Money changes everything

[Misha]

The missing truth here seems to be-
an average western salary ,typically provides a nice home, newer cars,
and family vacations,
so the expectations infered here,  seem strange.
I understand painfully well that my wife made  huge sacrifices in leaving all she has known,,family and friends..
and she has all my love and admiration for that(she knows i also made many sacrifices) I would dearly love to provide my wife a well above average lifestyle,
and a palace to live in,
 at the moment it is like most western families, we have a good life and work together to make things better!
  it does not seem so bad to either of us,
and funny, i do not remember the palace my RW lived in,  
and I guess i should be  glad she has forgotten about  it as well..
 

Again, let's not forget that the median household income in the United States is $45,000. Household would include the income from both the husband and the wife. The median is the halfway point: if you were take all the household incomes and list them from biggest to smallest, the median is the number that falls square in the middle. The average household income would be higher, around $60,000. An average family, neither rich, nor poor, would therefore be living on $45,000 to $60,000 per year and that would usually include the wife having a job.

[KenC]

WHY??? I would LOVE to make more than my husband... if now I could make at least the same amount of money as my husband does, we both would be happy to switch with me going to work and him staying with the kids...

Mischeif,
I like your way of thinking!  Lena and I have a "deal."  I work the first 20 years of our marriage and she works the second 20.  I am fast closing in on the half way mark of my commitment and making sure she has the best education possible to provide for me in my old age.  She just doesn't like it when I call her my "sweet little 401-K!"
 
KenC

[KenC]

Again, let's not forget that the median household income in the United States is $45,000. Household would include the income from both the husband and the wife. The median is the halfway point: if you were take all the household incomes and list them from biggest to smallest, the median is the number that falls square in the middle. The average household income would be higher, around $60,000. An average family, neither rich, nor poor, would therefore be living on $45,000 to $60,000 per year and that would usually include the wife having a job.

Excellent information, gabaub!
It kind of put everything into perspective now, doesn't it?  I remember siting these similar facts to Lena some time ago.  When I asked her what she thought the average income in America was, she answered "$100,00."  She was shocked that (at the time) it was $27,000!  Her next comment was classic, "How is it even possible for people to live on that?"
KenC

[myrddin]

As a newcomer, I appreciate that I now have a realistic idea of the cost of this approach (over & above a different type of courtship), particularly from those who have succeeded.  I want the best chance of success, and there are some irreducible expenditures.  

I'd say money does change some things, not everything.

[Christian]

I would not blame her, but the odds are pretty good that she would be still single. The fact of the matter is that there aren't that many oligarchs in Russia. We can quibble over the numbers, but the reality would still be that there are many, many more young attractive women than very, very wealthy men in Russia. At some point, even some of those very, very attractive women will have to settle for a man who is not an oligarch and will have to lower their expectations.  

Exactly, it is all a matter of value verses valubles.  A women that is materialistic and self-centered will invariably fall victim to her own deceit.  Her mule-husband may even spend $25,000.00 on a wood framed bed alone, but her sex life will be boring and unpleasurable being with a man she does not love.  Her conceits will be shallow and superfical and others will secretly despise her and her vainities or she will be praised and envied by the shallow charactered that wish to be her.

She may drive around in a Mercedez two-seater and have pimple faced country club servants gauk at here lovely legs and try to discover the color of her g-string (if any at all), but her fame and frame will be short lived til the next California babe pulls up.

When she finally rids herself of this unwanted bore and nuscance AM she will be used meat, and her flattery and cunning will be revealed in a older model human frame.  Huh? What?  Nobody loves me for who I am - just as I am?  Well, I'll just go have my nails done.

As for the super wealthy AM, why should he marry?  He has high society call girls for $3,000.00 a pop in Beverly Hills - a new one every night if he wills.  And she too, will make him think he is wonderful, the best, the most well hungest who knows how to use it!

Well, now that I have solved my ex AM's problem I think I'll go by a new Gucci bag.  I'm a good girl.  I deserve it - wheeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

She may be Russian but she isn't a wife.

Christian

[Daveman]

i wanted to add:
 yes, we can name examples like the western man in the doublewide.,
but that again is an exception and  rarity ,and does not reflect the average western man tha thas the funds to complete this process.




Nastya, i think bluebells point wasnt about starving children,
or donations made to their betterment?
 it was an eaxample,,
 it was in asking the  *why* an average Western income is
considered not enough for an average russian women ,
when of course it is adequate  for most AW , as they are living it afterall.

It's a good question,  deseves a straight answer,
but i dont see any from anyone ..

i see alot of , wel it's a complex issue etc etc etc,,

maybe it is uncomfortable to just spell it out.., i dont know.

I'll take a crack at answering the question... I do think there is a bit of truth in that the majority of WM seeking an FSU woman do want young and beautiful, whether they will admit it or not, and the majority of FSUW found on agencies are indeed looking for a much better lifestyle.  So, we don't really see many "average" FSUW at the typical agency because that agency majority is not the normal hometown gal. 

As always, there are exceptions and those are whom I try to find (and I hope that an FSUW would consider me an exceptional man as well). 

I think the rules change only because the "majority" of the players in this game are cut from a certain mold (so it's what we see most), leaving the averages from either country well into the minority in the most common venue of meeting.

I've met three (well two for sure.. the third I'm not sure about because I could never really understand her nor communicate these complex ideas.. dave, you dumbass) who were completely "save the whales" types. Simple lifestyle, simple dreams, very intelligent but with a different value system than the typical agency girl. I have little doubt that the first two would have been very content with a median lifestyle - as long as she nor her children went hungry and the relationship gave her the true love and fulfillment she craved.

A man with a normal income can absolutely find an FSU lady who will be completely happy with him but he absolutely must carefully search and be absolutely honest about his situation.  But as mentioned a gazillion times, he does need a certain amount of savings to court her and relocate her, let her visit back home, etc... I think the big problem here might be many pretenders becoming entangled with the "lifestyle junkies".. both rolling the dice and the crash and burn statistics soar.

Probably the rules do not change as much as it appears, but more like the averages simply don't often meet each other, but when they do (with personality compatibility of course), then their marriages are every bit as happy as any other success story.   

That's my take (subject to change at any moment)... hopefully some others will take a crack at it as well.

Dave

[KenC]

Am I the only one that wants to take a shower after reading Christian's post? :noidea:
KenC

[SANDRO43]

Am I the only one that wants to take a shower after reading Christian's post?

Room for how many ? There's a line-up outside already .

[mischief]

Arnt wetalking about marriage? two people that really connect?
she is hopefully marrying a man she loves, and her lifestyle and oppurtunity will be above the average she had in her home country.

This thread continues to strongly imply that just isn't good enough.

so please lets answer the "why" is that??

I am really curious.
As no , i did not run into this with any AW  i was involved with in my life..
if they came from a typical average western family  background,
 they did not somehow expect the man they fell in love wth,
 to just somehow be one that was  well beyond that..
Thier expectation was to have the same lifestyle they were used to
and work together   towards an even brighter  future.

As I wrote before, an average salary is enough... but you still need some savings for wooing, bringing her over and half a year to an year of adjustment... and then "working together towards an even brighter future"... this is a reality, the rest is wishful thinking...

[mischief]

Mischeif,
I like your way of thinking!  Lena and I have a "deal."  I work the first 20 years of our marriage and she works the second 20.  I am fast closing in on the half way mark of my commitment and making sure she has the best education possible to provide for me in my old age.  She just doesn't like it when I call her my "sweet little 401-K!"
 
KenC

Ken, we have the same "deal"... and got the kids for back up plan... 

But seriously, this country provides the opportunity for women to make more... why not to study and work hard to make more instead of calculating a husband !!???

[pitbull]

I am saying that AM carry the same air of entitlement that they ascribe to AW.  They are entitled to a bride XXteen years younger who is interested only in his personality. God forbit, she is interested in how much money he makes.  

There something odd about picking a country and only then looking for a person to fall in love with. Frequently, it is a case of self-induced love on demand ... and budget.

I have a lot of respect for AW and very little respect for people who belittle their fellow countrymen and women.

See Serebro's post about why guys would seek foreign brides.

Curious_George, I totally agree with you here. I would never marry a man who belittles AW as a class, and his ex in particular. Most probably, he'll say the same nasty things about RW on the whole and me in particular in case anything goes not the way he wants. (We see examples on this board - AM whose marriages with RW went South whine about how bad, materialistic etc.. all RW are (and their ex-RW wifes in particular).
In general, I believe there is something seriously wrong with people who  generalize like that ( e.g. All AW are fat selfish feminists, All RM are abusive drunks etc).

I also don't believe there is any difference between AW, RW or XW...it all goes down to a personality of each particular woman.

Also, some of the posters here sound pretty hypocritical. It is an obvious recurring theme on this forum that most AM go to FSU to find a bride for one major reason: you want and can find a much younger and beautiful woman there and that's what you want.
However, it sounds like those young hotties should only want you for who you are, just because you're a nice guy (no matter how old you are, how you look, and heaven forbid them to be interested in your income).

Well, to be fare and follow your logic about love first, and outer attributes (like income) being secondary.....you should stay in the US and be happy with what is available to you...there are a lot of nice women close to your age in the US. They of course may be not so young and pretty, some of them even overweight - but why should this matter? You should love them not for the outer attribute (appearance), but because they have nice personalities 

[mischief]

Also, some of the posters here sound pretty hypocritical. It is an obvious recurring theme on this forum that most AM go to FSU to find a bride for one major reason: you want and can find a much younger and beautiful woman there and that's what you want.
However, it sounds like those young hotties should only want you for who you are, just because you're a nice guy (no matter how old you are, how you look, and heaven forbid them to be interested in your income).

Well, to be fare and follow your logic about love first, and outer attributes (like income) being secondary.....you should stay in the US and be happy with what is available to you...there are a lot of nice women close to your age in the US. They of course may be not so young and pretty, some of them even overweight - but why should this matter? You should love them not for the outer attribute (appearance), but because they have nice personalities 

LOL... that's a good one!

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, to be fare and follow your logic about love first, and outer attributes (like income) being secondary.....you should stay in the US and be happy with what is available to you...there are a lot of nice women close to your age in the US. They of course may be not so young and pretty, some of them even overweight - but why should this matter? You should love them not for the outer attribute (appearance), but because they have nice personalities 

Pittbull, I am afraid our men won't withstand for the hundredth time this kind of challenge.  Or will they? Yes, it is very fair!

[beachcomber556]

This entire discussion cause me great discomfort.  There is a couple here in The Woodlands, an upscale suburb of Houston -- AM / RW with two little girls.  She is unhappy because they have had some financial reversals, and considering divorce so she can trade up.  Suddenly, last week, he collapses on the floor of their nice home.  A few days later comes the news -- cancer -- brain and lung.  Prognosis? Let's be real.  Money???  You can't buy off the Grim Reaper.  Sort of puts things in perspective.    

[Misha]

Well, to be fare and follow your logic about love first, and outer attributes (like income) being secondary.....you should stay in the US and be happy with what is available to you...there are a lot of nice women close to your age in the US. They of course may be not so young and pretty, some of them even overweight - but why should this matter? You should love them not for the outer attribute (appearance), but because they have nice personalities 

Both have to make compromises. Men may think they will find the stunning supermodel, but most who do get married will find women a few notches down from what they had fantasized. The smart men will realize that they married wonderful women and will realize that their wives are better than any supermodel. The same is true for women: they may dream of the rich American with the the 4-car garage in a ritzy neighbourhood and a second home on the beach. She too will compromise and may settle for an average guy financially, but emotionally a wonderful husband. The best we can hope for is to expand our options and to find someone we can truly love and who will love us.

[AnastassiaAsh]

You can't buy off the Grim Reaper.     

What exactly does this saying mean? I haven't heard that one before. 

[Shadow]

What exactly does this saying mean? I haven't heard that one before. 

The Grim Reaper is Death. The saying means that money will do you no good when it is your time to die.

[catzenmouse]

Well said gabaub!

[Admin]

This entire discussion cause me great discomfort.  There is a couple here in The Woodlands, an upscale suburb of Houston -- AM / RW with two little girls.  She is unhappy because they have had some financial reversals, and considering divorce so she can trade up.  Suddenly, last week, he collapses on the floor of their nice home.  A few days later comes the news -- cancer -- brain and lung.  Prognosis? Let's be real.  Money???  You can't buy off the Grim Reaper.  Sort of puts things in perspective.   

Similar story here. Absolutely beautiful RW - comes to the US and has 2 gorgeous daughters with her AM. He suffers some financial setbacks - they divorce and she immediately trades up to a wealthy BF. Lasts a few months, and now she learns she has esophogeal cancer. BF not interested in supporting her.

Sad, sad story.

- Dan

[Jazzyclassy]

     Also, some of the posters here sound pretty hypocritical. It is an obvious recurring theme on this forum that most AM go to FSU to find a bride for one major reason: you want and can find a much younger and beautiful woman there and that's what you want.
However, it sounds like those young hotties should only want you for who you are, just because you're a nice guy (no matter how old you are, how you look, and heaven forbid them to be interested in your income).

Well, to be fare and follow your logic about love first, and outer attributes (like income) being secondary.....you should stay in the US and be happy with what is available to you...there are a lot of nice women close to your age in the US. They of course may be not so young and pretty, some of them even overweight - but why should this matter? You should love them not for the outer attribute (appearance), but because they have nice personalities                     

That is exactly how I think too

[Jumper]

For what its worth-

My example ,and "daves" original question,
was based on the the *infered* theme in this thread of the WM's  ,and new
immigrated  RW's  situation, needing to be above WESTERN average ,
for a reasonable chance at success, fairness, and happiness.


and in the context of this thread , it seems reasonable to really deeply question this..?

While curious, why these thoughts exist and are generally accepted,
i dont care either way- I'm already married-

 This is a topic good for new guys to read and learn from.
and beats the standard bickering found here too often lately?


So again i submit the conditions of:

An average person,from each culture , meets.
They consider each other for marriage.

*Why* should the western mans status "need" to be elevated above western average, as infered in the thread.

(its at least average as they both already where, and western standards are elevated compered to the ones she would be leaving either way)

You can throw out the
"well the WM is looking for youth and beauty, so why should the RW not dig for gold"

but it is a justification,
and  it isn't relevent to the two average people from each culture meeting?
and certainly isn't representative of the average couples, from the same cultures, working together towards a common goal.


 
 Daves thoughts on the averages of both cultures not generally meeting -
carroiessome weight.
but i contend that most RW signed up in agencies are from the average situation.
While wether they repreresent a typical RW is debateble, and again would be some serious food for thought for new members.


Since i'm the one mostly beleaguering this point,
 if its me that is thought of as  being hypocritical at the moment ,let me know.
 

I think a lot has come out in this thread, that can help better understand things..
and a lot of good points made on both sides.

[Daveman]

Both have to make compromises. Men may think they will find the stunning supermodel, but most who do get married will find women a few notches down from what they had fantasized. The smart men will realize that they married wonderful women and will realize that their wives are better than any supermodel. The same is true for women: they may dream of the rich American with the the 4-car garage in a ritzy neighbourhood and a second home on the beach. She too will compromise and may settle for an average guy financially, but emotionally a wonderful husband. The best we can hope for is to expand our options and to find someone we can truly love and who will love us.

Probably truth there, but another truth is the overall lower success rates of international marriages between WM and FSUW (the divorce rate statistic for AM/AW running at 51% and the int'l rate, IIRC, 59% taken from that same survey which mentions only 10% of FSUW surveyed are actually happy in their marriage).  Could a contributing factor be that one or the other did indeed "settle" for something less such as lifestyle?  Does real love make a difference? does it actually grow in most cases if there is "settling"? or does consternation rear its ugly head after the infatuation period wears off and reality sets in?

One major reason men claim to divorce is constant nagging, and well, a woman who is not happy in her situation is a natural nag.. the endless circle, leading to a variety of symptomatic behavior such as affairs.

A materialistic core being will not normally change (except in cases of serious illness, etc, where the person experiences some for of catharsis for change), so is settling for a "normal" man merely delaying the inevitable of returning to that core behavior? Will our hero snatch victory from the jaws of defeat??  Or will the diabolical trap be sprung??? If I put a post here in the woods, and no one is here to read it, is it still ridiculous? Find out next week, same bat time, same bat channel...

[Admin]

I think a lot has come out in this thread, that can help better understand things..
and a lot of good points made on both sides.

AJ - your badgering (for want of a better word - and meant in a good way) - and widespread participation from our members - and especially our RW members - has contributed to one of the best threads here at RWD in a very long time.

I'd like to express THANKS to all who contributed - and those who may contribute further to this topic. You have shown us how effective RWD can be at gathering a LOT of differing perspectives and offering those to our community for their consideration.

Congrats!

- Dan

[Misha]

Could a contributing factor be that one or the other did indeed "settle" for something less such as lifestyle?  Does real love make a difference? does it actually grow in most cases if there is "settling"? or does consternation rear its ugly head after the infatuation period wears off and reality sets in?

How about calling it a problem of not being able to revise expectations to conform to reality. If a woman expects a mansion and gets an average middle-class home in the suburbs, she may be miserable. Another woman, may have expected a double-wide and will be absolutely overjoyed with the middle-class home in the suburbs. Likewise for the men. If they expected the "10" who will also be the traditional wife and will bring them a beer during the commercials, they may be in for a rude shock.

[MaxxumUSA]

Well, I personally pay attention to how much a man earns because most often than not (again there are exceptions) such people have a bouquet of personal qualities I respect and adore: organized, good thinker, thoughtful, good planner, wise, respected, overacheaver, goal oriented....

ROFL

Some of us high income people have none of these qualities.