Money changes everything

[Christian]

I think KenC just touched on an interesting subject that would probably be worth a separate thread. How a man should behave if he is wealthy but wants to avoid golddiggers.

Good suggestion, Lily.  If Lena is frugal as KenC has stated, then the gold-digger should be a easy mark for him.

Christian

[KenC]

Ken, I have a feeling everything I post will be inspected under a microscope and scrutinized by certain posters but don't contradict yourself just to disagree with me. Did you or did you not expose your wealth and be who you are, rich, when in the FSU? I think any "good" woman would respect a man who does not flaunt his money in a attempt to win a woman's heart and look down at men who does attempt to expose his financial superiority to get the edge in the dating game.

Billy,
As Shadow pointed out, there is no contradiction between my two statements. Men should neither flaunt their wealth nor hide it IMO and never should they use it to "buy" their woman's favor.  The highlighted portion of your post

One thing guys can do to weed out some gold diggers if give the impression that he lives a normal life

implies that if the man is wealthy, he should deceive the RW into thinking he is not.  I just do not agree with your methods of not being totally honest with the women.  The gamesmanship you seem to promote is not a good basis for a long lasting relationship IMO.  I was always open and honest with Lena then and now.
KenC

[Photo Guy]

The western mentality is skewed with western images of what is enriching, while all the while leaving the individual untouched.  This is far from what a traditional Russian would consider as such.  In fact the simple and sincere conversations which two people share is key to unlocking the full beauty of her as well as yourself.

Christian

That's a beautiful post.  ...and you've never been to the FSU.
I could say you do not know what you are talking about,
but I won't.  Unfortunately, there are RW who do not fit
into your definition of 'traditional' and those are probably the
ones to avoid.   

[Gator]

KenC,

I do not see a conceptual difference between Billy saying to not disclose a wealthy lifestyle and your saying not to give a woman money.   

Both could be contradictory to one's true nature, and if so, are part of a test to verify the woman's true motivation.

[KenC]

KenC,

I do not see a conceptual difference between Billy saying to not disclose a wealthy lifestyle and your saying not to give a woman money.   

Both could be contradictory to one's true nature, and if so, are part of a test to verify the woman's true motivation.

Gator,
I disagree.  I think there is a huge difference.  Let me explain.  When Billy said:

One thing guys can do to weed out some gold diggers if give the impression that he lives a normal life

To me, Billy is promoting for men of wealth to hide it or deceive the women into thinking they are not wealthy. 

I say "be a man" and be who you are.  If you are wealthy, don't hide it, but that doesn't mean she should have it (the money) either.

Getting back to the original idea in my opening post; a man would not pay his AW girlfriend a stripen to be his girlfriend, would he?  Be honest and who you are.  I was generous to my American girlfriends with gifts and entertainment, as I was with Lena too, but I didn't pay any of them for the privlidge of being their boyfriend.
KenC

[BillyB]

Rich and/or famous people are a magnet for insincere people such as phony friends and phony women who pretend they are in love. It is not a deception because a person in this instance wanting to keep a low profile.

The world is not black and white when it comes to deception and honesty. Just as an American spy(I respect the job he's doing) has to keep his identity hidden to avoid assassination from enemies, a person in a financial position who'd attract gold diggers should not tip his hand either... unless gold diggers are what he wants to attract.

There's much more foolishness in disclosing your financial situation if it's stellar than not discolosing and one is more likely to bring deception into his life instead a good woman.

What a woman needs to know FIRST about her man financially is that he can financially support a family, has good work ethics to maintain a job, has good job skills to find another job if he loses the one he has, and will always be a dependable person through tough financial times. Money comes and goes but good work ethics and job skills can stay with you throughout life.

It's okay if a woman is looking for a financially stable man. Who does not want a better life? Certainly I wouldn't want a woman who is satisfied living in a tent. But her motives for wanting a better life may be sincere or insincere and that's what needs to be determined. Hard to determine if the motives of a woman is sincere or insincere if one exposes(not flaunt) his wealth too soon.

[KenC]

Rich and/or famous people are a magnet for insincere people such as phony friends and phony women who pretend they are in love. It is not a deception because a person in this instance wanting to keep a low profile.

Billy,
It is a decpetion if it is not the truth.  However you may now be changing your stance as I see it.  Here you seem to be saying not to flaunt your wealth, which is what I said before.  But when you said:

One thing guys can do to weed out some gold diggers if give the impression that he lives a normal life

it appears as you are recommending a wealthy man to deceive the woman into thinking he is not by hiding his wealth.

Billy,
Please accept the fact that I do not agree with you and please do not sidetrack this thread because of it.
KenC

[Gator]

KenC,

We must agree again to disagree.  I was honest with regard to my lifestyle and with regard to my personality.  

I didn't pay any of them for the privlidge of being their boyfriend.

Nor did I.  Nevertheless, I am generous and caring, so I gave money monthly to improve her welfare.  It elevated their lifestyle to about 20 levels below mine.

I did not hide my true nature.  I was who I am.   I still do not understand how a real man would turn his back to the situation of a single mama in the FSU and not want to do something to help.  I could never say, "Too bad for now, but your life will be much better when we marry...trust me."

Similarly, I did not hide my wealth, nor did I tout it, and I never flaunt it (I have only one car, a 10 -year old American car).  When meeting RW on three scouting trips (WMVM), I have disclosed to RW simply that they will not need to work.  Some liked that, some did not.  

Photos of my glorious house (which all want to see) came out after a couple good days together.  Their reaction was always interesting but never did it change their thinking from what I could observe.  It seems that my long telephone calls had already separated out those who would be chasing only money.

[KenC]

Gator,
You have my utmost respect.  You didn't play any games and you were who you are in real life.  That I can respect.  I understand your position on helping out the woman you love but giving a regularly scheduled payment just goes against my nature and I could never do it.  I could provide many things of value to make my woman's life better, but a cash transaction is not one of them.  We will have to agree to disagree here, yes.
KenC

[Gator]

KenC,

...scheduled payment just goes against my nature...

The initial meeting with Lena may never have happened, but I bet your nature would have changed if Lena had a couple of adorable young ones who played and laughed with you.

Note:  I have been confined to the house for a week with a bad back, and my time at RWD has increased to the point that I am belaboring stuff and making comments in areas where I normally avoid.  Next week, hopefully you will see a return to normal.

Dan, if you are reading this.  I hope everything went well today.

[BillyB]

Billy,
Please accept the fact that I do not agree with you and please do not sidetrack this thread because of it.

For the last three weeks everyone has notice the "fact" you disagree with me ever since I supported locking some of the threads that you were party to. WE never had this problem for years before then. "Unecessary" comments like the one you just made to make me look like a bad guy sidetracking threads will only get more threads locked. More bait you're putting out? I have zero tolerance for the childish games being played here. Do you finally get it? I've received PM's from people who read but don't post because they have better things to do than get into a shouting match with guys who act like kids.

My last post didn't quote you and wasn't designed to debate specifically you but to speak to the forum as a whole. Don't be sensitive and don't take offense and don't accuse me of sidetracking a thread when I'm on topic.

[Makkin]

Hi,

  Making a stipend or payment is something that I will never do because it's not something I feel would help me to feel as if the lady has an interest in me alone.
  Many women won't accept the stipend and many will so how can a man be sure about her intentions? He can watch closely and see what takes place and analyze her actions but in the end will you really know the truth?
  No...I will never arrange to pay a woman whome I'm dating for her living expenses while she is in Ukraine or Russia. If Gator feels he can do that and be comfortable with that situation then it's fine for him and hopefully everything works out well for him. I don't think it's bad for him if he feels a different way than myself.
  After study of the women on the last trip it's very clear that prices are high now in Ukraine and perhaps they need more money but for all the life they have led it seems they have survived this long and if I were to inject a cash flow then it seems as if it may be for the wrong reasons in my mind and totally without faith,hope,and the willingness to sustain themselves until we are an official couple or married. My production of another income is something I see that would hurt my chances in future. FWIW.

Makkin

[KenC]

For the last three weeks everyone has notice the "fact" you disagree with me ever since I supported locking some of the threads that you were party to.

Oh really Billy?  You must be a mod then!
 

WE never had this problem for years before then. "Unecessary" comments like the one you just made to make me look like a bad guy sidetracking threads will only get more threads locked. More bait you're putting out?

This post of yours is a perfect example of you sidetracking a thread and whining because someone doesn't agree with you.  I have very politely asked you not to do this and you persist in making this the "BillyB show" yet again.
 

I have zero tolerance for the childish games being played here. Do you finally get it?

That you are acting like a spoiled child?  Yes, I get it loud and clear.
 

I've received PM's from people who read but don't post because they have better things to do than get into a shouting match with guys who act like kids.

Who's shouting Billy?  It is you that is crying here because someone doesn't agree with YOU.

My last post didn't quote you and wasn't designed to debate specifically you but to speak to the forum as a whole. Don't be sensitive and don't take offense and don't accuse me of sidetracking a thread when I'm on topic.

You were directly addressing my response to your advice for men to hide their wealth.  Billy, you really do need to get over yourself, people will disagree with your point of view on occasion and you need to learn to deal with it.  Take a note from Gator and my disagreement for a clue to how that can be done.
KenC

[BillyB]

Ken, plenty of people in this thread disagreed with me in the proper way. They are also smart enough to know not to taunt an angry bull. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of red and I have that right. People aren't dumb and they clearly see the way you've been debating me the last few weeks compared to others. You debate the same way you did those other posters where threads got locked. It's a never ending cycle.

You're here morning, noon and night harrassing others. Maybe it's best you take a break and be a husband for a while.

This is my last post in your thread. It's all yours.

[KenC]

Welcome to the BillyB show, it is all about HIM!

Ken, plenty of people in this thread disagreed with me in the proper way.

You had better read back Billy as I have been nothing but cordial to you here.  Any more nicer and we would be going steady.
 

They are also smart enough to know not to taunt an angry bull. Right now, I'm seeing a lot of red and I have that right.

That, Billy is your problem, not mine.
 

People aren't dumb and they clearly see the way you've been debating me the last few weeks compared to others. You debate the same way you did those other posters where threads got locked.

I asked for clarification, you know, for the "BillyB rules" and I got them.  Deal with it.

It's a never ending cycle.

What is a never ending cycle is your inability to accept that others do not agree with you.

You're here morning, noon and night harrassing others. Maybe it's best you take a break and be a husband for a while.

  Says the man with no wife.

This is my last post in your thread. It's all yours.

Oh thank you BillyB, when did you change your identity to Dan?
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

I'm seeing a lot of red

BillyB, i have always found most of your posts really close to my thoughts. But i think you are overreacting, I don't think KenC gave you big reasons, both in this thread and others. At least i don't see it. I spent a whole hour today reading another thread and frankly couldn't see KenC insulting you that harshly as you are making it look if any. And this thread is falling apart too. I have absolutely no personal or concealed reasons to be for or against either of you, but i am trying to be just looking from outside on to the situation. The one who will stop 'reacting' and calms down will be the wisest.

[Faux Pas]

KenC

I'm a "freshman" looking to file information away for later in case I need it. Two things. I do agree with your statement about trying to buy ones way into a RW's life (or something to that effect). I wouldn't do it but I've never done that sort of thing with AW either. I'm confident I couldn't be manipulated into buying expensive gifts or fleeced for cash in hopes of developing a relationship. But like Dave if "I" felt compelled to buy a lady a gift or help her financially, I would. Certainly, any woman who felt I had to buy them a gift would be barking up the wrong tree.

The other thing is, flaunting wealth is not an option for me as I am not wealthy. Great job, great salary, some savings and a bright future but certainly not wealthy. You state you would not hide your wealth, are you saying on your first trip or subsequent trips you made full disclosure of your finances? This is an honest question. I have been married once and that woman is the only one that had full disclosure of my finances. That was 16 years ago and thankfully my situation has much improved since then. My point is that, I've had many (long term AW) relationships since that time and my financial status isn't something I disclosed to them or anyone except my professional financial people. I do very well but not wealthy, I do not flaunt or project it. But by your logic I am dishonest. Would I be perceived as dishonest by a RW found out after marriage I was in much better financial condition than she previously thought?

One other thing, If you don't hide wealth or excessive wealth isn't this golddigger bait in the FSU? It certainly is in the USA

[KenC]

KenC

I'm a "freshman" looking to file information away for later in case I need it. Two things. I do agree with your statement about trying to buy ones way into a RW's life (or something to that effect). I wouldn't do it but I've never done that sort of thing with AW either. I'm confident I couldn't be manipulated into buying expensive gifts or fleeced for cash in hopes of developing a relationship. But like Dave if "I" felt compelled to buy a lady a gift or help her financially, I would. Certainly, any woman who felt I had to buy them a gift would be barking up the wrong tree.

The other thing is, flaunting wealth is not an option for me as I am not wealthy. Great job, great salary, some savings and a bright future but certainly not wealthy. You state you would not hide your wealth, are you saying on your first trip or subsequent trips you made full disclosure of your finances? This is an honest question. I have been married once and that woman is the only one that had full disclosure of my finances. That was 16 years ago and thankfully my situation has much improved since then. My point is that, I've had many (long term AW) relationships since that time and my financial status isn't something I disclosed to them or anyone except my professional financial people. I do very well but not wealthy, I do not flaunt or project it. But by your logic I am dishonest. Would I be perceived as dishonest by a RW found out after marriage I was in much better financial condition than she previously thought?

One other thing, If you don't hide wealth or excessive wealth isn't this golddigger bait in the FSU? It certainly is in the USA

Faux Pas,
Thanks for joining the discussion here.  You ask some very good questions too.

Of course I didn't disclose my full financial status to Lena early on if you mean a balance sheet and income statements.  You need to just be honest and forthright as I am sure you were with the AW you dated.  But there is no need to talk dollars and cents about anything intially.  What you said here is a great start:

I am not wealthy. Great job, great salary, some savings and a bright future but certainly not wealthy.

You do not need to be much different than you would be if you were dating an AW.  Notice I said not much different.  There is a difference though.  The man needs to be able to show the woman that he can provide a good life for her in a different way than he would to an AW.  An AW has the advantage of seeing your car, your house, and knowing where you work and what that means financially speaking.  A RW doesn't have these advantages so some disclosure is necessary.  I hope that answered your questions.
KenC

[KenC]

Faux Pas,
Sorry, I forgot to answer your last question:

One other thing, If you don't hide wealth or excessive wealth isn't this golddigger bait in the FSU? It certainly is in the USA

Yes, men with money will always attract gold diggers.  But like I said upthread, men with money are used to women going for their gold and can usually spot them rather quickly.  I had one AW even run a credit report on me while I was dating her!  Geez!
KenC

[KenC]

KenC,
 

The initial meeting with Lena may never have happened, but I bet your nature would have changed if Lena had a couple of adorable young ones who played and laughed with you.
Note:  I have been confined to the house for a week with a bad back, and my time at RWD has increased to the point that I am belaboring stuff and making comments in areas where I normally avoid.  Next week, hopefully you will see a return to normal.

Dan, if you are reading this.  I hope everything went well today.

Gator,
Sorry I missed this post with some other distractions.

You know I dated a lot of AW that had children and I learned early on in my new bachlorhood not to get too close with the little buggers.  I usually ended up liking the kids better than the momma.   It is too easy for me to say what I would do or wouldn't do in the hypothetical situation you propose, but the reality of it is I do not know.

I hope your back gets better soon as well as I also wish Dan a speedy recovery.
KenC

[Misha]

I had one AW even run a credit report on me while I was dating her!  Geez!
KenC

On one of the Russian-language sites for Russian women looking for WM, the women were exchanging hints as to how to find out all they could about their suitors. One of the recommended sites: http://www.intelius.com/. So there are probably a few RW who did a background search and credit report on their WM  Likewise other suggestions included how to get a man's address: tell him you want to send him a small gift and then do a search on google world to see if he lives in a nice house or a trailer  One should never underestimate a RW LOL 

[Faux Pas]

KenC

Yes you did partially. Thanks. The part I'm little confused on is the disclosure itself. I'm not sure that from your point of view concerning the RW's point of view if I would be construed as dishonest. Let me explain. I live a much more modest lifestyle than I need to. I raised 2 children and put them through college as a single father, the whole bit. During that time I couldn't afford the finer things and consequently never really had a desire to acquire them. My personal financial picture has improved tremendously and my expenditures went down as you could imagine.

I actually down graded in a house because I no longer needed one for for a family at the time. As a hobby I buy a house, live in it and fix it up and sell it. It's not my day job. Not a flipper per se', just something I enjoy doing in my own time. My truck which I use very sparingly is 13 yrs old and my car I use daily for work 5 years old. I think you can see where this is going. Make no mistake, I'm not frugal and certainly couldn't be considered stingy. I do enjoy life, go out, take trips and buy for my loved ones. I'm just not a "flashy" type personality. From outward appearances, I would seem like an average guy with possibly less than average worth. I kind of like it that way. Nobody knows my entire portfolio and probably never will until I'm dead. I think some of life's hard lessons made me this way. I don't believe that makes me dishonest in the eyes of AW. I did gather from some of your earlier posts that you believe a RW might consider me dishonest.

For clarification I am doing the WOVO. I have corresponded with many and been prodded many times. Some with subtle questions and others taking the sledge hammer approach. I never mind the questions because they're curious as to whom they're dealing with. But I am vague in the answers and much more vague in person.

On the subject of gold diggers, I can vouch they're are some very, very good AW gold diggers and I am sure FSU has it's fair share as well. Sometimes we can't see them coming no matter how good we may be.

[KenC]

Faux Pas,
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my previous post so, I will try again.

Because the RW is at a disadvantage because she cannot experience exactly how you live, it is up to you to inform her.  I think a RW deserves much more information than an AW because she will need to put much at risk before she comes here.  In commiting to a K-1 she will have to quit her job, maybe sell her apartment and household goods etc.  You need to make sure she understands she will be taken care of in her new life with you.  She needs to feel secure in you as a provider.  That doesn't mean that you have to account to her for every dollar you have invested or provide her with a copy of your tax return or your bank statement.  (That will come later after marriage)
KenC

[MaxxumUSA]

In defense of maxxum's situation, he did come here once implying he was a time of his life where he is financially struggling and may lose everything. His wife, then fiancee, remained by his side throughout his struggles. Got to respect that.

I'm sure it's on most men's minds that if they ever get in the position of financial struggle or even finacial disaster, will his wife stay and support or leave? Hard to know the true answer to that question until it actually happens.

Yes - this did happen.  I have the best woman in the world.

I restrained myself during this thread to remind everybody of this because I would hope that most men here with a good RW would have the support that I had.

I can see that the billyB - KenC conflict is still alive.  I hope you boys work it out sometime soon.  I can't speak for any other members first hand but from my POV the whole conflict is tiring.  Getting old.

For the record I have no problem with either of you...  just wish the kid stuff would end.

- Maxxum

[Gator]

Maxxum,

I can't speak for any other members first hand but from my POV the whole conflict is tiring.  Getting old.

I imagine if you took a poll, 90% of the readers would say the same.