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Author Topic: Antiques in Russia  (Read 63159 times)

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Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2014, 06:01:26 PM »
Thank you for your efforts mA, her full name was Elisaveta Dimitrievna Deshayes so that D is probably her patronimic.

Not sure about that, it looks like after capital D is no more than another 4 letters (do you know correct spelling of her surname in russian?). 5th line which I said looks like name is more likely name of person she married if it was wedding gift.


Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2014, 06:13:22 PM »
(do you know correct spelling of her surname in russian?).
No, the only reference I have is on a document written in French (http://www.floriani.it/leonida-eng.htm) with her husband's curriculum.

I know they pronounced it DEGAY, with the usual transformation into G of the initial H of a foreign word - her family probably descended from Huguenots fled from France in the XVIIth century.

Quote
5th line which I said looks like name is more likely name of person she married if it was wedding gift.
If you mean the bottom line, I'd guess it's more likely the signature of the donor, I think it starts with Rud..., and her husband's name was Leonid.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 06:15:03 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #102 on: January 08, 2014, 06:29:59 PM »
I don't know what formulas the Russians used 130 years ago on marriage gifts, but I'd guess it could be something like:

- (Date?)
- To my dearest friend
- Elisaveta Dimitrievna
- On the occasion of her marriage
- My best wishes/congratulations
- (signed) The donor
- (Date?)
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Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #103 on: January 08, 2014, 06:51:15 PM »
No, the only reference I have is on a document written in French (http://www.floriani.it/leonida-eng.htm) with her husband's curriculum.

I know they pronounced it DEGAY, with the usual transformation into G of the initial H of a foreign word - her family probably descended from Huguenots fled from France in the XVIIth century.

Actually on the 3rd line where first word begins with Елис, second word begins with D, third letter in that second word seems to be x which in English is h, after that either one or two more letters. So it is more likely surname.

If you mean the bottom line, I'd guess it's more likely the signature of the donor, I think it starts with Rud..., and her husband's name was Leonid.
No, I mean line before it but there is definitely nothing that would match Леонид Павлович Алексеев. So there is a chance that is the name of donor. [Edit: but am I wrong to think first letter of the second word on that line is capital I (which doesn't exist in Russian language!)? I attached example of Ukrainian alphabet with marked letter that looks like the one in the message on icon)]

Last line could be something else (example something with religious meaning such as Храни Вас Бог, it is definitely not the one but something in that direction)

Edit: I sharpen photo a bit, it makes some letters more clear.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 09:13:18 PM by missAmeno »

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #104 on: January 09, 2014, 01:48:53 AM »
Miss A, you have good eyesight I think. Even with glasses I only see scant forms.  :)
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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #105 on: January 09, 2014, 06:49:46 AM »
Looking at the inscription under a strong oblique light, I was able to discern some more words and letters (red dots for unknowns):

1st line: (something ending in li) 1887 goda
2nd line: S. Peterburg.
3rd line: 2 words, Elisaveta? Degai?
4th line: Bla..slovani.?
5th line: 2 words, too faint and closely written to make out
6th line: 1 or 2 words, starting Ru.ano?

The date is consistent for the wedding: my granny was born 14th May 1890, and her elder sister 28th December 1888 (old calendar).

Zhenya, 8 y.o.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 07:22:25 AM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #106 on: January 09, 2014, 11:19:46 AM »
4th line: Bla..slovani.?

Благословение -  The Blessing?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 11:23:33 AM by missAmeno »

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #107 on: January 09, 2014, 11:38:20 AM »
3rd line: 2 words, Elisaveta? Degai?

Дегай?

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #108 on: January 09, 2014, 11:56:55 AM »
Дегай?
Looks like that, IINM.
Благословение -  The Blessing?
Possibly. Would it be an augural formula like Blessings?
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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #109 on: January 09, 2014, 12:05:30 PM »
Miss A, isn't that an old family name?

I'm thinking of the Russian statesman Павел Иванович Дегай from the Tsar's Imperial Court in the 1700s...


Sandro, the wedding connection might make sense as it was and is still a common tradition for the groom and bride to receive icons at the wedding ceremony or the reception thereafter. Often the groom receives an icon of Christ and the bride receives an icon featuring Mary holding the baby Jesus.

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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #110 on: January 09, 2014, 12:42:49 PM »
Miss A, isn't that an old family name? I'm thinking of the Russian statesman Павел Иванович Дегай from the Tsar's Imperial Court in the 1700s...
Mendy, he might a relative of my great-grandmother and her brother Aleksandr Dimitrievic (http://www.floriani.it/zioalex-eng.htm), who was also seriously involved at Court. Pavel's son was Aleksandr Pavlovich Degai (1822-1886), Actual Privy Councillor, Astrakhan governor (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Дегай,_Александр_Павлович).

I must now look for a Dimitri Degay to fill the gap :D.
Quote
Sandro, the wedding connection might make sense as it was and is still a common tradition for the groom and bride to receive icons at the wedding ceremony or the reception thereafter. Often the groom receives an icon of Christ and the bride receives an icon featuring Mary holding the baby Jesus.
OK, I think we've settled that it was indeed a genuine wedding gift as alleged ;D.
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Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2014, 01:26:33 PM »
Miss A, isn't that an old family name?

Yes, it is. This is what I managed to find (tho not sure if website is reliable enough to believe that info they are providing is correct):

Quote
Значение и история фамилии Дегай

Фамилия Дегай числится малораспространенной на территории России и стран ближнего зарубежья. В сохранившихся интересных древних бумагах жители с этой фамилией являлись знатными персонами из славянского тульского мещанства в XVIII-XIX в., имевщих определенную государеву привелегию. Древние корни фамилии можно обнаружить в перечне переписи Древней Руси в период Ивана Грозного. У государя хранился определенный список уважаемых и лучших фамилий, которые давались близким только в случае особых заслуг или поощрения. Поэтому эта фамилия пронесла свое неповторимое значение и является уникальной.
Написание фамилии латиницей: DEGAIY
http://www.onomastikon.ru/proishogdenie-familii-degaiy.htm

Quote
Meaning and history of surname Дегай

Surname Дегай is not very common on the territory of Russia and neighboring countries. In the surviving interesting ancient papers inhabitants with this surname were notable figures from Slavic Tula burgesses in XVIII-XIX c. , that had certain privilege from sovereign. The ancient roots of the name can be found in the census list of ancient Russia in the period of Ivan the Terrible.The sovereign kept a certain list of respected and best names that were given only in case of special merit or as promotion/encouraging. Therefore, this name has carried its own unique value and is unique.
Latin spelling of name: DEGAIY

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2014, 02:06:29 PM »
Often the groom receives an icon of Christ and the bride receives an icon featuring Mary holding the baby Jesus.

I believe it was tradition to give silver Icon of Jesus Christ called "God Almighty" [Господь Вседержитель] to groom and silver icon of Theotokos of Kazan (or also known as Our Lady of Kazan) [Казанская Богоматерь] to bride.




Sandro, from the script on the back of your icon it is obvious it is the one that was used by priest to bless newlyweds and their matrimonial life together. By tradition  these icons should remain with couple throughout their lives. Icons are reminder of the oath of loyalty and love that they gave to each other at the Cathedral. More likely as well icons were gift from parents.

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2014, 06:05:46 PM »
Yes, it is. This is what I managed to find (tho not sure if website is reliable enough to believe that info they are providing is correct):http://www.onomastikon.ru/proishogdenie-familii-degaiy.htm
Yes, I have some doubts about its historical accuracy:
Quote
Meaning and history of surname Дегай
Surname Дегай is not very common on the territory of Russia and neighboring countries. In the surviving interesting ancient papers inhabitants with this surname were notable figures from Slavic Tula burgesses in XVIII-XIX c. , that had certain privilege from sovereign. The ancient roots of the name can be found in the census list of ancient Russia in the period of Ivan the Terrible. The sovereign kept a certain list of respected and best names that were given only in case of special merit or as promotion/encouraging. Therefore, this name has carried its own unique value and is unique. Latin spelling of name: DEGAIY
The highlighted text appears in most other names I looked up there :-\, and from the undescored text it appears as if Ivan was responsible for assigning family names :o. Is that possible ::)?

My granny was rather positive about the French connection ;D, and I see no reason why the official document of my great-grandfather's career curriculum (http://www.floriani.it/leonida-eng.htm), although translated into French, should also transliterate Дегай into Deshayes:
Quote
14° Etat de famille: marié en premières noces avec M.lle Deshayes Elisabeth Dmitrievna, fille du Conseiller d'Etat. A deux filles; Elisabeth, née le 28 décembre 1888; Eugénie, née le 14 mai 1890. Mère et enfants sont de religion orthodoxe et vivent avec lui.
I fail to see how the translator, whoever he/she was, could have presumed to take such a fanciful liberty with the original Russian text. Therefore although similar-sounding, on reflection I now consider rather tenuous the possibility of a connection with the Дегай family.

Another strange thing I noticed when looking for ALEXEIEFF (Алексеев): absent although still common nowadays IINM, but it lists some to me strange variations like:

- Алеексеев
- Алексеевв
- Алекесеев

All with the same blah-blah about Ivan the Terrible.
 
« Last Edit: January 10, 2014, 08:18:17 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline ML

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #114 on: January 10, 2014, 06:45:11 PM »
I'll have to acquire a charcoal stick and some soft white paper for my rubbing . . . .

You EEtalians must be pretty hardy.  I think hand lotion would be better for rubbing.
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Offline BdHvA

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Re: Antiques in Russia
« Reply #115 on: September 14, 2018, 07:30:13 AM »
Not sure why this came as up as a thread when I logged in.

There are multiple auctions and dealers out side of Russia/Ukraine offering mostly authentic Slavic antiques. If any are brave or ignorant enough to shop in Russia the results will most likely be painful for said buyer. The art will be very mediocre, the antiques mostly reproductions and the Icons copies of copies of copies, antiqued. In the art world Icons are mostly likely the second most difficult field to judge, there are many forgeries. The first being Italian/Dutch old master drawings.

Some good advice is give upthread about export from the former Soviet Union.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 07:49:35 AM by BdHvA »
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