Money changes everything

[Misha]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/35097/top_reasons_people_divorce.html and other resources place financial difficulties as one of the top divorce drivers, or at least places stress on relationships that may break the camel's back. 

I can imagine the feeling my wife would have had if I were forced to say, No.. we can't afford for you to visit back home or for your parents to come here.  No, we can't afford to spend a few grand to outfit a baby room, -in fact we can't even afford a baby. No, your new clothes will have to wait until we pay off the credit cards we used for your tickets.  And no, we can't go to the amusement park this weekend because I'm working OT to make sure we can pay the second mortgage I took out to try a few socials and pay the agencies to find you in the first place.

This is another perspective on why men and women divorce based on a poll commissioned by divorce360.com: "When looked at separately, men and women were divided on what they saw as the reasons for their divorces. Women overwhelmingly said they made the decision to divorce because of abuse issues with a response rate of 48 percent. But 23 percent of men said the reasons they divorced were based on money. Another 22 percent of men cited sex as the reason for the divorce." (source: http://www.divorce360.com/articles/169/poll-why-do-partners-leave.aspx)

As for spending, a good couple will be able to plan together their expenses and will be able to make compromises that are acceptable to both and will set goals that will please both as well. There should be full disclosure prior to the wedding, but there should be a full partnership after the wedding.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Well, I personally pay attention to how much a man earns because most often than not (again there are exceptions) such people have a bouquet of personal qualities I respect and adore: organized, good thinker, thoughtful, good planner, wise, respected, overacheaver, goal oriented....I would like to think I possess these qualities too and would want to be together only with an equal person or much better. If I have X amount of money earned and saved, my husband MUST have 5X amount of money or more. There is no way in the world I even correspond with men who earn 1/2X....this is called self-esteem, knowledge of self worth.

When two people differ very much even just in this aspect, there is a bigger chance for a failure in marriage. US is the land of opportunities, we all know this, also we know that lots of Russian people, moved here some years ago, are now very successful and even more so sometimes than Americans themselves. It is much better and easier to earn money in this country than in Russia. If one cannot do it here, then, what can I say, he is not a 'winner'. This is like 2x2=4 or "I already put some food in your mouth, you just have to chew it." Those people who live in Russia and are successful there - double respect and admiration for them! Put Americans in Russian's environment - very very few will survive. I, for one, was pretty successful, I didn't have any financial problems, I was pretty comfortable working much less hours than average and earning several times more than average. If i only was born in the US and had all the successes in education and in finances that i had back in Moscow, I would be doing six figures right now some where in Microsoft too! I met some people there, both Russians and Americans, I knew how smart my late husband was, I know 'what it takes' to work there. I compare that to myself and this is the answer I come to. I am not worse, I don't know less, my work ethics is not worse - I could have done it! So i am just choosing a man who would complement me or is even better than me. Why should I degrade and have bad examples in front of me and my child while it is only natural to want the best, the best that I deserve. I am not shooting for a billionaire or millionaire for that matter, but definitely better than average. Because I am better than average where ever I am in the US or Russia.

Somebody said that If money is that important for a woman then a man should also pay more attention to the size of her boobs', well, yes, please, do, because if you ARE successful you deserve to have a great woman in all aspects AND with the size you want 'them' to be. This is good, not shallow. Shallow is when a man thinks only about boobs, everything else is not important or so so. Other wise it is not shallow, it's called taste, attraction. But a man has to really decide how much that matters to him. Because if this is desirable, and the lady has met the list of things he would desire in her but only this 'size' aspect - then probably it will be wise to still choose a lady. Because it is much better to be married with a woman whose size is small and in everything else she is a 10, rather than to be with a woman whose size is C-D but in everything else she is 6-7. Be realistic with this the same way as we, women, are realistic with your success.

Faux Pas, I don't think you understand where I am coming from. I never said that happiness is equated to income in these international relationships. I would say that happiness can be achieved if two people choose their equal, yes, and financially too. If two people are from the same country, on the same ground, then if she earns 60K she should not marry a man who earns 30K, this is ridiculous in my book. But the opposite is ok, if she earns 30K and marries a man who earns 60K, good for her, she must be a 9/10 in all other aspects. It is hard to compare financial success in Russia and the US, of course figures are much smaller in Russia. But if you compare her income or savings in Russia to a general medium or good income and savings in Russia, then you will understand where she stands on the schale in that environment. I think that is fair. Because if a woman is successful in Russia, when she is here in the US you won't have to wait too long to see her success expressed in US dollars. You will be pleasantly surprised even.

It is so easy just to think about 'love', 'passion', how people complement each other in their characters....it takes courage and good deal of 'soberness' to actually pass that and think about financial situation of your future family and ensure that that reason will not be the one that will cause your life to be miserable. If you are the man, provide for her well, treat her as a queen, and you will be the happiest man in the world. Those pieces of jewelry that you give us make us feel also happy because we know that you care, because it is important for us, and we will cherish those forever. We are not materialistic at all, we just want to be treated as we think we deserve in this life and what will you get back? More than you could ever see in your wildest dreams! I am sure most married men haven't even thought that such a level of love, devotion and sacrifice exists...

[mischief]

A man should have at least an average income for the state he lives in, good health insurance and some savings for 4-6 months of adjustment... I see how Lily's post can be the music to some guy's ears but let's get realistic...
you need some money for all the paperwork and it got even more expensive since last year... since the spouse can't go to work without work permission... she will need driver's licence and if English is not good, she will need English classes... calculate the cost there... consider she is moving away from family, friends and everything she used to and it gets lonely ... so you will need to take some time off just to be there for her... to do some travelling, or any fun stuff to ease the pain of adjustment... plus all the things BC wrote especially if you are planning to have a baby...  
you don't have to be rich but having a little extras is probably a must...

[Bluebell]

We are not materialistic at all, we just want to be treated as we think we deserve in this life and what will you get back? More than you could ever see in your wildest dreams! I am sure most married men haven't even thought that such a level of love, devotion and sacrifice exists...

Well, yes, after making sure that his income is at least 5x more than what we could ever earn, yes, we can speak gladly about sacrifices.   

[Misha]

Well, yes, after making sure that his income is at least 5x more than what we could ever earn, yes, we can speak gladly about sacrifices.   

This is starting to be a bit surreal. Let's take these numbers. A woman who earns even a low salary should be able to earn at least $20,000 per year. So, this again brings us to the idea that a man should earn at least $100,000. However, after some years, a Russian woman should earn at least $30,000-$40,000. So following the logic, she should then trade up to a husband that will earn $150,000-$200,000 per year?

[Bluebell]

This is starting to be a bit surreal. Let's take these numbers. A woman who earns even a low salary should be able to earn at least $20,000 per year. So, this again brings us to the idea that a man should earn at least $100,000. However, after some years, a Russian woman should earn at least $30,000-$40,000. So following the logic, she should then trade up to a husband that will earn $150,000-$200,000 per year?

Probably this is where we are supposed to make the sacrifice, not divorcing you when you earn only $100,000 

[Misha]

Probably this is where we are supposed to make the sacrifice, not divorcing you when you earn only $100,000 

If you look at the stats for the United States, you see that only a small fraction of the population makes more than 100k per year: only 7% of individuals will earn more than $100,000 according to the US Census Bureau (via Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States).

[AnastassiaAsh]

Guys, please, don't exaggerate, this is not a formula, don't jump on it or on any of my words, don't take them out of the context. Those figures are just an example. Man can earn 2X or 5X or 10X, it doesn't matter, he just has to make more than a woman in general. It can be X+10K or whatever...

[catzenmouse]

Anastassia,

 Thanks for the clarification. I took your post exactly the way the others did and my first thought was that this sounded just like a lot of AW who believe they are entitled to be taken care of. Exactly the type of person I (and perhaps many or most here) avoid like the plague.

Ken

[Bluebell]

While I agree in some points with Anastassia's post, this type of monetary expectation doesn't really sound to me as a healthy basis for a love relationship.
I don't deny the importance of money at all and I too am not impressed by those people who reaching a certain age, are still penniless or struggling with debts like a 20 something, but when every single day 20,000 children die in the world from  starvation, these discussions about how much money could make a woman happy, or how much money a man should earn to qualify for the love of some ladies, are a bit sad and as gabaub said, surreal.

[mischief]

Man can earn 2X or 5X or 10X, it doesn't matter, he just has to make more than a woman in general. It can be X+10K or whatever...

WHY??? I would LOVE to make more than my husband... if now I could make at least the same amount of money as my husband does, we both would be happy to switch with me going to work and him staying with the kids...

[AnastassiaAsh]

Women are entitled to this in the same way men are entitled to that... I am not sure entitled is a good word here. Maybe 'deserve' is better...

[Daveman]

Anastassia,

 Thanks for the clarification. I took your post exactly the way the others did and my first thought was that this sounded just like a lot of AW who believe they are entitled to be taken care of. Exactly the type of person I (and perhaps many or most here) avoid like the plague.

Ken

Agreed Ken..
I think the difference here is more or less that a man and woman each bring something to the relationship which takes care of each other.  That's a complex topic really with money being merely one tool in the box of a successful relationship. 

Every woman (and man) deserves to be taken care of by a partner, but that "lifestyle entitlement" aspect is what seems surreal.  The "treasures" of life are as varied as the individuals. Some value material wealth and that's fine, well, and good. 

One things which is absolutely true in this world is that we don't *really* want the money, or cars, or whatever - we want the emotions/feelings we derive from them - those 'feel good' feelings in life.
Some derive it from material things only, and then some derive it from relations etc. only. Opposite ends of the spectrum.  I believe the best relationships are those with a healthy, balanced focus - between two people with a well matched value system who share the same ideals of "life's treasures".  A mismatch here is almost certain relationship death.

Dave


edit: if you follow the course of this thread, you can easily see toward which ends of the spectrum values lie.  Where on the spectrum is neither a good nor bad thing, but finding that well matched partner on the spectrum is astronomically important - on many levels.

[catzenmouse]

Women are entitled to this in the same way men are entitled to that... I am not sure entitled is a good word here. Maybe 'deserve' is better...

I think we're getting the meaning of entitled crossed here.

One of the problems that I see with Americans in general is that many of them believe that they are entitled to have what they want without doing anything to earn it. Kind of like children who want something that they see another child has and they don't care that it is not theirs or that they have been told that they cannot have it. They see it, they want it, so they are entitled to have it.

The radical feminist agenda has many AW believing in this type of thinking.

[Curious_George]

One of the problems that I see with Americans in general is that many of them believe that they are entitled to have what they want without doing anything to earn it.
. . . .
The radical feminist agenda has many AW believing in this type of thinking.

It is a two-way street, you know.

P.S. I do not believe there is any significant difference between AW and RW or whateverW.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Agreed Ken..
I think the difference here is more or less that a man and woman each bring something to the relationship which takes care of each other.  That's a complex topic really with money being merely one tool in the box of a successful relationship. 

Every woman (and man) deserves to be taken care of by a partner, but that "lifestyle entitlement" aspect is what seems surreal.  The "treasures" of life are as varied as the individuals. Some value material wealth and that's fine, well, and good. 

One things which is absolutely true in this world is that we don't *really* want the money, or cars, or whatever - we want the emotions/feelings we derive from them - those 'feel good' feelings in life.
Some derived it from material things only, and then some derived it from relations etc. only. Opposite ends of the spectrum.  I believe the best relationships are those with a healthy, balanced focus - between two people with a well matched value system who share the same ideals of "life's treasures".  A mismatch here is almost certain relationship death.

Dave

Very good post, Daveman, thank you very much. You worded what was spinning in my mind and what is a given to me.

I just concentrated on this one thing in the thread about money and some started thinking that I don't appreciate other things or that they are not important. I will tell you that a man's success is 5th or 8th on my list in comparison to other things. But for me personally a man should meet all 10 points, and 'success' is just one of those.

[catzenmouse]

It is a two-way street, you know.

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean?

P.S. I do not believe there is any significant difference between AW and RW or whateverW.

In many ways there are no differences as a woman is a woman but I do feel that there are some very significant differences in FSUW compared to AW. If there weren't then why would we even be here?

Ken

[Jumper]

Well i see a lot of justifications and flip flopping,, and of course it can be a sensitive subject.
 
Lets try agan to cut to the chase after 20 pages ?
and answer the obvious big question already brought up?


Both western society, and FSU culture, have "averages"
in regard to family income.
They are pretty accurate, for the general public of both places,
 and are nowhere near the 6 figure salaries bantered around earlier.
(and its been shown that roughly 7% of the population in the west would be in that range)

So (daves and others)  question remains unanswered in this thread
as to WHY avarage income isn't enough for succes or happiness.
it defines the majority of  people in both places afterall?

 when two people of the two cultures meet, lets assume
they are in the average incomes for thier respective locations as a basis.
They are both living normal lives of the people, in thier respective countries right?

So WHY , would this be a factor at all?
(other than the obvious needs to be able to afford relocation and other associated things)

The only thing that really stands out as any argement
is that a FSU  woman , would NOT want to relocate for a man she loved,
 if her lifestyle remained the same as in the FSU.,
(as she would miss her family/friends/culture etc)

fine we can accept that bitter pill
(but lets be honest and admit it for what it is)

and I'm not going to remain completely PC here ,
There ARE exceptions, but in general ,the average FSU lady that  a western man will meet ,is certainly going to be better off finacially in the west, with most any man of even average income, with the *means* to truly  pursue her. ..
additionally the level of oppurtunity increases dramaticaly for her ,and any children., if she chooses to apply herself ,
just like she would need to , if remaining in her home country

(so of course no, it is not a mystery why lilys post is refreshing?)

Arnt wetalking about marriage? two people that really connect?
she is hopefully marrying a man she loves, and her lifestyle and oppurtunity will be above the average she had in her home country.

This thread continues to strongly imply that just isn't good enough.

so please lets answer the "why" is that??

I am really curious.
As no , i did not run into this with any AW  i was involved with in my life..
if they came from a typical average western family  background,
 they did not somehow expect the man they fell in love wth,
 to just somehow be one that was  well beyond that..
Thier expectation was to have the same lifestyle they were used to
and work together   towards an even brighter  future.

 My wife ,who happens to be RW, feels the same and looks at this the same.
and her living with me was  certainly not a downgrade ,as both she and her family who we help , live better now.
as bluebell mentioned , she could have held out for some ogilarch or millionare... or prince in white mercedes
I would not blame her, why not?

The missing truth here seems to be-
an average western salary ,typically provides a nice home, newer cars,
and family vacations,
so the expectations infered here,  seem strange.
I understand painfully well that my wife made  huge sacrifices in leaving all she has known,,family and friends..
and she has all my love and admiration for that(she knows i also made many sacrifices) I would dearly love to provide my wife a well above average lifestyle,
and a palace to live in,
 at the moment it is like most western families, we have a good life and work together to make things better!
  it does not seem so bad to either of us,
and funny, i do not remember the palace my RW lived in,  
and I guess i should be  glad she has forgotten about  it as well..
 

 I guess  i am way more of a hopeless romantic ,than i ever pictured
myself to be  


This thread makes me both a little sad at the reality that i know commonly exists in these scenerios-
but also amazingly appreciative and happy of what i have.
 

[AnastassiaAsh]

While I agree in some points with Anastassia's post, this type of monetary expectation doesn't really sound to me as a healthy basis for a love relationship.
I don't deny the importance of money at all and I too am not impressed by those people who reaching a certain age, are still penniless or struggling with debts like a 20 something, but when every single day 20,000 children die in the world from  starvation, these discussions about how much money could make a woman happy, or how much money a man should earn to qualify for the love of some ladies, are a bit sad and as gabaub said, surreal.

I just want to clarify and show you a bigger picture here. We tithe 10% of all of our income every month, we donate lots of things and try to help people in church. The money that we tithe go to some different projects helping local people and children. I have participated in organizing several 'dinners for poor' downtown Seattle...This is something that is reasonable and possible to do, this is a Christian way of doing it...Back in Russia I used to share with an orphanage that was 10 min away from my house.

So, what about you? I am sure you guys are doing something of the kind...How did you help those 20,000 children? Do you tithe? Just curious...

[Jumper]

i wanted to add:
 yes, we can name examples like the western man in the doublewide.,
but that again is an exception and  rarity ,and does not reflect the average western man tha thas the funds to complete this process.




Nastya, i think bluebells point wasnt about starving children,
or donations made to their betterment?
 it was an eaxample,,
 it was in asking the  *why* an average Western income is
considered not enough for an average russian women ,
when of course it is adequate  for most AW , as they are living it afterall.

It's a good question,  deseves a straight answer,
but i dont see any from anyone ..

i see alot of , wel it's a complex issue etc etc etc,,

maybe it is uncomfortable to just spell it out.., i dont know.

[Curious_George]

I am saying that AM carry the same air of entitlement that they ascribe to AW.  They are entitled to a bride XXteen years younger who is interested only in his personality. God forbit, she is interested in how much money he makes.  

There something odd about picking a country and only then looking for a person to fall in love with. Frequently, it is a case of self-induced love on demand ... and budget.

I have a lot of respect for AW and very little respect for people who belittle their fellow countrymen and women.

See Serebro's post about why guys would seek foreign brides.

[Jumper]

Nice stereotyping-  curious george,
bravo.

now many of us here do not fit into it..so what then?

for myself, i have nothing but good experiences with AW,
respect them , and did not set out to marry one particular nationality at the exclusion of all others..

[Misha]

as bluebell mentioned , she could have held out for some ogilarch or millionare... or prince in white mercedes
I would not blame her, why not?

I would not blame her, but the odds are pretty good that she would be still single. The fact of the matter is that there aren't that many oligarchs in Russia. We can quibble over the numbers, but the reality would still be that there are many, many more young attractive women than very, very wealthy men in Russia. At some point, even some of those very, very attractive women will have to settle for a man who is not an oligarch and will have to lower their expectations.  

[catzenmouse]

I am saying that AM carry the same air of entitlement that they ascribe to AW.  They are entitled to a bride XXteen years younger who is interested only in his personality. God forbit, she is interested in how much money he makes.

  I'll happily grant that the attitude of entitlement is not confined to AW. Plenty of folks have that attitude.

There something odd about picking a country and only then looking for a person to fall in love with. Frequently, it is a case of self-induced love on demand ... and budget.

 Sorry, I basically fell into this accidentally as I had not considered (and was not searching overseas) when I got my first scammer letter that made me think "why not" expand the search.

I have a lot of respect for AW and very little respect for people who belittle their fellow countrymen and women.

See Serebro's post about why guys would seek foreign brides.

Do you have that same respect for AW who belittle AM? How about for those AW who would only speak with you or date you after she saw your car/house/bank account? Or those who complain about there being no good men left while they continue to drool over the hot guy in the fancy car while ignoring the decent guy who they work with?

FWIW before I met my wife I had long term relationships with a Puerto Rican lady (same age as me), a Brazillian lady (9 years older than I am), and a Yugoslavian lady (same age as me) and finally I was married to a Canadian lady (1 year younger than me) so I guess I should now ask for your forgiveness for ending up with a wonderful woman who is several years younger than me.

Ken

[Curious_George]

Nice stereotyping-  curious george,
bravo.

now many of us here do not fit into it..so what then?

for myself, i have nothing but good experiences with AW,
respect them , and did not set out to marry one particular nationality at the exclusion of all others..

Good! I am new to this forum. However, I frequently see people complaining about how AWs are bad, spoiled, etc.; about how it would be great if we'd sent all AWs to Russia and brought RWs here.  Am I the only one who thinks that such statements are horrible??? Just because someone had a bad experience with an AW should not mean that all AWs as a class are bad people.