Money changes everything

[KenC]

Where do you, and where does she, draw the line between needs and  luxuries?

A Porsche will not necessarily make a person happier than a VW.

You obviously have never had a Porsche!   I was always pretty damn happy driving the few I've had.

a 3,000 square foot house will not necessarily make a person happier than a 1,500.

Personally, I would like to have a bigger music studio. I'm currently using a small bedroom.
Would the bigger studio make me happier.  ...No -just a bit more 'comfortable'.

Again, I would have to disagree.  Even you seem to contradict yourself here.  Isn't "more comfortable" happier?

When I look back at my life and think of the good times, the happy moments, I rarely think
of things that were 'expensive'. I think about certain people that were fun to be around.
I think we should focus on that human interplay, rather than the monetary/materialism.

Happy human interplay is not exclusive to nonmaterialistic events.  I have had many happy moments with people in an wealthy setting, just as I have had some sad moments in poor settings. 

It's best to avoid people who dwell on the size of their house, the car model, their investments. In that context, you must discover what makes your fiancee, wife, or girlfriend happy.

Are her values the same as yours?

If she expects you to be 'generous' without any bounds, you could easily fall into debt.

Photoguy,
Now you have gone too far IMO.  I have been rich and I have been poor, rich is better. :usdeyes:

Money shouldn't run your life, but don't ever think that being rich equates with being unhappy.  That is a fallacy of the poor. 
KenC

[acrzybear]

Money shouldn't run your life, but don't ever think that being rich equates with being unhappy.  That is a fallacy of the poor. 
KenC

KenC

But being rich does present a whole new set of problems and stressers.  I don't have to worry about people liking me for who I am or if they like me for my money.

  I will agree that being rich and miserable provides more options versus being poor and miserable

[Turboguy]

P/G  I guess financial ideas may have something to do with horoscope since you and I share the same birthday and same viewpoint on money.

Personally I have been rich and I have been average and for a time in my life when everything that could go wrong did go wrong I was poorer than dirt.   I have driven a Porsche as well and a few other nice cars.  I have driven a few clunkers.  Right now I have a fairly sporty car but prefer to drive the pick up.   Some of the most unhappy people I have known have been the richest.  I knew one brain surgeon married to a heart surgeon whose house would make KenC's house look like a cracker box.  IE their kitchen had three refrigerators and three stoves and they employed a full time cook (and three other servants in their house) all they did was worry about money.  Their water bill was $ 7,000 a month and the electric bill was $ 20,000.   Another guy I knew owned a large manufacturing business and had experiences and friends in his life that ranged to serious presidential candidates and top entertainment people and he was the loneliest unhappiest man I ever met.

On the other hand one of the happiest people I ever met lived near me when I married the first time.  He had 5 kids, lived in an old house, had a beat up old camper and old aluminum fishing boat (not good he drowned in it a few years later) and old beat up pick up truck but he always was playing with his kids, doing things as a family, always had a smile on his face and was always first to help a neighbor in need. 

Happy people are happy, rich or poor.  Unhappy people are unhappy rich or poor.   If someone needs money and things to make them happy, if they are only content flying first class and driving a Porsche there is something lacking in them.

[groovlstk]

Happy people are happy, rich or poor.  Unhappy people are unhappy rich or poor.   

There was a study several years ago that supports this, the subjects were people who'd won huge sums in lotteries. After a period of euphoria, those who were unhappy in life before the windfall gradually returned to being unhappy, likewise the happy folks dialed back to the same general level of happiness they enjoyed before, regardless of the $$.

Still, conversations like this are academic. If you have to use this argument to explain to your date why you're living in your parents' garage, something tells me she's not likely to be swayed.

[BC]

Still, conversations like this are academic. If you have to use this argument to explain to your date why you're living in your parents' garage, something tells me she's not likely to be swayed.

Hurrah! thread is now back on track.

[Misha]

I would be very interested to know what makes this 'very big population of men'  buy apartments for Kiev women, because you see, I too know hundreds of very good women but sadly enough, nobody buys them any apartment.

Do foreign men actually buy women apartments?!? If they do, then in my opinion, they are certainly falling in the category of sponsor rather than suitor as we discussed in another thread.

[Gator]

We have many people in the pulpit today.  

Turbo, your post is summarized in these oft quoted words – money can not buy happiness.  The wealthy may jokingly counter that anyone who says that does not know where to shop.  If the statement is not true, however, why are there so many psychiatrists whose expensive fees are barely covered by healthcare insurance?

This quote from Washington Post, reporting about Science Journal research, is consistent with what some RWD members are saying:  "People with above-average income . . . are barely happier than others in moment-to-moment experience, tend to be more tense, and do not spend more time in particularly enjoyable activities."

I read the same results about lottery winners that Groovlstk cited, and I concur based on my general experience.  My observation is that happy people are naturally happy, probably born that way.   And the best part - it is infectious to others.  

So what to do?   Find a RW who was born happy.  She will bring you more happiness than another RW whose attributes are limited to more visually appealing flaps of skin and soft tissue.

[I/O]

Christian people would understand me absolutely right. It's the same way when we have to marry only 'equally yoked', it doesn't mean that non-christian men are bad, it is just they are not for us, and vice versa.

Anastassia: I always smile at this one as I watch the bible thumpers trot it out. Which they do with monotonous regularity. Rather a twist on the ancient words which actually translate more accurately from all languages they are found in, to "Do not be unequally yoked with an unbeliever". Note: Nowhere does it say "Don't be yoked with an unbeliever". The key word, as most theologians will tell you, is "Unequally".

IMO, religious tangents and or scriptural quotes should be left out of these discussions, however if one must quote scripture, it is helpful to quote it somewhat accurately.

I/O

[AnastassiaAsh]

Take a look at this guys. I read Atlas Shrugged and Fountain Head when i was 19. I could have made almost all lines in bold but I decided to put in bold only the best of the best...
_____________________________


The following is an excerpt from Atlas Shrugged, © Copyright, 1957, by Ayn Rand. It is reprinted with permission from the Estate of Ayn Rand.

"So you think that money is the root of all evil?" said Francisco d'Anconia. "Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can't exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

"When you accept money in payment for your effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears not all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor--your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money, Is this what you consider evil?

"Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions--and you'll learn that man's mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made--before it can be looted or mooched--made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced.'

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss--the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery--that you must offer them values, not wounds--that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by trade--with reason, not force, as their final arbiter--it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability--and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

"But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality--the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

"Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he's evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he's evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up by becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth--the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir; his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve the mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

"Money is your means of survival. The verdict you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men's vices or men's stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment's or a penny's worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you'll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

"Or did you say it's the love of money that's the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It's the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money--and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

"Let me give you a tip on a clue to men's characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

"Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another--their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

"But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich--will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt--and of his life, as he deserves.

"Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that is does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

"Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men's protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked, 'Account overdrawn.'

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world? You are.

"You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it's crumbling around you, while you're damning its life-blood--money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men's history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves--slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody's mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer, Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers--as industrialists.

"To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money--and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man's mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conquest, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being--the self-made man--the American industrialist.

"If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose--because it contains all the others--the fact that they were the people who created the phrase 'to make money.' No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity--to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words 'to make money' hold the essence of human morality.

"Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters' continents. Now the looters' credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to learn the difference on his own hide-- as, I think, he will.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns--or dollars. Take your choice--there is no other--and your time is running out."

[I/O]

how does money make life better?

It gives you choices.

I/O

[Gator]

Alantodd wrote,

Once they fall and love and meet her parents they buy them an apartment.  Very big population of men doing this. Women in Kiev know this and the very good ones expect this. Not because there gold diggers.  But because they are worth it.

What you have done is similar to what I did with two exceptions: 

-  the magnitude of your generosity is a light year larger,

-  and my fiancée did not expect it.

I pondered buying an apartment (in my name and letting her live in it) because I too wanted us to take our time before marriage.  Yet, it did not seem right, not because of the money, but because it implied that we were not focused on marrying and eventually moving her to America.  Too bad I did not pull the trigger because Moscow apartments have skyrocketed in the years since. 

Alan, please tell me that you purchased the apartment in your name as an investment with the intent to marry, move to your home, and rent/sell your investment?

Anyway, your phrase “good ones expect this…because they are worth it” is what really concerns me.  UW expect it only if that is the customary practice in Kiev or she has that attitude of some UW/RW – "give me money because I am beautiful."  If this has become the customary practice in Kiev, how do the relationships customarily conclude – marriage or something else?

[AnastassiaAsh]

If a man traveling to the FSU *expects* or holds her to a higher standard of  "beauty"
based on her situation or her nationality. Things he would not "expect " or feel
*entitled to* in his own country.  Those actions are shallow.

In my opinion he is not shallow provided he is not fat, bold and ugly himself and poor to top it all. If he is on good level it will be only fair for him to marry a beautiful girl...

But if a RW holds the western man to some higher standard of living because of the situation OR his nationailty, it is glossed over  or justified in a million ways.

It is justified only if she is not much worse than him, if we can compare. If she is very smart, educated, has a great job, flat to live in, etc...why not? Again it will be only natural for her to choose her equal.

The clue is for both of them not to have inferiority complexes later. both of them should meet each other's expectations...

[KenC]

Anastassia,
Atlas Shrugged is my favorite novel of all time.  It was suggested to me by a teacher when I was 14.  I must admit, the book soilidified my thinking on a number of topics.

I just recently bought a beautiful hardcover edition for Lena.  I also had both of my kids read it.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

AnastassiaAsh

I appreciate the thought, but even if you were it's no big deal.  I don't take things personal (something I learned years ago in my line of work), besides how could anyone get mad at you

Yes, you are right, even those people who disagree with me are invited to some almond coffee cake!  I hope they all will still understand a true loving heart of a Russian woman. 

[Gator]

Anastassia wrote,

In my opinion he is not shallow provided he is not fat, bold and ugly himself and poor to top it all.

You forgot "old."       Does a man have to be all five to be shallow?  How about 2 of 5?

[Just having fun in the pews.  These long sermons can get tedious.]

[AnastassiaAsh]

KenC

But being rich does present a whole new set of problems and stressers.  I don't have to worry about people liking me for who I am or if they like me for my money.

  I will agree that being rich and miserable provides more options versus being poor and miserable

Yes, bear, I agree, new set of problems and stress, but this is what some are willing to take or have to take. Only now I fully understand the worries of my late husband, when all of that was on his shoulders. Bear, when you marry a RW you will be totally happy but you will see what other problems will come into your door that are just naturally connected to a married life. There is no way of avoiding stress. I guarantee you. It is just much easier to do all this when you know that there is a person behind you who loves you dearly and will be for you on each step of the way. Do not marry if you do not want problems. Do not have a child if you do not want to worry about his/her health or education later....These are all big weights on parents shoulders.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, now I really hope that after reading Alantodd's post my opinions won't seem that bad to you guys...

....I am just kidding.....you see all things are relative. 

Gator, if you want to laugh a little more I am sure that there are RW who are attracted to such guys: short, bold, a little more handsome than a monkey as they say, old and experienced, with one dollar in the pocket but are ready to adore her in every way...

[AnastassiaAsh]

So what to do?   Find a RW who was born happy.  She will bring you more happiness than another RW whose attributes are limited to more visually appealing flaps of skin and soft tissue.

This is very good, Gator. This can easily be another commandment.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Anastassia: I always smile at this one as I watch the bible thumpers trot it out. Which they do with monotonous regularity. Rather a twist on the ancient words which actually translate more accurately from all languages they are found in, to "Do not be unequally yoked with an unbeliever". Note: Nowhere does it say "Don't be yoked with an unbeliever". The key word, as most theologians will tell you, is "Unequally".

IMO, religious tangents and or scriptural quotes should be left out of these discussions, however if one must quote scripture, it is helpful to quote it somewhat accurately.

I/O

Well, I/O, "Do not be unequally yoked with an unbeliever" means that if you are with unbeliever it will be unequal. Believer with believer is equal. How is it possible to be equal with an unbeliever? Well, i suppose this is not the thread or even board to talk about it...

[AnastassiaAsh]

Anastassia,
Atlas Shrugged is my favorite novel of all time.  It was suggested to me by a teacher when I was 14.  I must admit, the book soilidified my thinking on a number of topics.

I just recently bought a beautiful hardcover edition for Lena.  I also had both of my kids read it.
KenC

Ha-ha! Why am I not surprised? That's awesome. I love this kind of philosophical discussions where she goes on and on for 5 pages just about one topic but where each sentence means so much you almost have to stop for a minute and think... But that book also was and is a perfect source of English vocabulary ... I am sure Lena will love it.

[myrddin]

Hooray -  I don't find many fellow Randfans!

Take a look at this guys. I read Atlas Shrugged and Fountain Head when i was 19. I could have made almost all lines in bold but I decided to put in bold only the best of the best...
_____________________________

The following is an excerpt from Atlas Shrugged, © Copyright, 1957, by Ayn Rand. It is reprinted with permission from the Estate of Ayn Rand.

" Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit.

I agree it's hard to pare that down, but that's my attempt  

I have to accept that I am probably not a Randian superachiever, but no matter how much gold I ever have I could not be happy with a gold digger anyway.

I have heard that you should never send money to your RW, but isn't that unrealistic?  I'd ask if there are some general clues to spot gold diggers (or how to find someone born happy as KenC says), but I might be told that I am left to my own devices - which took 18 years to get me to this forum

[Misha]

My fiance likes money and a man to treat her like a queen.  I like women who want a successful respectful man.  Does that mean I bought her.  Most on this board would say yes.  But I met her on a business trip.  Really had no intention on a overseas relationship.  Never wrote her one letter.  I do well at work and used to be a Calvin Klein model.  To tall to be a model longterm.  I visited her four times in person before anything very serious.  I am old fashioned.  Met her parents several times before getting serious.  After we were engaged, I bought her a very nice apartment right near River Palace overlooking the water on the river on top floor.

I didn't catch this the first time. You bought her an apartment?!? To echo Gator's comment, I hope that the apartment is in your name and you know some good lawyers just in case. Would I say that you bought her? Well, I won't comment, but you do know that you have raised the bar for every man that follows. The fact that you bought your fiancée an apartment is certainly making its way through the agency grapevine and pretty soon every woman looking for a foreign husband will EXPECT that he buy her an apartment if he really loves her ROFL. 

[Gator]

Gaubaub,

you do know that you have raised the bar for every man that follows

Alan says the bar was already that high for the "very good ones." 

So in returning to Page 1 of this thread, where should the bar be set - A low bar such as money for English lessons and to help with the move?   A little higher to help with some stressful needs?  At the top with a new apartment in a prime location?  Or somewhere between?

Personally, I feel that it is a personal decision reached between the man and his woman.  The last thing he should concern himself with is how it affects the men who follow.  Yet men who follow should be aware of such if they intend to date a "very good one" from Kiev.   The provincial and village girls are looking better and better. `

[AnastassiaAsh]

Yes, real estate in Moscow is the best right now in the whole world I would say. So some RW who have an extra flat that they rent might be actually 'richer' than an 'average' AM. Something to consider. Right now is not the time to sell but to hold on to it. 

[Misha]

So in returning to Page 1 of this thread, where should the bar be set - A low bar such as money for English lessons and to help with the move?   A little higher to help with some stressful needs?  At the top with a new apartment in a prime location?  Or somewhere between?

IMHO, a man should not do overseas what he would not dream of doing back home. If you were living in California and had a fiancée in New York, would you buy her an apartment? Would you give that same girlfriend in New York a monthly stipend until you decide whether or not to get married? I would say no.