta finally respect yourself and be prepared for finding a good person, and also look inside yourself and understand what is there you do wrong

[DKMM]

Thank you Jazz I didn't listen to you and went ahead just to see how things would turn out.  I guess I was just too stubborn.  I should have let it go when I took back the ring and broke off the engagement.  I feel embarassed for letting this go on as long as it has, but I don't regret the experience.  Very nice to have people on here to help me bounce my thoughts off. 

What's funny is S from my April trip to Tver emailed me wanting to know if I was available (she is the one from my April TR who I was trying to decide between her and E... a smoking hotskova but not good enough english for me to pursue... crazy enough about me to call me 76 times when i spent 3 hours with Richard).  She likes to check in every few weeks waiting to see when I will be single again.  If she sent that a few days earlier it could have made this trip end better.  When I wrote her back telling her my situation she offered to call in sick, take a train to moscow and come to me.  That's the kind of girl I need, but I'm not about to rebound on her... I am not going to Russia for at least 3 months!

[Jazzyclassy]

Oi DKMM you  just need time to recover , stop thinking about starting next relations immediately, you need to go with the flow!

[Serebro]

What's funny is S from my April trip to Tver emailed me wanting to know if I was available (she is the one from my April TR who I was trying to decide between her and E... a smoking hotskova but not good enough english for me to pursue...

Why did you meet her if her English was bad for your?!

[timothe]

DKMM, if I was as young as you and had the same resources, I'd go to other places.  (and not necessarily poor countries, either)  I hear Brazilian women are very family oriented. 

[DKMM]

Well I just had a goodbye meeting with E.  It was kind of hard and I wasn't sure I wanted to see her again, but it was good to end on civil terms over coffee.  Its kind of weird to have a debriefing moment at the end of a failed relationship but it was made possible when it was obvious to both of us that we just didn't have anything left.  Better than just ending in an angry way.  We both wished each other luck.  E thinks I will do fine with the right RW.  I do think she will have problems finding a good guy to marry her, but I didn't say that.

timothe:  No way, I've already been down the road with Latin women.  Plus, Russia holds a special place in my heart and I feel a kinship with the people from there.  I've studied the history, the language and now after being with some I understand the culture and mentality a lot more.  Nothing else in life holds a candle to my experiences with RW.  I will try AW again but obviously like Jazzy said, I first will concentrate on getting my life back together.  Since E was never in USA it won't be too much of an adjustment upon returning.  And I saw this possibility for a couple months now so I was prepared for it.  When the time is right, I'll make my next move.

Serebro:  why did I meet S?  First of all, I didn't know about her english because the agency wrote her letters.  2nd, I didn't know it was such an issue until that trip to Russia where I met girls with poorer English than her.  3rd, I admit that I went mostly with her photos just because she was gorgeous.  It wasn't just her English that made me not pursue her.  She just wasn't the girl for me.  If E wasn't in the picture I would have made another trip with S, but I think I would not have ended up loving her.  I just feel like I never got to know her well because of her English and I have to know someone before I love them.  But then again, I don't think I knew E very well before I loved her (her English wasn't perfect either). 

E and I had a LOT of misunderstandings based on the language gap.  It went both ways and we got less patient over time.  We talked about what we both learned (although she claims to not want to find a foreigner again).  The first one was that you should not get engaged so quickly.  We should have built up more time learning about each other.  Love takes time to build, you can't create it.  If I waited another trip, things would have turned out differently.  Second is to not compromise so much.  Over time we both learned things about each other that we didn't like yet we just accepted them and moved on.  After a while the negative started outweighing the positive.  We should have figured it out earlier and we didn't.  Third is to take time to understand where someone is coming from, instead of assuming the bad thing that comes into your mind.  Russians and Americans come from different planets and you better be willing to patiently understand something before jumping to conclusions.  This comes easier if you both love each other...

I admit I rushed in like a fool, driven by a strong desire to get married and create a family.  She did as well for the same reasons.  I am not desperate as I know decent women who would want to marry me, but I do desire that perfect match for me.  So when I found someone who actually met my high criteria I dove right in with blind faith(its obvious when I read my TR from April/May).  It might have worked but it didn't.  Thanks for all the responses this is helping me a lot until I get home.

[Makkin]

Hi,

  At least you admit your mistakes and take a good trimming here on the boards. You seem to be a standup guy in many ways. Surely you have learned something and it seems youth will afford you another chance or three.

Yours,

Makkin

[Serebro]

DKMM, I am sure that Jazzy has a lot of beautiful friends 

[catzenmouse]

Thank you Jazz I didn't listen to you and went ahead just to see how things would turn out.  I guess I was just too stubborn.  I should have let it go when I took back the ring and broke off the engagement.  I feel embarassed for letting this go on as long as it has, but I don't regret the experience.  Very nice to have people on here to help me bounce my thoughts off.

How long ago did this start? 6 months? 8? A year? That whole time you've been bouncing your thoughts off RWD and have been given a pretty consistent message from the start. On the other hand the messages you have given back have been (IMO) very inconsistent and often contradictory.

You wanted to show us up. To prove that we were all wrong about you, about her, and about the relationship. Sorry dude but you've been in stupid thinking and acting mode for a long time and all I see is someone who needs to do a good bit of growing up mentally before they go back and inflict this stupid thinking on another unsuspecting girl.

Yup, we're all mean, nasty, miserable SOB's for telling you the truth all this time. Hopefully just one of those synapses will start firing and you'll let one or two of those clues that have been floating all around you take hold.

I really don't wish for bad things to happen to you and hope that the next time to venture forth you will be able to get it right. Unfortunately, from your history I don't have much hope of that happening.

FWIW,
 Ken

[LiveFromUkraine]

DKMM, I am sure that Jazzy has a lot of beautiful friends 

I thought you were single.   


Thomas

[DKMM]

Catz, no need to be a prick.  our problems started at the end of november.  I always had questions and less than good moments I shared on here, but for the 99% of the time from April till November it was great with her, and the trips I took in that time were the best times of my life.

A lot of what a few of you have been saying was BS from the start.  The people on here that accurately pointed out the things I should know were crowded out by an obnixious few that spewed false information.  Just because you correctly predicted failure doesn't mean the reasons you then presented were connected to reality.  since I had time to go back and read my previous threads about her, I'd say Gator consistently presented the truth about things at the time and should win a medal for this kind of thing.  But I have no interest in dragging out the past.

[Serebro]

I thought you were single.   


Thomas

Well, it was last year...
now there's new love in my heart.... :heartafire:
 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Well, it was last year...
now there's new love in my heart.... :heartafire:
 

 

Congrats Serebro.  That is fanstastic news.


Thomas

[catzenmouse]

That was being a prick huh? Yeah okay, whatever dude. It is YOU and reality that have to get acquainted sometime. Good luck with that.

Catz, no need to be a prick.  our problems started at the end of november.  I always had questions and less than good moments I shared on here, but for the 99% of the time from April till November it was great with her, and the trips I took in that time were the best times of my life.

A lot of what a few of you have been saying was BS from the start.  The people on here that accurately pointed out the things I should know were crowded out by an obnixious few that spewed false information.  Just because you correctly predicted failure doesn't mean the reasons you then presented were connected to reality.  since I had time to go back and read my previous threads about her, I'd say Gator consistently presented the truth about things at the time and should win a medal for this kind of thing.  But I have no interest in dragging out the past.