Money changes everything

[KenC]

Money Changes Everything-

You freshmen need to think long and hard about how you will handle your money in this pursuit of a RW.  As it may be true (not always though) that you can offer your potential RW a better life in your home country, do you really want to use your financial superiority as the bait to land your future wife?  Do you want your relationship to be clouded with the concept that she is yours because of your wallet?  Or do you want a woman that loves you for your qualities as a man and a human being?  The choice is yours.  But it is a difficult choice too.

It is a much harder road to win the heart of a woman half way around the world, with your charm, romantic ways and character than it is to just overwhelm her with gifts and money.  Most men in this venture IMO take the easy way out and just dole out the cash to win the prize.  And some prize that might be if she is into your wallet more than she is into you.  Is that what you really want?

And yet it is a fine line you need to walk when it comes to the financial end of things.  Almost any woman wants to know she will have a stable life with her future husband, and that hardly is a fault.  She deserves to know that she will be provided for in a proper manner.  But you need not throw your money around like a drunken sailor either.  I would think that you would want to seek a woman that has fallen in love with you and not just signed up for a BBD. (Bigger better deal).

You also have to consider the competition.  RM are known to spend their last ruble to impress a girl.  As the financial strength of Russia grows, your dollars will be less and less impressive any way.  So you may find yourself back in the old fashion mode of just winning a woman's heart through methods other than dazzling her with your check book.  So what do you do?

Be yourself!  Would you buy an American woman a pricey pair of boots on your first date?  Of course you wouldn't!  And you would (or should) be offended if one were to ask for such a gift so early into a relationship.  Why should it be any different with a RW?  Any woman that would ask for an expensive gift early on in a relationship is not worth being with!  You need to fight the natural urge as a man to “save” the poor woman.  Remember that your goal is to develop a strong and loving relationship, not to take a shortcut and try to buy it.
I personally am a generous man.  Almost to a fault.  I was generous with my now wife of 8 years when we met.  But I was generous on my own terms.  I choose to eat at a fancy restaurant or to buy her or her family a gift, not her.  Quite frankly, if she had asked, it would have changed everything in my mind.  There are many a horror story here where an AM is “worked” by a RW into paying for expensive dinners, expensive trips, providing money for a better life or an ailing grandma or two.  Don’t fall into that trap. Any self respecting RW would not ask for such things.   If anything RW have much more self pride than even AW.

Once you begin to develop a real relationship with much face to face time, the financial road becomes somewhat trickier.  But I maintain that the man should still call his own financial shots and any “suggestions” of undue financial rewards brought about by the RW should be greatly suspect.  If her focus is more on things you can provide for her and her family and not you, then run, Forest, run.  Keep in mind that this woman has existed all her life without your money.

Many men here at RWD set up their RW with a regular “salary” during the dating process.  I strongly disagree with this action.  What is the “salary” for?  Is it a payment to be your girlfriend?  It doesn’t matter how little money it is to you either.  Once you start making “girlfriend payments” you cloud the real issue of why she is with you IMO.  You just will never know what her motivation was once you start paying her a salary.  There is a big difference in my mind between a “girlfriend”, a true “fiancée” (not the one week wonder kind) and a “wife.”  My best advice is not to open those financial floodgates until after you two walk down the aisle.
KenC

[catzenmouse]

That's some good stuff there Ken!

 I'd like to add an addendum to the time line of the opening of the financial floodgates.

 There is nothing wrong with giving your wife to be a couple of months off work before she leaves to come to you. It gives her a less stressful time to visit with all of her friends and family one last time and to take care of any of the final details before her trip. At this point you are both committed to each other and your future together. Remember: the visa is NOT a trial marriage it is for those who are ready to marry.

 It should also go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that the man should be paying for any and all documents or travel which is related to the visa process.

Ken

[KenC]

That's some good stuff there Ken!

 I'd like to add an addendum to the time line of the opening of the financial floodgates.

 There is nothing wrong with giving your wife to be a couple of months off work before she leaves to come to you. It gives her a less stressful time to visit with all of her friends and family one last time and to take care of any of the final details before her trip. At this point you are both committed to each other and your future together. Remember: the visa is NOT a trial marriage it is for those who are ready to marry.

 It should also go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that the man should be paying for any and all documents or travel which is related to the visa process.

Ken

Of course, Ken,
And I will go even further with that thought.  The man should incure all costs related to the RW dating him.
KenC

[MaxxumUSA]

Ken,  (Catz)

I disagree about the couple months off work before she comes to USA.  My wife worked up until 1 1/2 weeks before we flew together out of Russia - by choice.  Now that I think about it - Her interview in Moscow was on a Tuesday and her last day of work was the Friday before.

Two months I think is too long for a woman to have nothing to do.  My wife would have been bored out of her wits waiting for her Interview and waiting for me to come get her.  Besides that she had a good job and with those last few months of income she helped her family financially.

I agree there may be cases where a bit longer to take care of things might be required.  But two months is a long time.

But I do agree with both of you about helping with her costs while she is dating you.  For instance my wife took time off work on all of my visits.  I offered to help her with rent, food, etc. as she lost income due to the amount of time I spent with her (2 months out of 8 months last year while we were engaged.)

As for a RW asking for expensive gifts.  Hmm...  That would be a red flag in my book, especially early on.

I don't know if another thread prompted this one - but you have brought some good points to the table for the newcomers, KenC.

- Maxxum

[Misha]

I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Ken. The problem with winning a woman through the spending of a lot of cash is the question of what happens if and when the money runs out. Most men spend more freely when they are on vacation: you will eat in better restaurants more frequently, you will go out more often. Most men cannot maintain this level of spending all the time. What happens when she gets to her new home and her husband tells her that they have to go to restaurants less frequently and you may not be going to 5-star restaurants as often? How will they react? In the long run this may lead to conflict. Or what happens if 5 or 10 or 15 years down the road the husband faces financial problems: job loss, bankruptcy, etc.... Life happens. If your wife married you simply because you were lavishing a lot of money on her, then she will likely leave as soon as her "husband" stops spending the cash. Ken is right in that you want a woman to love you for you and not your wallet.

I also agree that 2 months is a bit much for a woman to prepare for her departure, unless the woman has relatives scattered all over the country that she wants to visit before leaving her homeland. My wife worked until the end of August and left Russia in mid-September. Those two weeks were more than sufficient to say good-bye to everybody.

[groovlstk]

One of the saddest errors I see among newbies is the guy who falls head-over-heels for a gorgeous woman and then when she asks him to buy her expensive gifts he rationalizes it by saying she's "testing" him. He ponies up the cash without hesitation and then smugly reports to everyone that he passed her test. He passed, alright...

Besides that she had a good job and with those last few months of income she helped her family financially.

One thing you have to consider is that it may not be the woman's choice as to when she can quit her job, and there's also that pesky little pay cycle thingee. My wife had a great career in Moscow, we decided she should quit her job 1 month prior to her embassy interview. Besides the fact that she needed time to get her life in order in preparation for relocating, she did not trust her managers to pay her what she was owed in her final paycheck. This is sadly a very common occurence and one of the main reasons why many Russian people will only announce their intentions to quit the day after payday. Understand that if your wife does the honorable thing and informs her manager a month or so prior to her quit date, she may be fired on the spot and/or have her last paycheck disappear into his pocket.

[KenC]

gabaub,
It may not be a matter of the husbands income changing as much as it is the  preponderance of many other options for a BBD.  It is easy to be "the rich man" in some Podunk Ukrainian village, but that all changes once you bring her to LA, NY, Miami ........

If the woman is with you because of money, what's to stop her from upgrading once she arrives in America? :noidea:

Groov,
Wise comments, as always.
KenC

[Misha]

If the woman is with you because of money, what's to stop her from upgrading once she arrives in America? :noidea:

Even if she does not upgrade she can often is disappointed and this leads to divorces. I know one RW in my city who married a Canadian. When he was in Russia, he was generous they went out quite a bit. However, when she arrived, they stopped going out and they did not go anywhere. Simply put, she was disappointed in that the man that she knew in Russia was not the man she lived with in Canada. This disappointment did not help the marriage and after a few years they ended up getting divorced.

[KenC]

Well, gabaub,
It is almost impossible for a couple to maintain the same intensity through out their married life as they did during the romancing stage and the honeymoon stage of their relationship.  It is only natural for a marriage to take a more sedated track through life.  It is during that time (and even in the down times) that the love for one another holds everything together.  Without love, every little bump in the road can be disastrous.
KenC

[I/O]

KenC: Timely thread...!!! Don't send 'em money, don't send 'em money before you meet, don't send 'em money until you know them, blah blah and how many times do we see evidence of guys doing exactly the opposite and trying to justify it. If you've gotta pay for her to play the show will end sooner rather than later because no matter how big the wallet is, eventually it won't be big enough for her tastes as they increase in price.

Couple of things I've learned along this road with my now wife. If and I stress IF you do decide to assist in some financial way, IF she is anyways decent, DON'T discuss it with her. Yes, DON'T discuss it, simply do it and do it quietly.

I recall during the mid part of the SECOND year of getting to know my wife, we had decided on marriage, relocation etc and of course she had accepted my paying for her travel for visa interviews etc, however I decided to broach the subject of her financial situation to be sure all was OK. We had NEVER discussed the subject of money during any of my visits there or her visits to me. (She and her family was far from poor, although not wealthy) Her response was deafening. I/O on this subject I is silent...you make me very red (Embarrassed).....!!!! Did I ultimately assist her with some last minute training? (In order to more easily find work here after she arrived) Yes of course I did. Was it expensive? Yes it was. It was at my insistence. I did not, nor did I consider handing money out for personal cash expenses. It simply should never come into the equation.

Good luck to anyone who wants to play mobile "Bankomat" because they will sure need that luck to get anything worthwhile out of this pursuit. Any woman who asks for assistance prior to the very final stages before marriage, if even then should be summarily dismissed without right of appeal.

I/O

[Shadow]

I have in the past made the mistake of giving support too soon, so I 'hardlined' it for myself after I met my fiancee.
To solve any problems, I made a simple solution.
First of all I would upon departure hide some money to cover her expenses, which she would find only after I left on the plane and she got back home. Not a big amount, but enough to cover some extra expenses I knew she would get.
Next I gave her a debit card from a special account, that was to be transferred in her name later on. This was, as I told her, for emergency so if she would lose her job or get in to financial trouble I could help her. Needless to say that from the moment I let her test how it worked until she started using the account here the card was never used.
There was a moment where she was threatened to lose her job, and I assured her that it would not be a problem for me. Maybe it was a test from her boss, as she never lost the job and we even visited her former work together later on

[catzenmouse]

Maxx,

 I think you're reading too much into my post. I'm not saying anything about a "set in stone" amount of time. Just that it is okay to give your future wife some time off. My wife worked up until her interview in Moscow then again for a few more days after the interview (as they were shorthanded with her leaving) so she didn't even have a week off let alone two months.

 Additionally: Any time I would send money for the paperwork, travel, etc. I added a buffer amount for "just in case". When she arrived here she had saved every cent of that buffer money and brought it with her. Wish the heck I could be so frugal with money!

Ken

[Gator]

So what are the exceptions other than the one mentioned by Catzenmouse?

[KenC]

So what are the exceptions other than the one mentioned by Catzenmouse?

Gator,
Very very few IMO.  Once you put your girlfriend on payroll, you can never be 100% sure of her intentions IMHO.
KenC

[MaxxumUSA]

So what are the exceptions other than the one mentioned by Catzenmouse?

"In 1964, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart tried to define what may or may not be considered obscene under US law. In the end, he determined that no definition existed, but that when it comes to obscenity, "I know it when I see it."

The same holds true when you're talking about women taking advantage of men.

So for each situation there will be its own circumstances.  I think it's OK for a woman to request reasonable financial help from her long term boyfriend/fiance/husband.  Like KenC mentioned an expensive gift on the first date should not be asked for.  And BTW it should not be offered either - it would put some respectable women in an uncomfortable situation where she is being given this expensive thing too early.

Going into this marriage business I had an open mind and a thought process that says I am moving forward to find my soulmate and I will share everything in my life with that woman.  Including my time, material posessions, and money.  But when these things take a bit of time.

I communicated with a few women via email and quickly weeded through their responses to my questions because like that judge said...  "I also know it when I see it"  Some were definitely concerned about the (financial) qualities I had rather than other qualities.

THE PROBLEM:  Some men DON'T SEE IT.  So if they are in doubt they should post their experience here and those of us that can "see it" will let them know they're being taken advantage of.

[Christian]

"In 1964, Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart tried to define what may or may not be considered obscene under US law. In the end, he determined that no definition existed, but that when it comes to obscenity, "I know it when I see it."

The same holds true when you're talking about women taking advantage of men.

So for each situation there will be its own circumstances.  I think it's OK for a woman to request reasonable financial help from her long term boyfriend/fiance/husband.  Like KenC mentioned an expensive gift on the first date should not be asked for.  And BTW it should not be offered either - it would put some respectable women in an uncomfortable situation where she is being given this expensive thing too early.

Going into this marriage business I had an open mind and a thought process that says I am moving forward to find my soulmate and I will share everything in my life with that woman.  Including my time, material posessions, and money.  But when these things take a bit of time.

I communicated with a few women via email and quickly weeded through their responses to my questions because like that judge said...  "I also know it when I see it"  Some were definitely concerned about the (financial) qualities I had rather than other qualities.

THE PROBLEM:  Some men DON'T SEE IT.  So if they are in doubt they should post their experience here and those of us that can "see it" will let them know they're being taken advantage of.

There is a great deal of truth and wisdom in what you say.  For those of us who are wholly blinded with love/lust to those of us who are too suspicious.

Cheers,

Christian

[Gator]

KenC,

How can you ever be 100% sure of a woman's intentions?  It is a feeling - basically the emotion, trust and understanding between the two of you.  You keep communicating all the time.  Impromptu tests happen all the time as part of life.  These either reinforce your feelings or they raise questions.

You make it seem as if not giving money is a litmus test.  I assert that there is much more involved in the decision about marriage other than she still stays with a man even though he does not give her support like a RM would.  Maybe she is so desperate to leave that she stays with him because he is the closest mule.  But you know that and I am not trying to twist your thoughts.

Actually, you and I agree more than you might think:

-  I agree 100% with you if the woman has no children and is supporting herself.  She did fine before you, and she can survive for a while longer.  Add children to the equation of Russian salaries for women, and things change.  Quality health care, proper nutrition, and decent boots become an issue.  It is not about a new Gucci bag.  KenC, you have a iconic marriage with a beautiful RW, yet you have probably zero experience with RW with children.

-  I also agree 100% if you are on a fast timetable to get her to America.  Deciding to live together, rather than marrying is different too because her expectations are to find someone to improve her life permanently, not just sleep with her and easily toss her away.

-  I also agree 100% if she asks for support.  The good RW wait for the man to act first.  And a RW asking for an expensive gift in the first few months of knowing each other is a really bad sign IMO.  But watch her jump with joy when you volunteer to buy her on the last day together a cell phone or a leather jacket to remember you.

In my opinion, whatever one does in a relationship is all about feelings and the particular situation.   If one has really good feelings that are reinforced every day, one should act accordingly. 

BTW, based on actual experience and projections, the periodic cost of supporting a RW in my case is about one fourth the cost of marrying her.  My friends think I had the best deal ever and question why I don't continue it.  Besides, there is no palimony in Russia.  Believe me, many of her friends told her that I was just using her, wasting her best years.  She answered, "He is not RM."

Also believe me that a woman with children is using the man's care and generosity as an indicator of whether she can depend on him in America.  A RW without children probably feels that che could take care of herself if the man is a cheapskate.  Responsibility for children changes that.

 

[Phil dAmore]

Attention Admin:  Ken's post should be required reading before anyone is permitted to sign up with RWD. 

[KenC]

KenC,

How can you ever be 100% sure of a woman's intentions?

You probably can never be 100% sure which is all the more important that you do not introduce money into the equation as it further clouds the issue.
 

It is a feeling - basically the emotion, trust and understanding between the two of you.  You keep communicating all the time.  Impromptu tests happen all the time as part of life.  These either reinforce your feelings or they raise questions

.
Of course, I agree

You make it seem as if not giving money is a litmus test.

 
I guess I do think so.  Once you introduce a regular payment for no other reason than to improve your girlfriend's lifestyle, you can never again be sure why she is with you.

I assert that there is much more involved in the decision about marriage other than she still stays with a man even though he does not give her support like a RM would.  Maybe she is so desperate to leave that she stays with him because he is the closest mule.  But you know that and I am not trying to twist your thoughts.

Of course what you say here is true but not really relevant.  There might be many other less than honorable reasons for her to stay with you too.

Actually, you and I agree more than you might think:

-  I agree 100% with you if the woman has no children and is supporting herself.  She did fine before you, and she can survive for a while longer.  Add children to the equation of Russian salaries for women, and things change.  Quality health care, proper nutrition, and decent boots become an issue.  It is not about a new Gucci bag.  KenC, you have a iconic marriage with a beautiful RW, yet you have probably zero experience with RW with children.

  Gator, of course you are correct that I have no experience with RW with children, but that hardly is the point here.  This might be a very fine point, but I see a huge difference between occasionally helping out with a medical emergency or giving generous gifts when together, I am strongly opposed to a regular stripend.  To me, that crosses the line and in effect makesyour girlfriend your employee.

-  I also agree 100% if you are on a fast timetable to get her to America.  Deciding to live together, rather than marrying is different too because her expectations are to find someone to improve her life permanently, not just sleep with her and easily toss her away.

So the length of time you spend romancing your lady makes a difference?  Why?  The "prize" should be you, and the improved lifestyle a side benefit.

-  I also agree 100% if she asks for support.  The good RW wait for the man to act first.  And a RW asking for an expensive gift in the first few months of knowing each other is a really bad sign IMO.  But watch her jump with joy when you volunteer to buy her on the last day together a cell phone or a leather jacket to remember you.

This is more my style too.

In my opinion, whatever one does in a relationship is all about feelings and the particular situation.   If one has really good feelings that are reinforced every day, one should act accordingly. 

Here I disagree.  It is not "all about feelings" it is about using your common sense too.  And sometimes common sense goes directly in the opposite way that your feelings may lead you.  Think with the big head as opposed to the little one.

BTW, based on actual experience and projections, the periodic cost of supporting a RW in my case is about one fourth the cost of marrying her.  My friends think I had the best deal ever and question why I don't continue it.  Besides, there is no palimony in Russia.  Believe me, many of her friends told her that I was just using her, wasting her best years.  She answered, "He is not RM."

  Interesting, but hardly relevant.

Also believe me that a woman with children is using the man's care and generosity as an indicator of whether she can depend on him in America.  A RW without children probably feels that she could take care of herself if the man is a cheapskate.  Responsibility for children changes that.

I agree that having children is a huge responsibility and that it has to be terribly difficult for a RW with little or no child support and the low wages ..........but it doesn't change anything.  If anything these burdens make it even more important for her to find a provider, not less.  Look, Gator, you will do and have done what you think is right and you do not have to agree with me.  I am of the opinion that once a man starts making regular payments to a woman, "the genie is out of the bottle" and you can never be sure what her reasons are for being with you.
KenC

[Makkin]

Ken,

  I agree with you 100% on the payment thing. I could never see myself paying a stipend or whatever you wish to call it as it's too close to something eles in my mind. But on the other hand it's each man to his own formula.

Makkin

[timothe]

My fiancee has a debit card that I gave her so she could send me her documents when and if she gets everything in order.  We've had to use it once to buy flowers when her grandfather died.  We'll probably have to use it again when she has to travel to Moskva for her interview.  It's much easier to leave her a debit card than to have to wire her money if there is an emergency.  And they are very easy to cancel and discard if things don't work out.

The monthly stipend, which I found out first hand as a big mistake, is definitely not a good idea.  Your just setting up the relationship to be the provider, not the lover. 

[Gator]

KenC,

I can not debate this with you because basically I agree with it for the majority of AM-RW couples.  Over the years, I recall a few anecdotes of RW accepting money for months and then terminating the realtionship when it was time for the embassy interview.   Some claim such RW may have had more than one suitor at a time.

It surprises me that you are so black and white.  I see much of life as gray.  In my mind there are exceptions.  Yes, men can get into trouble when they think they are the exception.

In taking this journey, which has a long way to go, I broke many rules and guidelines.  Then again, I credit many of my achievements in life to not following the rules, not taking the heavily traveled path, and not choosing the easy way.  Are not all men who seriously pursue RW the same?

A point that I was trying to make that you seem to have missed is that a woman takes a risk if the man is not filing a petition.  All she has are her feelings towards the man.  The small amount of money involved would not persuade a woman to stay committed if her primary goal were not the man but to get to the West.

I will know more when she arrives and settles in.  I have no concerns about her, just myself.

[KenC]

Gator,
The "black & white" thing comes from me being Russian.

The "other" Phil,
Thanks.
KenC

[2tallbill]

Ken, great thread!

If asked I would vote this to have at least sticky status maybe somehow put into the FAQs or something.

Bill

[AnastassiaAsh]

Great thread, Ken!

I wrote a lot on this topic in different threads and boards.

Just want to say my style is this - give me almost nothing before marriage and give me everything when i am your wife. If you are not sure and you haven't figured out my integrity by now, do not propose...

During a dating period me and Tim went out quite a bit, but I cooked for him even more! I tried to show him that i can cook myself and in such a way that he would always want seconds.  I can admit cooking is not my passion, but i still do it with pleasure knowing that it can make Tim even happier.

Yes, he paid for all the travelling expenses, always used to bring toys for my son Andre, flowers and other sweet things showing his attention, but it was never anything big that would make me feel uncomfortable.

It's funny to say this but this money issue that you might be suspicious of at the biginning can turn later into something opposite, when your 'frugal' Russian wife takes care of all your finances, because she just does it so much better than you!  You might actually become richer! Payback time...

Another true thing is - God will always trust you first with a little sum of money, depending on how you will spend it and how you will do with it, later He can bless you with a little more, and then more and more...You have to prove to Him that you are good with little, to be able to have more later and be good with it too... That is for both RW and AM, for everybody. This is how I look at it.