Bringing children of fiancee here to USA without fathers permission

[mark30378]

Does anyone have any information on this subject. I have my fiancee in Russia and she has a 7 year old little boy. There is a form they have there that the father must sign to allow the child to leave the country. If her x-husband will not agree to sign this document what are our options and has anyone ever went through such situation. She lives in Saratov and the child lives with her and has since she was divorced a little more than 3 years ago.
Thanks

[Gator]

In this same discussion group, there is this current thread:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=6417.0

I believe there is another thread elsewhere.  Perhaps a search of the archives will reveal more.

[catzenmouse]

Bottom line is: If they (USCIS or the border entry folks) ask for it and you don't have it then the child will be denied entry.

Much, much, much better to have it and not need it. We were not asked but do have it so if they ask on any future occasion we're covered.

Don't know the specifics (of course) of your situation but do what you have to do to get the document.

Ken

[mark30378]

I am anw will try to have it but I was just wanting to know if he is difficult and will not sign then what ar emy options? Can we go to some kind of court to get it over ruled or will a Russian lawyer be able to get by this? We were thinking of one option of the child staying with her parents in another city and she will come here alone and we will make a document or petition for the child to be with her. Is this something that may be possible as a last resort?
She has a sister who lives here but is not yet a citizen and we were thinking of telling him that her sister is going to make this visa for her and her son to come here because she thinks if she tells him she wants him to sign this paper so that she can come here to get married to another man he will be offensive and not sign it. WHat are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks

[catzenmouse]

I am anw will try to have it but I was just wanting to know if he is difficult and will not sign then what ar emy options? Can we go to some kind of court to get it over ruled or will a Russian lawyer be able to get by this? We were thinking of one option of the child staying with her parents in another city and she will come here alone and we will make a document or petition for the child to be with her. Is this something that may be possible as a last resort?

She can take him to court there and petition for sole custody. Best to have her talk to a lawyer there to get a better grasp of her options.

She has a sister who lives here but is not yet a citizen and we were thinking of telling him that her sister is going to make this visa for her and her son to come here because she thinks if she tells him she wants him to sign this paper so that she can come here to get married to another man he will be offensive and not sign it. WHat are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks

Only issue with this (that I can think of offhand) is that if he finds out that he signed the document based on a deception he can petition the court for custody. If he wins (which he probably would since the lady and child would most likely not be there for the hearing) then if the child goes back to Russia they may not be allowed to leave again.
 
Best seek some legal advice and try to work it out with the father.

[groovlstk]

I am anw will try to have it but I was just wanting to know if he is difficult and will not sign then what ar emy options? Can we go to some kind of court to get it over ruled or will a Russian lawyer be able to get by this? We were thinking of one option of the child staying with her parents in another city and she will come here alone and we will make a document or petition for the child to be with her. Is this something that may be possible as a last resort?
She has a sister who lives here but is not yet a citizen and we were thinking of telling him that her sister is going to make this visa for her and her son to come here because she thinks if she tells him she wants him to sign this paper so that she can come here to get married to another man he will be offensive and not sign it. WHat are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks

This smells bad. There surely are situations where the father could care less about his child or when he may try to extort some $$ from you in exchange for his signature, but how can you in good conscience plot to steal his child????

Where are the men's rights idjits, or do does a Russian father's rights not count when his wife has an opportunity to move to the land of milk and honey? 

[BillyB]

I am anw will try to have it but I was just wanting to know if he is difficult and will not sign then what ar emy options?

I don't think you have much options except he does or does not give his consent. If he has not been paying child support and is an absent father, your wife may have a chance in winning a court decision to getting to take the child with her without her ex's consent since the court will have no faith that the father will take care of the child on his own. She really needs to talk to an attorney in Russia.

You do not know yet if the ex will be difficult. YOU should focus your energy into having a sit down, meaningful, man to man talk about wanting to marry his ex and you'll provide a good life for his child, you will make sure the child will always remember and respect him, you will let the child call him often and reassure him he will see his child again.

[mark30378]

You are correct and I may be worrying for nothing. I will wait and see how things come out after she asks him to sign. He does not speak english so it would be difficult for me to really speak to him. Hopefully it will just work out. Thank you for the help and I will post how the outcome is.

[mark30378]

This smells bad. There surely are situations where the father could care less about his child or when he may try to extort some $$ from you in exchange for his signature, but how can you in good conscience plot to steal his child????

Where are the men's rights idjits, or do does a Russian father's rights not count when his wife has an opportunity to move to the land of milk and honey? 

In this case the father does not care for the child but we believe will try to be difficult. I am not plotting to steal his child, it will always be his child. He has rights and he also has the right to take care of this child which he does not. He has the right not to even buy him a Christmas present which he didnt. He has the right to not buy for him any clothes which he does not. And many other necessities the child needs which the mother needs to pay for everything alone. He has the right to help pay for the expenses which he does not but yet he has a new computer and screen television that he allows the child to come and watch. All men I believe have rights to their children but also they should earn the right to keep these "rights". In this case he has not and for him to just be difficult and keep the child in the current circumstance because he is in this state of mind should not be possible. I do not know as of yet, he may just sign these papers and do the correct thing so as the child wil not grow up in poverty and live as he and most Russians must live now. If he was really caring for the child he would want for his son to have the opportunity to have a good education and nourishment and the support of a loving family. We will see, but I am not plotting to steal anything. If the father had earned these rights then I am sure that I would not be speaking to this woman now.

[wxman]

Mark,

I'm not sure how the US embassy in Russia handles it, but The US embassy in Ukraine requires one of the following, a notarized letter of consent from the father, proof that the father is dead, or proof that the woman has a sole custody of the child. Without one of the previous, the child will not get a visa, and thus could not enter the US. Basically, the US embassy in each country will enforce whatever local laws that are in effect for children leaving the country with one parent. However, if the child is 16 or older, the child no longer needs the consent of the other parent.

[BillyB]

He does not speak english so it would be difficult for me to really speak to him.

Hire a quality interpreter. Do not be cheap about it. You've got a shot to hit a home run that can be life life altering for all involved or you can strike out and go home empty handed. When you meet him, dismiss the disgust you have for him and treat him with respect. He may be a bad father but has something you want and you should be very thankful if he does let you have your way. It's your time to shine and be a man your future wife can respect. Good luck and let us know if it works out.

[William3rd]

In this case the father does not care for the child . . .  . but yet he has a new computer and screen television that he allows the child to come and watch.

He VISITS with his child. I am sure you didnt mean to reveal that but. . .  he visits. So he is interested in his child. He hasnt moved to the other end of the country.

Your fiancee needs to reach an agreement with him concerning the terms if he will not sign off or go to Court for a custody order.

[Jet]

You do not know yet if the ex will be difficult. YOU should focus your energy into having a sit down, meaningful, man to man talk about wanting to marry his ex and you'll provide a good life for his child, you will make sure the child will always remember and respect him, you will let the child call him often and reassure him he will see his child again.
 
Hire a quality interpreter. Do not be cheap about it. You've got a shot to hit a home run that can be life life altering for all involved or you can strike out and go home empty handed. When you meet him, dismiss the disgust you have for him and treat him with respect.

Having personally gone through the situation where the Father DID NOT want to give permission (and it was not a matter of looking for a payoff, but a philosophical objection) I cannot overstate enough:
THIS IS A REALLY REALLY BAD IDEA!!!
Let her handle it, but be emphatic that she does it in a SAFE place (like in her parents home, with them present). This is a very slippery slope and you have to understand that the Ex still has some power over her. They were married once, so he surely knows how to "push her buttons". If both of you are dedicated to this, and it sounds like you are, get it over with early. Time will be on your side. The further away the prospective departure date is, the better. Lil got her Ex to make out the permission, but it took the better part of a year for him to cool off, and it is not as simple as just having him sign a document in front of a notary, it will take several hours to complete.

Also, I'd strongly advise against the whole "better life" argument, it will likely blow up in your face. I know, it blew up in mine.

[Gator]

Jet, great post.  Perfect advice.

[BillyB]

Jet, a poster once said he had success with a man to man talk with the child's father. The Russian man was able to realize the man to be in charge of his child was a good man. I certainly would never sign papers to have my child leave with a man I never met. I would need to look him in the eye and listen to what he has to say and I better like it otherwise I'd never sign. If I ever had a daughter, I certainly would like to speak to the man who'd want to date her.

Every man put in this situation could react different and they may possess different relations with their ex. Some bitter, some neutral, and some friendly. Who knows how the ex will react? He may explode or he may gather a new respect for Mark after Mark eases his uncertainties. Too much at stake here and better to try and fail than not trying and never knowing what could've been. Options should not be taken off the table and if the Mark's fiancee alone can't convince the her ex, Mark should be willing to step up to the plate.

I agree that one should never talk down another by saying he'd give his child a better life. Choose words carefully but the message MUST be conveyed that the child will be taken care and in good hands if the child's father cares any for his child.

[catzenmouse]

I believe that was Vaughn that you mention.

IIRC the situation was not confrontational between the wife and the ex and that the child (daughter) had a good relationship with the father. The father also helped out with the daughters return when the powers that be did not want to accept her paperwork at the airport coming back to the US.

Sergei's father could have cared less about him and only gave Elena a hard time because he could. There was nothing positive or future looking in his attitude. It was all about how he could screw her over one more time. It was a game to him and when he tired of the game he signed the paper to make her go away.

Each situation needs to be taken on its own merit but unless the situation is very unique I would heavily lean towards the path that Jet mentioned.

Ken

[BillyB]

I believe that was Vaughn that you mention.

I believe I read it on from a poster on another forum that's just about dead now, the forum that is. I did search for "Vaughn" and "permission" to be sure it wasn't him but his story is different in that his wife did the talking to the ex at the last minute on the day he, his wife and daughter were to leave to America! He got lucky the ex was sensible and drove to the courthouse with them.

Mark, take a look at this search and there are a couple of threads there you can access that may help out too. Also use the search engine and insert key words pertaining to your situation.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=search2

[William3rd]

mano y mano in a foreign country? hahahahahaha. Dont waste your time.

This permission issue should be taken care of at the beginning of the visa process, not near the end. And the woman should have cleared this small issue up when you proposed.

[groovlstk]

I am not plotting to steal his child, it will always be his child.

I don't know, but when you wrote the quote below, it certainly seemed you were considering deception as a way to bring this child to the US:

She has a sister who lives here but is not yet a citizen and we were thinking of telling him that her sister is going to make this visa for her and her son to come here because she thinks if she tells him she wants him to sign this paper so that she can come here to get married to another man he will be offensive and not sign it.

He has the right to help pay for the expenses which he does not but yet he has a new computer and screen television that he allows the child to come and watch.

So the father IS involved in this child's life? You're right, it's probably not going to be so easy to get him to agree to essentially say goodbye to his child for good.

If he was really caring for the child he would want for his son to have the opportunity to have a good education and nourishment and the support of a loving family. We will see, but I am not plotting to steal anything.

I'm sorry to be hard on you, but that's hogwash. I can only comment as much as you've told your story, but just because you can provide an xbox, filet mignon, and schooling for this child doesn't mean you can give him a fuller and more meaningful life. You may have convinced yourself of this, just as the insane Miami Cuban community were certain little Elian Gonzalez would have a better life without his father.

If the father had earned these rights then I am sure that I would not be speaking to this woman now.

Again, you've convinced yourself that you're the good guy in this and your intentions are pure. That may or may not be true, but I'm sure the child's father would have a different take on why he and his wife divorced.

[groovlstk]

I would need to look him in the eye and listen to what he has to say and I better like it otherwise I'd never sign.

The look-him-in-the-eye and firm handshake crap are Western conceits. You can't expect to do this w/a Russian man and have him "respect" you for it afterwards. He'll likely think you're nuts or just another foolish American.

[mark30378]

Thanks everyone, this has given me some good ideas. She is planning to speak to him this weekend and I will know more by Monday. I suppose I am just worrying to soon about what might happen. If he did become difficult what can she do legally there to correct or to make it possible for the child to be able to come here. And if I ned to I will go back there and try to speak with him also. Thanks

[BC]

Thanks everyone, this has given me some good ideas. She is planning to speak to him this weekend and I will know more by Monday. I suppose I am just worrying to soon about what might happen. If he did become difficult what can she do legally there to correct or to make it possible for the child to be able to come here. And if I ned to I will go back there and try to speak with him also. Thanks

Mark,

In the interim, have you been able to form a relationship with her boy?

What happened with your last K?  Any lessons learned to share?

[chade1968]

Anna has her interview Wednesday the 23rd in Moscow and she does not have a signed document for her daughter. I do not think she has to have it if she is a Russian citizen. He is going to the interview with them and he is not against her coming so I do not think it will be an issue. She is very nervous about everything... I am too but I feel certain it go well. Send me a PM if you want to know the result of the interview.

[Ronnie]

The advice given so far sounds very good to me and correct.  Definitely don't engage in any deception.  I would advise against you communicating directly with the father, it really isn't your business.  Plus, there is a very good chance that the interpreter will editorialize about you.  If the interpreter is very good gramatically and you are not, there is a chance of you making a less than positive impression on the interpreter...Russians draw conclusions about one's grammar.

Let the mother and child ask for the affidavit.  I went thru this on my first k-1/2.  The father agreed reluctantly, then pulled a Brittany Spear when it came time to show up at the notary.  He did that twice, then on the third try he showed and signed.

In my case the divorce decree didn't address custody at all.  Plan B was to go to court and get sole custody.  I wager that better than 90 percent of divorced fathers in the FSU pay no support, even if ordered by the court..there seems to be no enforcement.  However, if he was ordered to pay support, and they usually are, then you would have little problem getting the court to order sole custody.  Again, that's plan B.

Plan C is to find another fiancee'

[chade1968]

Anna received her K-1 without a signature from her daughters father... If your finance is a Ukrainian Citizen it will be required. Her interview only last 5 minutes and they did not even ask to see our pictures. She had spend a lot of time dating and organizing our pictures, separating into each of my four trips but they did not even ask to see them. She said she was very nervous as two girls before her had their K-1's postponed since they did not have their criminal records. Good luck.