Money changes everything

[BC]

All I can speak from is my experience.  My wife did not want to emigrate had gainful employment, was also supporting her daughter and parents, but nothing to jump up and down about.  During our dating period I played down as much as possible the financial aspects.  We stayed together at very nice hotels and I let her know that this was due to some companies I work with footing the bill.  When I proposed I told her that all I could guarantee was a house over our head (owned, and not rented or mortaged) good food on our table (she is a professional cook and here we have the best ingredients at reasonable prices) and a good atmosphere to raise kids.

'Between the lines' she had a good idea of my lifestyle, and had lived in the west for short periods so knew basically what to expect.  I believe she was pleasantly surprised with what she found when she came here, but as reported, a RW can walk into a mansion and not bat an eye. - quite ok in my book.

I have never dealt with women listed at agencies, who have never traveled to the west but can imagine that expectations under these circumstances might be higher than otherwise.

All I can say is that finding a woman that did not want to emigrate, set the stage for the relationship we have today.

[Misha]

BC, nice post. Finally, it boils down to setting lower expectations and then surpassing them when she arrives. Much better than having the woman disappointed because her expectations were not met.

[BC]

BC, nice post. Finally, it boils down to setting lower expectations and then surpassing them when she arrives. Much better than having the woman disappointed because her expectations were not met.

Of course... but I think the fact that my wife had seen a bit of western life in other countries helped a good bit.

IIRC looking outside the airplane window before landing at SVOII I saw a few very nice 'pads' down there even for western standards.  I can only imagine what can go through a RW's head landing at any major airport where the swimming pools can be seen miles away.

But yes... If you can find a way to surpass her expectations you will be miles ahead.

[Gator]

Bluebell wrote,

They will not look for less than themselves, and in better economic countries their equals are successful men.

No comment.  Just thought it deserved repeating.

[Misha]

Yes, but define success. Some women will define success in material terms, but their are other indicators of success other than salary and money in the bank.

[Gator]

BC wrote,

I can only imagine what can go through a RW's head landing at any major airport where the swimming pools can be seen miles away.

When visiting my Cossack fiancee in her city near the Urals, we drove past where she lived once.  Very large house with (she claimed) an indoor swimming pool!!!!  I could not see behind the wall surrounding the house.

Her ex-husband was very wealthy at the time.  He owned a tire factory and did not manage it well.  Lost everything in 1998 and abandoned her and their baby.  Was she seeking the same level of wealth in a Western man?  No, her central values were family values.  She was seeking a man with financial security, something her husband with all his riches did not offer.  Security and generosity (spend money on his family) were very important measures.

[Bluebell]

Yes, but define success. Some women will define success in material terms, but their are other indicators of success other than salary and money in the bank.

Staying on topic, here is a definition of success: successful man is that who earns more than his wife can spend, and successful woman is who marries such a man 

[Misha]

Staying on topic, here is a definition of success: successful man is that who earns more than his wife can spend, and successful woman is who marries such a man 

Well, then a successful man could be defined as finding a woman who insists on spending less than he earns and convincing such a wonderful woman that he should marry him even though he does not truly deserve her  Under those criteria, I would define myself as a total success. 

[Gator]

successful man is that who earns more than his wife can spend

Nice try, Bluebell.  However, using your definition there are no successful men.       I found that all women, and RW in particular, have no trouble spending all they have been given.

[BC]

Nice try, Bluebell.  However, using your definition there are no successful men.       I found that all women, and RW in particular, have no trouble spending all they have been given.

We are by no means rich, but my wife can tomorrow, if she wishes, use gold and platinum plastic to run us into financial ruin.  If she does it is a hurdle we will have to somehow overcome.

She has no limits nor do I.. we both know the 'limits' of reasonableness though and that in the end is what really counts.

Mutual trust must exist.  If it doesn't or you have to somehow worry about it you aren't truly married.

[KenC]

We are by no means rich, but my wife can tomorrow, if she wishes, use gold and platinum plastic to run us into financial ruin.  If she does it is a hurdle we will have to somehow overcome.

She has no limits nor do I.. we both know the 'limits' of reasonableness though and that in the end is what really counts.

Mutual trust must exist.  If it doesn't or you have to somehow worry about it you aren't truly married.

BC,
I agree completely with your post.

I think Senoir Gator was making a joke much like I did some many pages ago.  Most wives want just a little more than you offer them financially.  No matter how high the bar is set.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

Mutual trust must exist.  If it doesn't or you have to somehow worry about it you aren't truly married.

This is so true and so important. If you cannot trust your wife that she will spend reasonably and if your wife is always afraid that you will spend more without even talking about it before or if she is afraid that you will not give her her allowance or something like that....then you got big problems that are rooting maybe even from something else...

[Gator]

KenC,

I think Senoir Gator was making a joke much like I did some many pages ago.

Your antennae are working fine, no adjustment necessary.

Does "Senoir Gator" mean "Señor Mayor Gator"?

[KenC]

KenC,

Your antennae are working fine, no adjustment necessary.

Does "Senoir Gator" mean "Señor Mayor Gator"?

It really does work either way now, dosesn't it Phil? 
KenC

[Daveman]

Well, I really have nothing of value to add at this point but want to say that this is one of the best threads I've ever seen here.  Lots of interesting points and food for thought.  I would vote that this thread be pinned or made into a part of the "info" area. Too much good stuff to allow it to fade into oblivion.

Dave

[Admin]

Well, I really have nothing of value to add at this point but want to say that this is one of the best threads I've ever seen here.  Lots of interesting points and food for thought.  I would vote that this thread be pinned or made into a part of the "info" area. Too much good stuff to allow it to fade into oblivion.

Dave

I agree. When the topic runs its course, we will clean up a few of the extraneous posts, and then put it into the "Best of RWD" class over in the RWDpedia.

- Dan

[KenC]

I agree. When the topic runs its course, we will clean up a few of the extraneous posts, and then put it into the "Best of RWD" class over in the RWDpedia.

- Dan

Put a fork in it now, it is done.
KenC

[AnastassiaAsh]

I am really glad that other women who are in the US participated in this discussion. 
                                               
                                           

[t_g_k]

So it appears there has existed an opinion outside ex-soviet area that the Former Soviet Union countries education surpasses that of the West? Maybe the FSU expatriotes contributed to spreading the idea....
This is not an idle question to me. I am a representaive of the FSU educational system. It would be more than interesting to me to know more about what people in the world think of this aspect of our life...
t_g_k

[Rubicon]

Most of the top ranked Universities in the world are in the west.  There are a lot of very highly ranked Universities in the USA.  So unfortunately I would not agree with you.  I think the top ranked FSU University comes in somewhere around number 200.  In the west we hear that students and/or their parents routinely bribe teachers in order to get better grades.  We also hear that FSU students do not prepare as well as western or asian students.

[Misha]

So it appears there has existed an opinion outside ex-soviet area that the Former Soviet Union countries education surpasses that of the West?

According to OECD Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), Russia is ranked 43rd and is below average in all the categories tested: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf Most of the other republics of the FSU rank even worse. The exceptions are the Baltic states (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) that gets very good results, comparable to their European neighbors 

[acctBill]

So it appears there has existed an opinion outside ex-soviet area that the Former Soviet Union countries education surpasses that of the West? Maybe the FSU expatriotes contributed to spreading the idea....
This is not an idle question to me. I am a representaive of the FSU educational system. It would be more than interesting to me to know more about what people in the world think of this aspect of our life...
t_g_k

t_g_k I really must disagree.  My wife went to university in Moscow and London and said the London university was far better, that was quite awhile ago.  I've had inlaws and family friends who have come to the UK to do a graduate degree after doing their undergraduate degree in Moscow, most have said that the UK university was better. 

[Anotherkiwi]

I can't comment about universities, but I did have second-hand experience of high school on my first trip to Russia.  The lady I visited had a 16 year old daughter who showed me her course timetable for an average week (5 1/2 days).  In those 40 or so hours she had lessons in 22 different subjects!

Although she was an intelligent girl (and a very talented artist from some of the work I saw in their flat), I really couldn't fathom how she could get a good grounding in any of the subjects which rated only an hour or two a week.  And with so many subjects it must have been very hard to remember what was taught in each class.  In contrast, I was learning only six academic subjects (plus time for sport and physical education classes) at that age.

Perhaps some of the RW could enlighten us with their own experiences.

[molly35ru]

Well, my 16 y.o daughter goes to school 6 days a week and has about 15 subjects including physical education and handycraft classes.
She has  from 5 to 6 lessons a day: Algebra (3 hrs), Geometry (2 hrs), Russian (3 hrs), Literature (2 hrs), English (2 hrs), Physics (3 hrs), chemistry (3 hrs), Biology (2 hrs) History (3 hrs), Drawing (1 hrs), Geography (2 hrs), social studies, basic life safety...about 30 hrs a week in total. She also took 4 hrs dance classes every day.
Perhaps the girl you are talking about takes some additional classes but that's an average timetable for this age and believe me if they do their homework they remember everything . They will have less subject but more hours for each of them during the last 2 years at school. Our school time table was almost the same and I was doing good as i remember..lol
Hope my reply made something clear

[Patagonie]

It has been i long time that i wanted to put this letter in the forum. I think it's time now.
This letter has been sent to my previous GF after the end of relation.


There is something else i want to explain X. It's about the big difference between east en west. It changes a lot of things and behavior.
Money / greedy is always a difficult topic for a western men. I want to explain you exactly how we see the things.

First we leave in a very different society. Before the fall of the curtain iron you lived in a difficult system with a dangerous political police and people divided between two : party people and others. For political reasons you can each minute lost all what you have (go to jail for bad words against party, to be moved for the same reason).
    After 1990 everybody must find money, have a business or find a job. People don't trust system, when you see grivna divided by two in one year it means you lost half of what you had. With heavy inflation rate if you keep money you lost it quicly. On an other side the borrow rate are very high too so for many people it's not possible to buy a flat. In fact in eastern society it's very difficult to build the future, you live in the present, the govnerment offers you no guaranties, minimal help, and minimal, very minimal income for you retirement. Banks are not sure and a large part of the economy is "black". Ok, do you agree ?
    In western economies, after second war, and in particular since euro (2000) we lives in a very secure system with interest rate less than 4% (rental only, around 5-6% for car and between 3 till 18% for personnal) and inflation rate of 2%-3% in average. It's easy to borrow money and i must say that european people are more prudential with a saving rate higher than a lot of others countries. So we can say that people can build a life and even if they are modest (a lot of my family had been farmers or school teachers) they can let to their childs a house or some asset. From an old time modest people try to have a better life and work to enhance what they had. And they trust in it because decade after decade they can see their asset increase.
    In their behavior this people know they can use to in the future and nothing will decrease the value of their asset.
    They trust in the future. They know that if they are ill govnerment will help them. The know if they lost their job govnerment will help them (partially and for two years only). They know that they will get some minimal money from governement's help if they meet a very difficult situation. When they will retire they will have income too. So when you know this you can borrow for 25 years and your life will be better buying a house or a flat. Today people who borrow for credit consumption pay a high price +15% and more. Only poor people goes in this way. Others are reluctants, why pay something 18% more ?  this is business, "offer your dream now", it will cost you 18% more by borrowing the money. (banks are happy and try to encourage people to live in this matter).
  
    So if i summarize, roughly, in east you have a better life by spending now  and in west you had a better life by saving and apply a delayed strategy.

        Now about what i feel with eastern women (and is spent more than  200 hours in a forum about this topic). A lot of eastern women imagine how they could be rich with the same amount (like the guy earns) in their country. So instantly they become very rich when they imagine tehmselves arranged with such income . And they don't understant why the guy argue for a 100 $ restaurant bill for exemple. So her conclusion, roughly, is the guy is greedy (and when an eastern gal begins to think a man is greedy it's not good for the future of the relation). In fact if you read dictionnary greedy is not the good word, but stay with the eastern common sense of "greedy".

    When girls go to west they begins to understand that life is expansive (rental, oil, food, restaurant). But on an other side clothes, shoes, are the same price and often less expansive. Computers are almost the same price (i imagine like tv, hi fi...). So when they return at home as they are not stupids they know life is expansive but incomes are high too.
There is something they will never see : the hidden part of money wich disappears and she will never knows, only when she will get married, 2 or 3 years after if she get a good job. The name of this is TAX. How do you believe that all this government's helps are paid ? By god ? No by tax.
    Take a real exemple : mine (i attach to my email the scheduled expenses/income 2010 for a couple, as i'm really serious in my marriage project i do such spreadsheet explaining all, i give you one copy). I pay almost 700 euros per month of tax. Add all you will see it rest 1200-1500 euros per month if i'm single,  for travel, clothes, hang up, restaurants, computer, movies, gym lessons, ski... And i'm lucky, 4200 worth for a single means to be on the top of the french middle class, or just above, in the 10% of the singles in France.
    So what it allows me : each three months make a trip abroad in east for 12 days (and i have enough vacation to do such a thing !) to visit my girl. You can say to me if i do such a thing i will save some money too. Not really,  i need to have a life too so i need to spend  few hundreds euros per month to buy clothes, restaurants, hang up and others little expenses. I cannot spend three months lock up in my flat.
    In one year i spend almost 11000 euros for searching a mate. Do you think really i can save a lot of money ? No.

        In general girls imagine that people have a lot of money saved (they hope to) and on other side they expect that boys will not be greedy and will not think about what they do with money. HOW is it possible to have BOTH behaviors ?
    Olga looks yours friends W and K, she's a little disappointed that her husband don't have asset. But how it could be possible ? Life in Paris is one of the most expansive in France. I imagine all of his asset disappears during courtship and marriage.

    I want to show you all the traps of such false hope (mens have unlimited amount of money and it doesn't matter to spend all bucks)  

    First very few men have a high amount of money, a lot of this men are already booked by local women because before 35 y old, at least half of western women focus hardly to hit white collar, engineer, doctors, high managers and so, those man are highly wanted. My best friend married with the russian girl is on the top 1% and earn something like 8000 euros per month. But they haven't a luxuous life, just a normal one. For his pleasure he has some expansives watches, a Golf VR6 wich they almost never use. He bought a flat in russia for his wife but you need to know they  have a special prenup  agreement for the marriage (separated assets) and he never make weddings. So you understand more why he does this.
    So very few men can avoid to count, and this type of men can easily change of women, Does the women will feel secure ? in a materialistic way probably, for her couple not sure. So statiscally such things can happen (a very rich guy) but how many time are you ready to wait ? And i can say real and serious men, will try to not show you if they are very rich, so, and as they are a lot of scammer, gold diggers and old hookers in the race, they will walk away early if they realize the girl live in a fantasy.

    Second trap. When a girl begins to show that count money is irrelevant. there are few issues.
    * The guy dumps the girl.because he is not foolish and don't want to make debt.
    * He is in vacation and he really want to keep the girl (generally we expense more in vacation wich is true) so he tries to hold the score in a positive manner. After he needs, depending on how he earns to wait X months to make money for the second trip. Or and he spend a part of his asset. After many trips, in the best case, if he don't open his chute (and because he will be afraid to lost the girl, and because of proud, he will never explains exactly what his economic reality is) they go further and will open a K1 (worst, a marriage course) and they will be very disappointed both, few days or few weeks after. But in fact a lot of man will stop because they financially cannot continue the courtship and or they will realize they don't have funds for the marriage. So they will disappear.

    Third trap
    * A lot of men, because they don't have self confidence are confused about love and be generous. They brag themselves. They think they will counterbalance their lacks by offering money. And again both, girls and man will enter in the same bad race as i described above.
  
    Fourth trap  
    * When a girl not exactly shows that count money is irrelevant, BUT shows that she apparently don't need to count because apparently she is well off, a lot of boys will think, ok she is not in my league, so walk away, because i don't want to crash financially, or she will probably  dump me after few years for a more rich guy. A serious guy will think in this manner. And if he is not foolish he will dump her.

    The proud you have eastern girls to show your best life in fact works against you.
   A successful life is a true one, anchored in reality. And the worst side of those international relations is the unhealthy side around money. In his courtship the guy mustn't count money, but he must have to do before, and  must remember to count when weddings are ended. Crazy, totally crazy.

    Girls are not foolish. They have some tools to assess the guy. But in fact not so much. And behavior of the man can lie a lot. Look at me with my armani or paul smith jacket. Does i have the armani gold life ? with porsche, big house with own swimming pool, skiing vacations in Courchevel and in rental vacation house at St Tropez. No, absolutely no. I'm enough well off to buy sometimes brand clothes and i always buy it in discount price because i really like wear fashion clothes. But i must say that now i'm asking some questions about myself about how i dress  because perhaps it push some girls to have a false sense of my real league.
    So girls try to assess  their futur husband and it's absolutely normal. They need to know, for documents, if the guy is always married or really single, to know if he can support her and the future family. The problems is the worth of the word "support". For exemple i avoid each women profile who say "generous". I found it stupid, irrelevant. If a girl doesn't understand the price of a marriage (and more of a divorce) for a western man and didn't guess the total price this guy will pay (total price = time, tiredness, money and that probably no more than 1% of the men (who travelled) succeed) that shows she is stupid or put money as her first goal (and so the risk to meet a gold digger, a scammer, an old hooker raises instantly, again).
    For her there are many traps :
    * the guy can really lie
    * the guy forgets to say he needs to pay an alimony for the next 10 years
    * He earns a lot but he will be burn in few years because he will be 50 and a lot of firms try to cut big salary
    * He says to you that he will be retire in 10 years and share a lot of time with you, but he forgets to say that his income will decrease of 45 % instantly.
    * He seems to be very generous but in fact he is burning is whole year budget vacation. Wait one year to see him again.
    * He has no medical insurance (in usa), so if he has a big problem it can be a direct crash. Poker situation.
    * He forgets to say that his soon, 20 y old, will enter next year to a private graduate school in Paris, London, Berlin... total cost for three years : between 70 000 euros and 100 000 euros.
    * The guy may show you beautiful photos of his car (a brand one), his house. Yes he is the owner, his name is on the documents, but sometimes or often the bank is the owner in fact. (this doesn't appear in general in east, when a guy got a house, he is the owner, no debt).

    I just want to show that important criteria : "a man who is not greedy, otherwise i walk away" is totally stupid as tool to validate the capacity of a man to support her (really) in the future. Yes some men, by human nature, are really greedy, despite wich money he has, and it's not funny to live with such type of personn.
    The courtship is normally simple in east. Men pay for all, it's the basic rule. But in fact as soon as the couple enter in intimacy area, things begin to be shared or halved, it depends of what earns the girl.
    And what the girl didn't realize (it's the foolish part of this courtship) if she pushs the guys too high in expenses in fact she is destroying the future of her relation. Yes the guy can (and must) have some asset but when this limited amount is burnt in the courtship, how they pay the process of marriage and relocation ? By borrowing money ? Yes but it will be less money next years for the couple, ah ah ah !
    And now imagine the guy (normally people don't sucess at first attempt) who throw the money by the window to seem not greedy. After five travels (and burn 40000 $ in big bills, expansives gifts... ) he meets her beloved, the ONE. And for her he is the ONE. Wonderful. She expects that he will be not greedy, yes but with wich money now all his saved money has been burn ? ah, ah ah ! Oh she's a little disappointed : why have you spend all this money with this stupids girls ? To not seem greedy, it's the rule of your courtship ! Spend or burnt what is needed even if you don't have. Ah ah ah !
    When guys (not the foolishs one) meet the zero dollar they go out of international dating. So they need asset to : a/ courtship during travels. b/ Asset for the one of the one --> marriage situation, documents, weddings and all expenses for relocation. c/ asset or have enough monthly income for, at least the first year of marriage life because the first month are very expensive and anyways, even if she would work she could'nt in the beginning..
      Here again a real guy must make a strategy and controls what he does with what he has. His goal is to get married, and he will have more chance if he is reasonnable with money. Girls on the beginning imagine money is not her problem but in fact it will be, later or sooner perhaps but mandatory ah ah ah ah !


    I can write three simples rules about all i said :
Each time a girl try to impress a guy she is making the guy dumping her.
    Each time a guy try to impress a gal they will crash
    Each time a girl considers the printed amount of money a guy earns  she make herself false expectations and push the relation to crash. She must divide by 4 to have an idea of what type of life she can expect basis on her country life.
  
    Olga i want to say that simply :
    Each time a girl try to impress a guy she is making the guy dumping her.
    Each time a guy try to impress a gal they will crash
    Each time a girl considers the printed amount of money a guy earns  she make herself false expectations and push the relation to crash. She must divide by 4 to have an idea of what type of life she can expect basis on her country life.
   
    X i want to say that simply :
   you have exactly the same life as i have in your city, ski, clothes, gym, restaurant, hang up, brand car (and mine is less expensive).
    I begin to think : this will be a problem, the only reason for wich she would relocate is love. But can i offer a better life ? Not really. Oh she risked to be disappointed, not good.
    So X in fact you borrow a lot of money (thing i can understand for your car because it's a big amount), so you live above your incomes ? What the interest to live above ? You make good money normally because you have a top job ? So with good money you can be happy with what you have.
    So for Egypt why not said me : oh Alexis my budget will be around 500 $ because i'm a little short with my car. What can we do now ? Yes perhaps we would't have been to Egypt but to Poland and i would help you to protect you financially. I already explain to you :  money, brand, Ferrari, six stars, Bettencourt absolutely don't impress me. The best memory had been to be with you for this so special day on the boat and walking around the island.
  
    you need to know for a western men vacation with the girl is not the good way to start a serious relation :
    He knows nothing about her life
    He cannot validate the relation, he don't meet family, friends
    she can be interested only in travel (gold digger attitude)
    It costs him nearly twice the price of a travel in east.
    She can have a local boyfriend and play multiples games (yes it's not a fantasy, or she can be a hooker).