Money changes everything

[Misha]

Right now is not the time to sell but to hold on to it. 

Wasn't that what they were saying in the US before the subprime fiasco hit? 

[Photo Guy]

KenC,
No, I never said richness leads to unhappiness. I don't know where you got that.
Please re-read.

When I think of all the people I've known in my life, I'd conclude that there isn't
much of a relationship between happiness and wealth, with one general exception:
those who couldn't cover basic expenses were over-stressed and unhappy.
Another malady I've seen, is the condition of living beyond one's own means,
spending more than you earn. I think that's often the result of thinking which
is based on the idea that having more 'things' will lead to happiness.
Cultural brainwashing via media.

I don't agree that comfort is the same as happiness. When I was 20, I drove
a very basic subcompact, a Simca. (French) It wasn't very good. If you drove
through a puddle, the car would stall. I removed the back seat, which made it
possible to load a huge guitar amplifier through the hatchback. Anyway, now
I'm driving an Infinity. It's more of a magic- carpet ride, but looking back, I think
I was just as happy with that 'less comfortable' car. I was okay riding around
in my friends old VW bug too. Our culture is constantly selling us on the idea
that luxury and new shiny material possessions are the ticket to happiness.
It's a myth.

A materialistic culture encourages an epidemic of gluttony, as homeless children
walk the streets of far away cities...

[AnastassiaAsh]

he-he..I don't think this fiasco is going to happen in Moscow any time soon though. 

[Misha]

he-he..I don't think this fiasco is going to happen in Moscow any time soon though. 

That is what they ALWAYS say before the bubble bursts 

[KenC]

KenC,
No, I never said richness leads to unhappiness. I don't know where you got that.
Please re-read.

And I never accused you of saying such.  I was stating my opinion only.  There are many here that have tried to infer that being average is a better path to happiness than being rich and I just do not agree with such thoughts.
KenC

[KenC]

KenC

But being rich does present a whole new set of problems and stressers.  I don't have to worry about people liking me for who I am or if they like me for my money.

  I will agree that being rich and miserable provides more options versus being poor and miserable

Bear,
There are people that are self-stressed and I am one of them.  I am a very determined man and I want what I want so I put pressure (stress) on myself until I accomplish my goal.  That was me rich or poor.  Because of that attitude, I have spent a lot less time being poor!   I can also respect that there are people whom cherish a stress free life.  Good for them too.  It is just not me.

As for your comment about people liking you for your money, as I said upteen pages ago, wealthy people develop a very good sense for those and they are very easy to spot.
KenC

[KenC]

IMHO, a man should not do overseas what he would not dream of doing back home. If you were living in California and had a fiancée in New York, would you buy her an apartment? Would you give that same girlfriend in New York a monthly stipend until you decide whether or not to get married? I would say no.

gabaub,
That post ties in very nicely with my opening post!
KenC

[BC]

All this is 'grass is greener on the other side' kind of talk.  If you haven't been on both sides there is really very little worth discussing.

There is only one thing on earth that can make you happy and it resides not in your pocket, under your @ss, over your head or even between those long legs walking along side holding your arm..  It's located in the space between your ears.

I sort of shudder when I see folks write something like "I know a RW is what I need.." or "I could never be happy with a local woman" etc etc.

Bottom line is if you are not completely happy with yourself and your current lifestyle don't expect a RW to improve things.  The 'pill' is simply too big to swallow, the effect temporary and the experience will leave you with a hangover you'll never forget.

Excuse if OT.. just one of those moments..

[deccie]

Take a look at this guys. I read Atlas Shrugged and Fountain Head when i was 19. I could have made almost all lines in bold but I decided to put in bold only the best of the best...
_____________________________

An interesting read. My only comment about such lines would be the skew modern society has gone through which values some "work" or "production" as termed here more than others.

I would question whether an actor or a sportsman is more of a producer or a contributor to our society than an Engineer or a farmer and yet modern society distributes wealth to a large degree based on the number of people you reach rather than some value attached to the work itself.

Looking at large corporates provides another insight. Rarely is it those who produce most that are rewarded. It is those interested in politics, ladder climbing and other such activities.

[WmGO]

Getting back to Page 1 of this post.  Does not matter what country a woman is from but money is important.  Women want security and money is part of that. Most women I have met in Kiev think all Americans are millionaires.  Really is not hard to be a millionaire in USA when your 35 plus years of age. Fact fairly easy to do that in Kiev and Moscow currently. Nothing wrong with a RW who expects her future husband to be good mannered and successful which in todays society is measured on your pay check and networth.  Not measured on being a good teacher, fire fighter, etc.

Stereotype of most AM with Russian wives is probably true.  And that is why a lot of AM get divorces with RW when there wives can trade up. I know a lot of RW who have done this or planning on doing this.  But a smart AM will be very upfront with his future wife.  Tell her where he fits in class and status.  So there is no surprises.   The married couples on this discussion board have done that in their relationship. 

My fiance likes money and a man to treat her like a queen.  I like women who want a successful respectful man.  Does that mean I bought her.  Most on this board would say yes.  But I met her on a business trip.  Really had no intention on a overseas relationship.  Never wrote her one letter.  I do well at work and used to be a Calvin Klein model.  To tall to be a model longterm.  I visited her four times in person before anything very serious.  I am old fashioned.  Met her parents several times before getting serious.  After we were engaged, I bought her a very nice apartment right near River Palace overlooking the water on the river on top floor.  I have never been to River Palace and if I did my fiance would throw me to the curb.  Don't blame her based on the stories I have heard.  Buying an apartment is a no no on ten commandment list.  But I want my future wife to be taken care of.  Wear nice clothes, nice apartment, etc.  She has a debit card with a very high withdrawal limit and can take as much money as she likes. Another no no for this board.  But she always asks what she can take.  I always tell her take what you need.  Sometimes it is $5 sometimes several thousand.  Kiev is a very expensive city.  I have been there 19 times now since July 2006.

Also, my ex AW was great.  We just married to young and she liked sports and working to much for me (football is for the guys). Men who say AW are bad probably are not that desirable themselves.  There are many good AW unless your in California and New York (than I agree with you).  I want a traditional woman and I should expect this woman to want a successful man.  I agree with AnastassiaAsh.  Nothing wrong with her requiring financial stable man with good manners.  She has a child to think of.  I do disagree about if you were in America when you were born you would be rich.  It is easier to become rich in Russia right now than USA.  I was just in Iran and you can make ridiculous money there right now.

I also think the men on this board with good looking wives tend to have money or our a celebrity / athlete.  Your wives knew you were successful on how you act.  Women like successful man (provides security).  Men like beauty.

Most men I know who seek women in Ukraine never write letters or go on discussion boards.  They visit Ukraine often.  No key board / text messaging romeos here.  Once they fall and love and meet her parents they buy them an apartment.  Very big population of men doing this. Women in Kiev know this and the very good ones expect this. Not because there gold diggers.  But because they are worth it.  Women near 30 years of age or older remember standing in line to receive food, Chernobyl, several monetary collapses, mafia killing people.  They do not want this for their future families.  Sorry guys.  Money is important.

One thing RW do like and is unique to their countries is that they tend to like men over 40 years of age for marriage.  For a couple of reasons but mainly because you are less likely to cheat on them and you have a stable income.  You are serious about marriage and family and based on your age they believe you have money.

I am sure no on on this board uses Delphania.  Most of these girls are really serious at Delphania but very high expectations.  But if you want a great woman but you better be a great catch of a guy this is the place to go.  Major leagues.  If not got to Elena Models and the bush leagues.

This entire post is pure bs.

[except for the second and third sentences of the first paragraph and a few points made in the fourth paragraph]

[deccie]

That is what they ALWAYS say before the bubble bursts 

I believe prices have fallen in St Petersburg in the last 12 months.

[WmGO]

IMHO, a man should not do overseas what he would not dream of doing back home. If you were living in California and had a fiancée in New York, would you buy her an apartment? Would you give that same girlfriend in New York a monthly stipend until you decide whether or not to get married? I would say no.

gabaub,
That post ties in very nicely with my opening post!
KenC

Agree 100%.

But then again, insanity seems to be the rule
of the day when it comes to WM pursuit of FSUW....

[WmGO]

A good, honest, sincere and decent FSUW who makes herself available
for marriage to a WM simply does not want to live in financially poor conditions.
She is not looking for a rich man or a sugar daddy or a sponsor. But she certainly
is not looking to trade poor or meager for poor and meager. She wants to be reasonably comfortable and secure. For the good FSUW, "financially secure" means NOT poor financially [ and also culturally ]. This rules out poor and lower middle class WM.

What this means for the good, decent and honorable WM is that if he is at least
*solidly* middle middle class, has a university education and some couth, savy and sophistication, and is a masculine leader type, he should be very adequate for the type of FSUW I describe above. The other type of FSUW should be avoided like the plague..........

[Jumper]

Bluebell- nice post.

WmGo-
 Thanks ,that's what i was trying to say..

Coincidentally and almost amazingly, my wife doesn't feel like she traded down in lifestyle ,marrying me..  both our lives are richer for it.
While she certainly appreciates the finer things in life, doesn't expect them to fall from the sky because of some trait she may ,or may not have.
Recognizes it would be nice to marry into real wealth, but is willing to work together towards goals.....and somehow doesn't consider that torture or abuse. 
Now come to think of it,, she would certainly love a flat in Kyiv!!
 but never expected it, despite that , somehow seems to have very good self esteem. 
I think there are many many RW like this,with realistic expectations ,and this threads earlier *inferences* does them all a great disservice.


 I know my posts in this thread can be construed as simply being defensive,
but my hope is they are taken to point out that it isn't all that unusual in this world,
for two normal average income people to meet and ultimately marry, having realistic goals, and expectations, and be happy.
 
alantodd-
::::::::::sarcasm alert::::::::::::::::::::::::
You know-
It's really too bad the *bush leagues of Elenas*, are not the good ones..
since most of them don't *expect* a river front flat in Kiev after engagement.

but I'm sure if they just knew ,they would learn how to value themselves enough to demand that,,and in turn then be "worth" it.
 someone should tell those girls!
:::::::::::::::sarcasm alert::::::::::::::::::::


 

[mischief]

A good, honest, sincere and decent FSUW who makes herself available
for marriage to a WM simply does not want to live in financially poor conditions.
She is not looking for a rich man or a sugar daddy or a sponsor. But she certainly
is not looking to trade poor or meager for poor and meager. She wants to be reasonably comfortable and secure. For the good FSUW, "financially secure" means NOT poor financially [ and also culturally ]. This rules out poor and lower middle class WM.

What this means for the good, decent and honorable WM is that if he is at least
*solidly* middle middle class, has a university education and some couth, savy and sophistication, and is a masculine leader type, he should be very adequate for the type of FSUW I describe above. The other type of FSUW should be avoided like the plague..........

I second that! very well said...

[I/O]

Well, i suppose this is not the thread or even board to talk about it...

Anastassia: On this point you are entirely correct, on the other, you need to do a little more study.

I/O

[Daveman]

Getting back to Page 1 of this post.  Does not matter what country a woman is from but money is important.  ... Nothing wrong with a RW who expects her future husband to be good mannered and successful which in todays society is measured on your pay check and networth.  Not measured on being a good teacher, fire fighter, etc.
 (snip)

That has to be one of the strangest posts I've seen here.  Okay we have a wide variety of outlooks here for sure...


Regardless of what anyone actually makes or has, or if they would treat her like a queen, whatever, I would still like to see more answers (even honest guesses) to those questions about "averages", and why an average stable life in the west is not good enough for an average FSUW when that western average will actually improve her lifestyle by a *considerable* amount in an overwhelming majority of the situations.  Certainly there are not large numbers of guys buying flats for the ladies or other such relatively over the top approaches.

Here are some points so far  which really just seem completely bizarre...
Assuming the man has the money for trips, courting, etc,

1) FSUW think all westerners are rich so obviously, if he's not, then there's something wrong with him.
2) wealth is a mark of intelligence, so anyone who is not rich is an idiot.
3) he must have enough savings to buy her a NEW car (of her very own), even though she probably won't even get a license for at least a couple of years.
4) a $75K house is not good enough (though in almost all cases, it will be an improvement to her current situation)
5) an older house is not good enough (though chances are, she currently lives in a dilapidated soviet era and style building from the 50's, 60's, or 70's, with half the mailboxes dented and ripped from the wall, etc.)
6) the housing conditions above might be acceptable if the house has been decorated with leopard spots and decorative rugs (couldn't resist this one)
7) FSUW have tremendous pride as well as unrealistic expectations.

It's not a question of what we would or wouldn't do for them, but rather why an average median western life would not be good enough for the average FSUW, when it would be a pretty nice improvement to their current living situation in most of the cases. Is this not the equivalent of or at least similar to a back door 'rescue' mentality on steroids?

I'm with AJ on this one - it just seems odd when you really think about it.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Here are some points so far  which really just seem completely bizarre...
Assuming the man has the money for trips, courting, etc,

1) FSUW think all westerners are rich so obviously, if he's not, then there's something wrong with him.

Wrong. As I said before for me personally that border lies somewhere around 50K a year. If a lady expects him to earn around this sum then it is normal.

2) wealth is a mark of intelligence, so anyone who is not rich is an idiot.

Deffinitely but not always.  In this country you sometimes don't have to have a good education to become a millionaire, but I would like to hope that most of millionaires ARE educated and far from idiots. A man who earns 30K is either 25 y.o. or if he is 45 y.o. and earns 30K he leads the simplest life and most of the time does not have high education or has big problems managing his money or whatever…Bottom line he will not attract educated and beautiful women in Russia. Life with him will be worse (in my opinion) financially than back in Russia.

It's common knowledge that even just a simple secondary education in Russia surpasses far and beyond good private school here. So even women who didn't graduate from universities or studied only for a year or two and quit are much smarter and educated than some times university graduates here in the US. So the difference is not even one level, but two or three. Thus all RW, poor or rich, educated or not, are higher in their development. Plus all the wonderful traits that they posses…it all leads me to think that they deserve a man who earns 50K or more. Again it is my opinion. Yes, honest opinion.

3) he must have enough savings to buy her a NEW car (of her very own), even though she probably won't even get a license for at least a couple of years.

Daveman, dear, you are exaggerating, maybe for the sake of keeping this thread alive  , but this is wrong. She always needs to start with a used car, comfortable to have some scratches, later it is ok to buy a good used car. I think it's foolish to buy a completely new car as the second you drive out of there it becomes 20% less worth its initial price. There are lots of good used cars. You know it, everybody knows it. Yes, a man has to have enough of savings to buy her a good car later. This notion can be stretchable again depending on different things. I started with Toyota Corolla 99 and drove it till 2007, now I have a PT Cruiser Limited Edition. This is my second care during these 8 years. These are not luxurious cars, but good looking and comfortable.
I remember on one of those women's sites there was a thread about who has what car among women. I can admit I am the poorest among them.    They attached some pictures of 40K-100K or so cars…..Good for them! But that was a little over the board for me. I prefer to invest extra money into paying off the mortgage or something that will not go down in price but will go up…

4) a $75K house is not good enough (though in almost all cases, it will be an improvement to her current situation)

Haha, you got me there. For me it won't but maybe for her it will be ok.  But I bet she will want to find something maybe smaller but newer in a year or two. ;-) What if she has a dacha house which is even better than yours? She will be able to compare. She might say she likes it but won't be able to see herself living there all year round, that's why very often they want to see your house and the environment of your town or city where you live.
When I moved to Redmond, WA to a one bedroom apartment where my late husband Lance lived, it was tiny but top notch, all the appliances and all the amenities that a good renting complex gives you, 1 min away from Microsoft ProClub, close to beautiful plazas and shopping malls. But Redmond in comparison to Moscow is the smallest country and a rural place! In that sense I degraded so low. Do you understand what I mean? But was it beautiful there? Yes! Was it nice? Yes! Did I complain? No! Later we moved to a two bedroom condo. That was very nice and I was happy, more than happy.  It was not 5 bedroom 4 bath, it was not luxurious…but it was very nice and perfect for our situation. Was it 75K? hehe, no, far more than that, you know Seattle real estate prices… Was I materialistic to want to live in such a condo? Of course not. It was more of Lance's idea actually than mine, because he bought it long time before I even came to the US. (preconstruction purchase)…He was 28 and I was 25 at that time…
With 75K house you better have no mortgage at all! 

5) an older house is not good enough (though chances are, she currently lives in a dilapidated soviet era and style building from the 50's, 60's, or 70's, with half the mailboxes dented and ripped from the wall, etc.)

You are right, but her place costs 3 if not more times than yours! I know it sounds ridiculous but it is true. And I am actually not sure about those ‘chances’ you mentioned. Maybe they are not as high as you think. The block house that I lived in Moscow is about my age, it is not new but not old either I would say and it is in one of the prestigious districts, Izmailovo, surrounded by parks and a forest….Any way she might live in not as bad conditions as you think. If she is from Ukraine and a small town she might live in what you described though…

6) the housing conditions above might be acceptable if the house has been decorated with leopard spots and decorative rugs (couldn't resist this one)

Yeah, you better do that!  She will start cleaning and redecorating any way I am sure…

7) FSUW have tremendous pride as well as unrealistic expectations.

Haha, Yes and No. Those women who know exactly what they want get it and are happily ever after, and those who don't are lost later…

[tim 360]

Egad!  30 pages and it just keeps going.  All pretty interesting.  Given their 'druthers most people would rather have more money... than less money.  I am not saying that is the best or wisest course.  Most would opt for being rich rather than being poor or middle-middle class.  In selecting a suitable mate most women do take money into consideration; whether on a conscious or sub-conscious level when selecting a mate.  But not all.  Some will say, "I'll take the poor guy."

Money?  It makes the world go round.

[Shadow]

A woman anywhere will not like a big drop in lifestyle as a result of marriage. On the other hand they should not mind if their lifestyle is on average equal. If the only reason they go for a WM is to improve their status or finances the man should consider carefully if he is important in this equation or replaceable.

As for education, I have seen a lot of complete idiots with a high education and IQ (might consider myself one of them now and then), and smart people that have no education at all. It is not important.

Job, status and money are actually not important in life. They are just means to get enjoyment and quality. Many people can enjoy their life and live it in good quality without ever having a big bank account or buying a new SUV. Are all these men who can live a normal life unable to find a wife in the FSU ? That would be ridiculous.
What is needed is enough income to sustain a family, and to make one or two trips to the FSU a year. That is it.
There is no obligation to buy your wife a new car, to buy her an apartment in her home town or Kiev or Moscow, to dress her in the latest  fashions complete wit Gucci bags. All that is nice if you can do it, but in no way needed to find a wife in the FSU.

The guys who find the best wives are the ones who can enjoy drinking vodka with her parents and grandparents in their two-room arpartment without having the urge to get out of there and back home

[SANDRO43]

In this country you sometimes don't have to have a good education to become a millionaire, but I would like to hope that most of millionaires ARE educated and far from idiots.

In MY country, millionaires may also have other 'qualities' in addition to the above.

I learned from yesterday's TV news that the attorney that had handled my separation and divorce 30 years ago has just been arrested for laundering mafia money in Switzerland: he had taken over a small Swiss merchant bank which later collapsed, and that may have started off the investigation, at the behest of some pissed-off Swiss clients.

What is significant is that he had gained notoriety here by defending the interests of the ruined stockholders of Banco Ambrosiano, a crashed Italian bank controlled by mafia-connected Michele Sindona (cyanide-suicidED in jail while awaiting trial for bankruptcy), where the "Istituto per le Opere di Religione" (the Vatican's bank) headed by American Archbishop Paul Casimir Marcinkus (an innovative, creative-finance enthusiast) was also heavily involved. Apparenty, my far-from-idiot, educated millionaire attorney had got a few valuable ideas from that experience .

All that is gold does not glitter, but also all that glitters may NOT be gold, really .

[Misha]

Regardless of what anyone actually makes or has, or if they would treat her like a queen, whatever, I would still like to see more answers (even honest guesses) to those questions about "averages", and why an average stable life in the west is not good enough for an average FSUW when that western average will actually improve her lifestyle by a *considerable* amount in an overwhelming majority of the situations.

The challenge is finding an AVERAGE FSUW and not the woman at the agencies who had developed unrealistic expectations and the high-maintenance princess who believes that she deserves everything brought to her on a silver platter including the keys to her new porsche. There are a number of ways of doing this. If you look at other options other than agencies (the free Russian dating sites as I did or simply spending time in Russia teaching or working) then you increase your odds IMHO. Also, if the man's expectations are more realistic, then he will also have a much better chance. This includes not expecting to find a supermodel 30 years younger than you are and perfectly fluent in English. It is also a question of being frank and honest with the women. Yes, if you tell them that you are not a millionaire and cannot spend, spend and spend, then you may scare away some women, but at least the ones you find will be the down-to-earth women that you may actually want to spend your life with.   

[oldernotwiser]

It's common knowledge that even just a simple secondary education in Russia surpasses far and beyond good private school here. So even women who didn't graduate from universities or studied only for a year or two and quit are much smarter and educated than some times university graduates here in the US. So the difference is not even one level, but two or three. Thus all RW, poor or rich, educated or not, are higher in their development.

This is not common knowledge to me.  While I am sure there are many good Russian Universities, I have also heard that corruption exists also in educational system.  Not saying there are not paper mills here in the US but when comparing overall educational system, I have trouble believing that it is that much superior to the one here in the US.  Am I out of touch???

[Misha]

This is not common knowledge to me.  While I am sure there are many good Russian Universities, I have also heard that corruption exists also in educational system.  Not saying there are not paper mills here in the US but when comparing overall educational system, I have trouble believing that it is that much superior to the one here in the US.  Am I out of touch???

No, in my opinion you are not. To apply for university in Russia, you have to write entrance exams and these can be quite stringent. However, you can get in by paying enough cash. Most universities in Russia have two streams the free and the "commercial." In the commercial stream, you can pay a lot of cash to the university and get in with much lower results on the entrance exam. Often the right gift will ease things considerably as well even if you don't quite have the right grade to meet even the lower expectations of the commercial stream. There is always the option of giving the right gift to the right person to get the grades you want once you are in the system. To make a long story short, if you have enough cash in Russia, it is quite easy to work your way through the system. In certain ways, this is much like what you find in the Ivy League schools in the United States: it is pretty much common knowledge that once you get into Harvard, with grade inflation, it is pretty hard for a student to get less than an A.

[KenC]

The challenge is finding an AVERAGE FSUW and not the woman at the agencies who had developed unrealistic expectations and the high-maintenance princess who believes that she deserves everything brought to her on a silver platter including the keys to her new porsche. There are a number of ways of doing this. If you look at other options other than agencies (the free Russian dating sites as I did or simply spending time in Russia teaching or working) then you increase your odds IMHO. Also, if the man's expectations are more realistic, then he will also have a much better chance. This includes not expecting to find a supermodel 30 years younger than you are and perfectly fluent in English. It is also a question of being frank and honest with the women. Yes, if you tell them that you are not a millionaire and cannot spend, spend and spend, then you may scare away some women, but at least the ones you find will be the down-to-earth women that you may actually want to spend your life with.   

gabaub,
Your words struck a nerve with me.  (The highlighted ones and the 30 years dif/super model too  ) Sometimes you can get your cake and eat it too!

I have already posted in this thread how Lena has stuck with me through thick and thin, but there were very early signs of her nature too.  My first trip to visit Lena was full of all the regular stuff: meet the parents, some dinners out, dinners in, a day trip to Moscow, nothing lavish or expensive.  On my second trip, we met in Moscow and stayed at a realitively expensive new Marriott near the Arbot.  Lena fit into this caliber of life like a fish in water.  One of the things I love about her is that nothing intimadates her!

Well, part way through my trip, I had miscalculated expenses (something about 25% taxes on rooms) and I was waiting for a transfer of funds back home.  I found myself short of funds for the evening.  I explained this to Lena and she didn't skip a beat.  She suggested we go to dinner at Patio Pizza, an inexpensive salad bar restaurant in Moscow.  (Gator has posted that even this place is now expensive, but I am speaking of 10 years ago)  My point being that it just didn't matter to her if we were eating a $200 dinner in the hotels Polo Lounge restaurant or a salad at Patio Pizza, she was the same Lena.

A funny side story if I may.  Lena thought it was so cool to have a mini bar in the room.  She atacked the snacks with vengence.  Of course at the time she didn't understand that the snacks were not free!   As I said, some things never change.  She still puts a hurt on my hotel room charges with her "snack attacks" to this day!
KenC