Theoretical Child Question

[Bruce]

If a baby is born in the USA to a man married to a Russian women:

     A:  Is it possible for the child to be both a USA and Russian citizen?

     B:  How would one obtain Russian citizenship for the baby?

     C:  If the mother were to / want to travel to Russia prior to adjustment of status, how would the advanced parole documents treat the baby?  Would the baby need an advanced parole document as well?   Would the less than one year old infant need to get a passport as well?

     I figure some of you have already broached all of the above topics and some of the rest of you are so well read on the above topics you'll know the answers. 

Thanks,

Bruce

[jb]

Bruce,

I'm probably wrong about many of the finer points of law that affect your question, but the basic answer is:

A child born in the USA is an American in the eyes of both the US and the Russian governments, even if the mother is still a Russian citizen.  If the infant travels to Russia, he/she needs documentation, i.e., a passport and a visa.

If the mother and father ever divorced and she wanted to move back to Russia with the baby it is possible for her to get the child registered as a Russian citizen for residence purposes. However, in the eyes of the US government, the kid will always be an American since an infant child cannot renounce citizenship, and no one, not even a parent, can do that for you.

[BC]

A Yes
B Contact the RU consulate in country of birth
C I dunno..

Actually C should be no problem with a valid US passport.

[corncrowe]

I was born in the UK to American parents.  England recognizes me as a citizen of the UK because of my birth on British soil.  America recognizes me as an American because my parents were Americans.  I hold two passports. 

Question answered?

Jon

[jb]

Uhhhh, not quite the same, Jon.  

This baby is to be born in the US to an American citizen father and an immigrating Russian mother.  The child will have no physical or political ties to Russia, therefore Russia won't/can't claim the child as a citizen.

This baby will just have to fly with the blue passport and stand in line for a visitors visa just like the rest of us.

[BC]

Ours born outside RU to two immigrants, besides already being issued a US and a EU passport was included in the mothers passport (at the RU consulate) and does not need to stand in line or require a visa either way. Being included in mothers passport allows easy entry to RU and the EU passport easy return. Two trips so far and not one question asked either way.

The RU embassy here issued something similar to a US 'Report of Birth Abroad' document for RU propiska (granted) and citizenship application based on birth to a RU mother applied for in RU (can take a little time and a bunch of documents, maybe a 'fee').

[Elen]

статья 12 Закона о гражданстве РФ

RF nationality law ch.12

 Ребенок приобретает гражданство � оссии с момента рождения, если на день его рождения: ( A child gets Russian citizenship by birth if to bithday she/he has:)

         если оба его родителя или единственный его родитель имеют гражданство � оссии независимо от места рождения ребенка, (both parents  or the only one parent are Russian citizens. A place of child's birth does not matter)

         либо, если один из его родителей имеет гражданство � оссии, а другой родитель является лицом без гражданства или признан безвестно отсутствующим, либо место его нахождения неизвестно. ( one of parents is Russian citizen, the second one has no one's  citizenship or he(she) was declared as "untraceable" and his(jer) location is unknow)

         Российское гражданство оформляется детям и недееспособным лицам, являющимися иностранными гражданами и лицами без гражданства, если:

(Russian citizenship is processed for children and incapable persons who have citizenship of another country and for persons without any citizenship if:)

         а) один из родителей ребенка имеет гражданство � оссии. При этом гражданство оформляется по заявлению этого родителя и при наличии согласия другого родителя на приобретение ребенком гражданства;

One of the parents has Russian citizenship. In this case Russian citizenship for the child is processed by handing in an application by Russian parent in the presence of mutual consent of second parent

         б) если единственный родитель ребенка имеет гражданство � оссийской Федерации, при этом требуется заявление родителя;

If the only one parent has Russian citizenship, application of this parent is required

         в) если опекун или попечитель ребенка или недееспособного лица имеют гражданство � оссии.

        

[BC]

Good to see you Elen!

Yes mutual consent was required and had to be signed in the presence of the RU Consul.

[Elen]

Hello, boys;) It's pleasure to know you are glad to seem me.

About Russian citizenship. Let keep in your minds that in case with boys they will be obligated to serve Russian army It would be hard for them to visit Russia from 18 ages till 27 (if I remember correctly)

[BC]

Elen,

Yes correct. Will be something to address in 18 years or so.. maybe things will change by then. Who knows.. I might even be there

[Elen]

I know that till now there is no even slight hint that Russia will be able to have professional army in foreseeable future so most probably liability for military service in Russia will be a prospect for your "american" boys:P if they cross Russian boards after 18 ages Though there is one way to escape Russian Army - to serve some foriegner army. So it will be up to you - to stay far from Russia till boy become 27 years old or to serve your own army

[Bruce]

Elen / all, appreciate your insights concerning this matter.  By 19 years or greater from now a theoretical boy born abroad in the USA to a Russian mother may face a totally new set of requirements.  How about a little girl?  I am sure they are not obligated for military service, but are they obligated for other service?

[Elen]

Women in Russia have only one obligation - to bear Russian males:D but that's not a case for your little girl

If seriously I think in case with a girl Russian citizenship will not give any "troubles" but may be even some benefits ( in case if she'd deside to get Univercity education in Russia for example)


PS we speak about children whose parents desided to get Russian citizenship for them but not about children who just were born to Russian women married to foriegner husbands

[jb]

Elen wrote;

so most probably liability for military service in Russia will be a prospect for your "american" boys if they cross Russian boards (borders?) after 18 ages

I beg to differ with you Elen, but my Russian born step-son made several trips back to Russia during the times when he was between the ages of 18-27 and he was not automatically drafted into the Russian military.  I don't think he was ever even questioned about it.  

He was, at the time, enrolled as a student at the University of Utah and had the documents to prove it, but he did have to return to re-new his International passport so he was in contact with the Russian government and not hiding from them.  I don't know all the details, but he came and went without a problem.

[Elen]

Your step son was lucky I don't know too much about how he dealed with Russian embassy I just  tell you how it 's wrote in our laws - if boy is Russian citizen he must deal with Russian Army And our военкоматы(military registration and enlistment office) do have a plenty tricks for catching conscripts  during seasons of hunting at them ( in spring and autumn) All will depend at enthusiasm of men from a draft board

Though there are many exceptions to our rules I tell you only about rules Exeptions to them you should find by yourselves


PS They do demand a document from voenkomat when you want to get an international passport 

 

[jb]

PS They do demand a document from voenkomat

I'm not familiar with that term.

In any case, we've tip-toed all around the question of dual citizenship for an American born child.  Regardless of who the parents are, I say that it's going to be difficult to get this done.  Now if both parents were Russian nationals here on tourist or work visas it would be a piece of cake, but that is not the case.  The "Theoretical Child" is going to be an American, this will be double hard to do if the mother has, in the meanwhile, acquired a green card and holds permanent US residence.  You must remember, while it does happen, neither Russia or the USA recognize dual citizenship. In the eyes of the governments you must be one or the other, either fish or fowl, not both.

This question was discussed to death over on the RWA and the concensus there was that an American born child of an AW/RW marriage, needed a US passport and a visa to travel back to meet babuska.  That way there would be no question of the legality of bringing the child back to the USA.

[Elen]

I posted for you a chapter from Russian law about citizenship. It's possible to get it for a child if mother has it. Now let post your laws what 'd happen to that child who gets Russian citizenship. 

PS voenkomat is military commissariat which deals with draftees

 

[jb]

Elen,

The truth of it is, I don't know.  I just know that a child born in America is, according to the American mentality, an American.  I also know that Russia recognizes that American citizenship of the child.  Since neither country likes the idea of dual citizenship, it might be tougher than you think.

[Elen]

Well the only one way is to try to do that according the law and see what you'd get

[jb]

Well the only one way is to try to do that according the law and see what you'd get

Yeah,,, but,, you might just end up with a child who's birthright is questionable, and have some trouble bringing the baby home after the visit to see babuska.

I doubt Bruce would be willing to have his "Theoretical" kid be a test case.  Better to just apply for the passport and not have a question mark hanging over the whole deal.

[BC]

jb,

The dual or even more citizenship scenario is actually quite easy.  Of course get the child a US passport, then apply for RU citizenship after inclusion in the mothers passport and appropriate documents prepared at the consulate.

Although the US may not like or encourage dual citizenship they have lightened up especially for those 'born into' these situations.

Ours has 3. My other kids and myself have 2.

When granting citizenship the countries do not talk to each other and really do not care.

Only restriction I know of is that if you are a dual citizen you must use your US passport to enter the US.

It's all simple paperwork and fees.

[mischief]

The dual or even more citizenship scenario is actually quite easy. Of course get the child a US passport, then apply for RU citizenship after inclusion in the mothers passport and appropriate documents prepared at the consulate.

Although the US may not like or encourage dual citizenship they have lightened up especially for those 'born into' these situations.

Only restriction I know of is that if you are a dual citizen you must use your US passport to enter the US.

It's all simple paperwork and fees.

 

I was about to write your first line... 

I think if you have a girl, to obtain russian citizenship is a good way to escape all visa hassles...

if you have a boy, it might be more complicated... it's true about military service, besides if any criminal charges appear on the territory of Russia he will be treated as a russian citizen (which might be not pretty!) and a child with two citizenship can not be a president of the US (for ambitious parents like myself )...

[Vanilla]

Hi everybody)
I'd like to answer the questions according to my own experience.
I have 2 children (one of them is 1 month old:D). I am Russian citizen. My children are both - US & Russian citizens. When we travel to Russia we need for kids - US passports for each of them & Russian passports (in my case their datas are in my Russian passport).
Obtaining Russian citizenship is not that hard - check the website of Russian Embassy. But having your children signed in in Russian passport will give you many advantages. They can travel to/from Russia & USA without visas. In USA they will be US Citizen, in Russia - Russsian citizens.
Personally me, I had a lot of problems, when I was getting a visa to Russia for my 3yo. Embassy will not give a visa to US minor, whose mother is Russian. They told me - either you put your child in your passport, or his father has to obtain visa together with the boy. My husband couldn't go to Russia with us, but we had to get 2 visas, so my son can fly. It was a disaster! But not anymore! I am getting my newborn's docs straight right now.

[Bruce]

Dual Nationality
The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy.Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.

A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.

Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct.The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person's allegiance.

However, dual nationals owe allegiance to both the United States and the foreign country. They are required to obey the laws of both countries. Either country has the right to enforce its laws, particularly if the person later travels there.Most U.S. citizens, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. citizenship.Most countries permit a person to renounce or otherwise lose citizenship.

Information on losing foreign citizenship can be obtained from the foreign country's embassy and consulates in the United States. Americans can renounce U.S. citizenship in the proper form at U.S. embassies and consulates abroad.

The above was taken from:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html

USA passport for our daughter is theoretically easy, snap some passport photos, fill out a form, attach a birth certificate, go to a post office and in eight weeks maximum your child's passport should arrive in the mail. 

To get a Russian passport for our daughter is a bit more complicated but doable.  Sometime next year we will try for both.

[al-c]

As for the American citizenship question, that is easy.  The 15th Amendment to the United States Constitution reads, in relevant part:  "All persons born . . .  in the United States are citizens of the United States ".  This citizenship cannot be renounced by him or by anyone on his behalf until he is 18.

As for the Russian citizenship question, it seems from the posts here by knowledgeable folk that there is a way for him to claim his "right" to a Russian citizenship, but why do it?  It seems to be more of a liability than anything else.  Why subject him to even a possibility of military conscription?  It is easy enough for American citizens to visit there.  Just get him the blue passport and the visa.  His U.S. citizen parent can get one for him at any time.