Times person of the year cover

[timothe]

Timothe,

You really need to begin trying to comprehend what folks write here instead of shoving words down our throats. If you don't understand, then ask before spouting.  You seem bent on waging another Iraq discussion here.

My remark upthread that you quoted and objected to is in reference to Putin managing to somehow maintain majority popular support whereas Bush has not.  I also asked you a question and tried to indicate that I was looking for views not related to political systems.

  Correct me if I'm wrong BC, but the media in Russia isn't exactly free yet, is it?  Years of favorable propaganda will prop up the opinion polls, don't you think?

Here's another question regarding your statement:

Maybe you want to identify the 'exaggeration(s)?' should we consider the entire statement as exaggeration solely for entertainment, your questions as well?  - just wanted to know so I can address any 'serious' parts and (chuck)le the rest.

btw.. who's arguing? ?

My exaggeration was only in using the word "excommunication".  That word was used out of context.  The rest of the statement about Putin was not an exagerration.  He uses his substantial power to silence his enemies.  Again, easy to maintain high popularity when it's done by force. (of will)

[timothe]

Poor Bush.  If he was not so fisically irresponsible a lot more people would like him.  Over all I like him, but I wish he was fisically more responsible ie. balanced budget.

All I know is that if the next Republican candidate for President does not believe in evolution I may vote for H, ah bury the thought! 

I agree Bruce.  After supporting Rudy for the last year, I've recently switched to Thompson because he is the only candidate that is concerned about the massive spending on entitlement programs.  Can you go to the caucas and vote for him for me please?   

[Bruce]

Politics. religion and women's weight - just best not to discuss.  We all have our opinions, and it is best to discuss without getting mad at each other and holding grudges etc. - but for some of us it is too hard.

Sorry, I still like Rudy, and second would have to be McCain.  Thompson just does not have it as far as I am concerned. 

[BC]

  Correct me if I'm wrong BC, but the media in Russia isn't exactly free yet, is it?  Years of favorable propaganda will prop up the opinion polls, don't you think?

First I think you should reflect on the definition of 'free press'.  Consider media moguls all over the world, each capable of and many that do push their own agenda.  I do not consider such institutions free press.  They are businesses that create and sell information with their own 'spin'.  Putin realized this and took whatever steps he saw fit.  Now totally free press is not a requirement for democracy.  Many 'Democratic' countries have more limited forms of freedom of the press, more or less saying that along with freedom to publicize ideas comes responsibility to all facets of the listening/watching/reading audience to present a balanced and neutral report. -neutral and balanced reporting rarely exists today.  Probably the most neutral reporting I have seen is on German television.

Consider Putin's actions regarding press and NGO's supported by foreign parties and governments as efforts to maintain a stable environment.

My exaggeration was only in using the word "excommunication".  That word was used out of context.  The rest of the statement about Putin was not an exagerration.  He uses his substantial power to silence his enemies.  Again, easy to maintain high popularity when it's done by force. (of will)

I'm not that familiar with the exact dealings with Kasparov and his fans, but considering that a permit for their demonstration was either not asked for or authorized, a couple days in the 'can' was probably reasonable in any country, including the US.  Lets say I get a couple hundred friends together, gather at the White House gates and start rattling the fence.. Think I would be treated less lightly?

Popularity cannot be forced upon a people. This should be quite clear by now. Regarding your other assertions or accusations, I suggest you read the interviews mentioned above.  Putin gave some pretty good answers so no need to repeat them here.

[BillyB]

Based on information that was known to be false at the time it was presented to them
 

Because of the precedent it would set? Timothe, let me ask you this...What kind of precedent was set when the administration decided to initiate hostilities against a sovereign nation based on known false information with no clearly defined objective and no exit strategy?

Further, we've been in Iraq longer than we were in the second world war, so to even imply that "the people" are just stupid gutless "cut and runners" is ludicrous.     
 

Jet, Both parties have members in it with security clearance at the highest level. They look at the same intelligence report but unfortunately some politicians blame Bush for voting the way they did. Lame. The intelligence wasn't false but old. During Clinton's presidency, live WMDs programs were found and Clinton had a policy of removing Saddam but was gun shy when he didn't have public support. Saddam's son in law escaped to Jordan and said he was in charge of the WMD program and told inspectors where to look. They found 17 tons of biological toxins growing to make anthrax.

The Iraq war was short compared to WW2 and American troops still occupy Germany and Japan for over 60 years. Why hasn't anyone blamed FDR for not having a clearly define objective an exit strategy?

Bruce, you will never see a balanced budget when a Republican is President unless you like to be taxed more. The problem isn't that we're not taxed enough, it's that the government spends too much and that includes pork projects by BOTH parties. It's not just the President's fault. Every Congressman and Senator are pushed by people in their districts and States to build something or bring in federal money for a federal project to create more jobs. In many ways, it's the people pushing their government to spend more, it's just that they only want the federal dollars to be spent where they live which benefits themselves.

All I know is that if an American President was doing what Putin is doing and journalists were dying at a rate higher than any other nation, the American President would be ripped apart by the citizens of the World. It seems people have different standards for different leaders.

[timothe]

First I think you should reflect on the definition of 'free press'.  Consider media moguls all over the world, each capable of and many that do push their own agenda.  I do not consider such institutions free press.  They are businesses that create and sell information with their own 'spin'.  Putin realized this and took whatever steps he saw fit.  Now totally free press is not a requirement for democracy.  Many 'Democratic' countries have more limited forms of freedom of the press, more or less saying that along with freedom to publicize ideas comes responsibility to all facets of the listening/watching/reading audience to present a balanced and neutral report. -neutral and balanced reporting rarely exists today.  Probably the most neutral reporting I have seen is on German television.

Consider Putin's actions regarding press and NGO's supported by foreign parties and governments as efforts to maintain a stable environment.

Thank you for the explanation, BC.  But remember, it was you that compared Putin's popularity favorably to Bush's and then used that information to back up your argument that Putin is more clever and interesting. 

It doesn't really matter why Putin controls the press and suppresses his enemies, the fact of the matter is there is a huge correllation between what the press puts out and what the public believes.  You simply cannot fairly compare Bush to Putin based on popularity.  It is an apples to oranges argument.

The US was largely united in WWII because the press was a willing ally to the propaganda the US military kicked out.  I've watched those old films before and they are kinda funny how the military was propping up various leaders in WWII.  That was 1944. 

In 2007, the Russian media still does that.  Good?  I don't know.  As bad as the media is here against anything conservative, I'd still rather have the freedom of speech and the liberal media than have media run by the government.   

[Jet]

I challenge the accuracy of this statement.  Who knew the intelligence was false?

 

Jet, Both parties have members in it with security clearance at the highest level. They look at the same intelligence report but unfortunately some politicians blame Bush for voting the way they did. Lame. The intelligence wasn't false but old.

Two words boys: "Yellow Cake"

Bin Laden determined Iraq to be the central front in the war on terror and told his minions to hang in there because America would leave Iraq soon.

Iraq was NOT a hotbed for terrorism before the US showed up. Terrorism was a direct response to US aggression.

[BC]

Thank you for the explanation, BC.  But remember, it was you that compared Putin's popularity favorably to Bush's and then used that information to back up your argument that Putin is more clever and interesting. 

I did that? hmm.. In other words my opinion would not be the same if polls regarding Putin's perceived performance etc were not favorable? -naa.. I'm not that 'wishy washy'..  I think he is very intelligent and has the ability to think before opening his mouth.  He can speak German and I assume English fairly well and has lived outside his country for an extended period thus more likely to understand the existence of different cultures and mentalities.  Most of all I enjoy his no BS stance.  A man that can convey his thoughts (and even humor) with few words. Think chess vs checkers. 

It doesn't really matter why Putin controls the press and suppresses his enemies, the fact of the matter is there is a huge correllation between what the press puts out and what the public believes.  You simply cannot fairly compare Bush to Putin based on popularity.  It is an apples to oranges argument.

On any particular day I watch and read news sources from several countries.  Russian, Italian, German and US.  Watching RU news almost daily I have found no great disparity in content.  You really think that the RU population is ignorant, relying totally on government news sources?  The days USSR jammed VOA and other western news sources are long gone.

The US was largely united in WWII because the press was a willing ally to the propaganda the US military kicked out.  I've watched those old films before and they are kinda funny how the military was propping up various leaders in WWII.  That was 1944.

In 2007, the Russian media still does that.  Good?  I don't know.  As bad as the media is here against anything conservative, I'd still rather have the freedom of speech and the liberal media than have media run by the government.   

You think that Bush does not employ methods of utilizing the media as best as possible for his purposes?  Wake up..  One example.. Have you ever watched White House briefings where the President takes questions from the reporters present?  You really think he chooses reporters randomly to ask questions?  Well surprise.. he is well briefed before the briefing as to who he should pick and knows the general questions that will be asked.  Yes, occasionally he will pick on a reporter at the back of the room.  Ever notice that the reporter 'picked' is often not able to correctly verbalize his/her question and how often the answer is a simple brush off?  It is a show.

Why is it that most American news sources can be classified with their political alignment?  Doesn't this puzzle you?  To me it seems that there is something wrong when one news 'happening' is reported quite differently depending on the stations political alignment.  The contrast is.. well.. like black and white.  This leaves the public in a position of simply 'tuning in' to what they want to believe instead of looking at the facts and forming their own opinions.

Reporting facts is quite simple.. but unfortunately does not sell advertising space.

[Jet]

You think that Bush does not employ methods of utilizing the media as best as possible for his purposes?  Wake up..  One example..

Another example... The judiciary is currently moving ahead with articles of impeachment against Dick Cheney. Do you find it at all curious that this has gotten *zero* airtime on any of the major network news sources?

[BillyB]

Another example... The judiciary is currently moving ahead with articles of impeachment against Dick Cheney. Do you find it at all curious that this has gotten *zero* airtime on any of the major network news sources?

Who's saying it hasn't been reported, some radio talk show? Quick google search showed the major networks covering this story. Many networks such as Fox reported this in April 2007. Below is a Fox article and CNN interview with Representative Dennis Kucinich who introduced the articles of impeachment on Dick. Keep in mind, Dennis has admitted to seeing UFOs and believes in the 9/11 conspiracy that the US government/Dick Cheney is the architect for 9/11. If the charges prove to be true, it will get more air time for sure otherwise it will die if the charges are a political move by Dennis simply to hurt Dick. I think there are better things Dennis could do with Dick.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268201,00.html

http://www.strmz.com/Clip8078

[Jet]

Who's saying it hasn't been reported, some radio talk show? Quick google search showed the major networks covering this story. Many networks such as Fox reported this in April 2007. Below is a Fox article and CNN interview with Representative Dennis Kucinich who introduced the articles of impeachment on Dick. Keep in mind, Dennis has admitted to seeing UFOs and believes in the 9/11 conspiracy that the US government/Dick Cheney is the architect for 9/11. If the charges prove to be true, it will get more air time for sure otherwise it will die if the charges are a political move by Dennis simply to hurt Dick. I think there are better things Dennis could do with Dick.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268201,00.html

http://www.strmz.com/Clip8078

No Billy, not the April '07 report, this one:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,308738,00.html
The vote was November 2nd and this Fox story put out a WEEK later is the only reference I saw from a major news outlet in the first 10 pages on Google. I caught it on c-span (probably the most exciting 2 hours of c-span ever) and was waiting to see how the networks would spin it on the evening of November 2nd - not a word from Fox/ABC/NBC/CBS/CNN. A bit surprising with 194 republican votes to move forward.

[BillyB]

Jet, if something significant materializes, all media will cover the story including international media. How are they to hide the fact if a Vice President loses his job? I find it strange Dennis is going after Dick  for going to war in Iraq instead of Bush. Sounds personal.

[WmGO]

1. And his life experiences and achievements far surpass Putin's. 

2.It is equally unbecoming for an American to insult the current American president on an international forum.

1. Only in an imaginary cheerleader world.  

2. Referring to one person as more intelligent and more interesting than
another person is not an insult. It is just an observation. As far as that
goes, Dick Cheney is clearly more intelligent and arguably more
interesting than Bush. That is also not an insult - just an observation of fact (intelligence) and opinion (interesting). 

Now, let us take a look at this: Putin the Solovichi Autocrat with Blood on His Hands has virtually single handedly put Russia back on the map and brought order and stability to his country.

Bush the Decider has proven himself to be Bush the Betrayer of the Conservative Cause: he has doubled the national debt, spent like a drunken sailor greatly expanding the size and scope of the federal govt. in a way that would make even LBJ blush, refused to protect the southern border or enforce immigration laws because he is a Big Business Globalist, he has been busily working for North American Union vis a vis the "Security and Prosperity" agreement with Canada and Mexico (an extension of NAFTA), and has endorsed the United Nations proposed treaty on the Seas that would give the U. N. ownership and control of over 70% of the earth's oceans and which every previous president vehemenently opposed. 

 


 

[AnastassiaAsh]

If Bush could serve 8 more years I would be very happy.  Last 8 years have been great for everyone I am personal friends with.

Me too!

And Putin is doing a good job! My mom actually showed me Time yesterday with his picture and a big article. She read it and agreed with almost everything that the author mentions.

[Christian]

1. Only in an imaginary cheerleader world.  

2. Referring to one person as more intelligent and more interesting than
another person is not an insult. It is just an observation. As far as that
goes, Dick Cheney is clearly more intelligent and arguably more
interesting than Bush. That is also not an insult - just an observation of fact (intelligence) and opinion (interesting). 

Now, let us take a look at this: Putin the Solovichi Autocrat with Blood on His Hands has virtually single handedly put Russia back on the map and brought order and stability to his country.

Bush the Decider has proven himself to be Bush the Betrayer of the Conservative Cause: he has doubled the national debt, spent like a drunken sailor greatly expanding the size and scope of the federal govt. in a way that would make even LBJ blush, refused to protect the southern border or enforce immigration laws because he is a Big Business Globalist, he has been busily working for North American Union vis a vis the "Security and Prosperity" agreement with Canada and Mexico (an extension of NAFTA), and has endorsed the United Nations proposed treaty on the Seas that would give the U. N. ownership and control of over 70% of the earth's oceans and which every previous president vehemenently opposed. 

 


 

Yes, but circumstances have contributed to our own financial deliencency.  Spending like there's no tomorrow; actual and actualized terrorist threats here and abroad; living like somebody owes you something;  foolish credit lines; image over substance; skeerd in reality, "ain't skeerd" in appearance.

If Bush is Stahlin and the people the socialist mice, then what Gorbachov and Putin have reversed in Russia and brought her back from the brink could in fact forewarn that America too could be brought to boarderline third world levels - far beyond the consequences of the late 1920's.

But Russia, England, Germany and even lame America see the handwritting on the wall.  They are selling debt and trimming the fat - but for how long.  Who are we trying to impress?  Who are we trying to keep up with?

Go to the soup kitchen all those who don't believe that Neman Marcus is not a euphomesum (sic?!) for needless markup.

But alas, what?  "We've learned to burn our corn; now you learn how to eat your oil."

Christian