Diplomacy

[BillyB]

But I would say that it is still pretty hard to find a truly honest Russian Woman.

Anastasia, I think we can say this with most women and men no matter where they're from. I believe if we take the average American woman and put her in the FSU system, she will be like the average FSU woman. Because Americans have more money and possessions than the average FSU citizen, we are happy and more satisfied with what we have. We do not need to steal or lie as much for personal gain. I don't know if this is scientific fact but I suspect our economic advantage have allowed us the luxury to act more honest in life. I have a Ukrainian man and woman who works in my company and they are my two must trusted employees.

Americans may act differently under poor conditions. Who knows until that happens? I believe we have a system in place that does allow us to put in more honest leaders to our citizens benefit compared to most nations, and leaders are what set the tone of a nation.

One of the strengths of my fiancee I love so much is that she will not bend or alter her morals while living under poor conditions.

[KenC]

Anastasia, I think we can say this with most women and men no matter where they're from. I believe if we take the average American woman and put her in the FSU system, she will be like the average FSU woman. Because Americans have more money and possessions than the average FSU citizen, we are happy and more satisfied with what we have. We do not need to steal or lie as much for personal gain. I don't know if this is scientific fact but I suspect our economic advantage have allowed us the luxury to act more honest in life. I have a Ukrainian man and woman who works in my company and they are my two must trusted employees.

Americans may act differently under poor conditions. Who knows until that happens? I believe we have a system in place that does allow us to put in more honest leaders to our citizens benefit compared to most nations, and leaders are what set the tone of a nation.

One of the strengths of my fiancee I love so much is that she will not bend or alter her morals while living under poor conditions.

Just to be clear.  So you think that people from less advantaged countries are less honest than those from financially strong countries?
KenC

[BillyB]

Just to be clear.  So you think that people from less advantaged countries are less honest than those from financially strong countries?
KenC

Yes, from the goverment, the police, all the way down to the guy who has to scrap/steal to eat is lying and stealing more for personal gain. But on a level playing field of government, social and economical conditions, I would say every nation would have equally the same honest and dishonest people percentage wise.

My cousin who is a fan of the rich and famous singer Garth Brooks told me he's such a nice man and he gives to charity. I told her he can afford it and I appreciate and admire his efforts to help others but I asked her if she knew that when times were tough on him, he did rob stores at gunpoint for financial gain. Who is the real Garth Brooks? He's two very different people under two very different financial conditions.

[jb]

I asked her if she knew that when times were tough on him, he did rob stores at gunpoint for financial gain.

Garth Brooks is a convicted armed robber?  That's the first I've heard that.

BillyB,  I love the way you start rumor and innuendo stating it as if it were a fact you knew.. 

[AnastassiaAsh]

I don't know if this is scientific fact but I suspect our economic advantage have allowed us the luxury to act more honest in life.

I agree, there is truth to that. Here people donate old clothes and tithe and think they are heroes. While in reality they are getting rid of bad stuff that takes room in their garage and have lots of business ties with church members...What would they do in Russia? That's a practical, true and harsh 'latmus test'.

I caught myself not once too thinking - I forgot to pay for this package of bottled water because it was at the bottom of the cart, and i paid for it next time I shopped again. They were so glad and said Thank you for being honest...Would I do the same in Russia? That country 'robbed' my grandparents and parents BIG TIME! They owe them and me for the rest of my life!"...It is pretty easy to get on this kind of hook of thinking...

[KenC]

Yes, from the goverment, the police, all the way down to the guy who has to scrap/steal to eat is lying and stealing more for personal gain. But on a level playing field of government, social and economical conditions, I would say every nation would have equally the same honest and dishonest people percentage wise.

My cousin who is a fan of the rich and famous singer Garth Brooks told me he's such a nice man and he gives to charity. I told her he can afford it and I appreciate and admire his efforts to help others but I asked her if she knew that when times were tough on him, he did rob stores at gunpoint for financial gain. Who is the real Garth Brooks? He's two very different people under two very different financial conditions.

I don't know about all that Garth Brooks stuff.  It seems as though your are wrapping honesty and niceness in the same blanket again to me and I do not see them tied together.  One (niceness) has to do with personality and the other (honesty) has to do with character.

I will say, as I always have, desperate people do desperate things and I am sure that if you look at the bottom of the economic barrel in any country, the crime rate is higher than the more economically stable areas.  And it would be logical to think that there would be more crime in the countries of the fsu that are poor than the ones that are stronger economically.  But once you get past that desperate lower layer and move up the economic ladder to the people who have jobs and can support themselves (no matter how humble) I don't think economics has much to do with honesty or niceness for that matter.

My in laws are in Russia's very small middle class and I have never met a more honest or principaled bunch of people in my life.  But at the same time, they are direct and blunt in their personalities.  Much the same as Lena (go figure  ).  Some of the nicest people I have met in my life were poor too.

As this post and conversation is really  maybe you should start a new thread?
KenC

[Photo Guy]

Anastassia wrote:
I agree, there is truth to that. Here people donate old clothes and tithe and think they are heroes. While in reality they are getting rid of bad stuff that takes room in their garage and have lots of business ties with church members...What would they do in Russia? That's a practical, true and harsh 'latmus test'.

I had to laugh. Right on target. True. When a rich person is charitable, it doesn't cost them very much, although charity should always be applauded. My problem with life here in my USA, is the gluttony, on many levels. As a learning experience our children should be required to spend a summer in an environment of poverty, maybe a third world country.
I'm sorry...I've gone off topic.  Don't read this post.

[jb]

http://www.allgarth.com/biography.html

As near as I can tell, Grath Brooks has never spent a day in jail, either for armed robbery or anything else.  I can't imagine why BillyB would slander the man's good name in this way.

[viking]

This thread is about diplomacy and although some have gone off-thread, may I please bring to everyones attention, that WE HAVE PRACTICED DIPLOMACY in this thread. 

[BillyB]

Keep searching jb. A pro Garth Brooks website isn't going to say he did any wrong and one can assume after reading that info that he's an angel. The article forgot to mention that he worked at a bar in his younger days.

I don't slander Garth, I repeat what I heard/read on the news. Blame them.

[catzenmouse]

FWIW,

 Seems to me that most often around here if someone makes a claim they are asked to back it up (see the questions being directed at Eduard's figures in another thread) so I don't see anything wrong with asking for some evidence here.

 

I repeat what I heard/read on the news. Blame them.

 C'mon now, that's a real cop out. Heck, I can find anything I want about anybody and say that.

[BillyB]

Catz, when jb shows evidence on his "claim" I'm the chief mud slinger around here from all the years I participated and thousands of posts of mine, I might give him what he wants. Thanks for calling him out on that one.

Garth Brooks heyday and claim to fame was before the internet took off. You will be hard pressed to find any articles on the internet about Garth dated in the early 90's. Go buy an unauthorized biography.

[KenC]

Catz, when jb shows evidence on his "claim" I'm the chief mud slinger around here from all the years I participated and thousands of posts of mine, I might give him what he wants. Thanks for calling him out on that one.

Garth Brooks heyday and claim to fame was before the internet took off. You will be hard pressed to find any articles on the internet about Garth dated in the early 90's. Go buy an unauthorized biography.

Do you really want to go down that road in a thread titled Diplomacy?
KenC

[BillyB]

Do you really want to go down that road in a thread titled Diplomacy?
KenC

Ken, If I REALLY wanted to go down that road, I would have challenged jb's statement then. Most people know I don't make a habit of throwing mud so no big deal to me and to help keep things quiet at the forum, I did not challenge jb's statement.

Most people UNDERSTAND my comment to Catz and it was to imply "Why should I give proof of a claim to a person who does not extent me the same courtesy?"

[KenC]

Ken, If I REALLY wanted to go down that road, I would have challenged jb's statement then. Most people know I don't make a habit of throwing mud so no big deal to me and to help keep things quiet at the forum, I did not challenge jb's statement.

Most people UNDERSTAND my comment to Catz and it was to imply "Why should I give proof of a claim to a person who does not extent me the same courtesy?"

There are opinions, which everyone is entitled to their own and may or may not coincide with yours.  Like jb's claim regarding your mud slinging.  They cannot be proven one way or another.  And then there are things represented as "facts."  Such as your representation that Garth was a robber.  If these types of representations cannot be substantiated by the person offering them as "facts" then it is only an unsubstantiated rumor.

BTW, you may think that the highlighted statement is a fact, but in reality it is only YOUR opinion
KenC

[BillyB]

I'm done with this thread.

[catzenmouse]

Basic points to consider:

1) We're just coming out of a pretty ugly couple of weeks.

2) We're making great strides towards a less hostile environment

3) Things that we have always put as being a priority like integrity, honesty, and open communication are not things to be cast aside if they are inconvenient.

4) It is way past time to be done with the elementary school attitudes

5) When one side of a dispute puts down their gloves the proper thing to do is to lower yours as well.

6) No one is asking for or expecting "forgive and forget" but simply adult behavior going forward.

...sorry, that's as high as I can count so I'll just leave it there and be done.

Ken

[I/O]

Billy: It is natural justice in most developed countries that a person is innocent until proven guilty. When one makes an allegation they must provide an evidential base or the allegation is summarily dismissed as nonsense. The onus is on the plaintiff to substantiate the allegation, NOT on the defendant. On this one, as it was you who made the allegation, which BTW, it seems to me, nobody is disputing in and of itself, therefore it is up to you to substantiate it. Please do, at least for your own integrity sakes.

Financial status and personal attributes such as morality, honesty and integrity are very often, if not most often unrelated. Some would argue the "Top end" has more liars and crooks than the "bottom end". Others would argue there is more scum, thieves and crooks at the "bottom end" because of desperation. Frankly, I've noticed a pretty even spread at both ends of the spectrum over the years in a broad array of situations/countries.

I/O

[catzenmouse]

Financial status and personal attributes such as morality, honesty and integrity are very often, if not most often unrelated. Some would argue the "Top end" has more liars and crooks than the "bottom end". Others would argue there is more scum, thieves and crooks at the "bottom end" because of desperation. Frankly, I've noticed a pretty even spread at both ends of the spectrum over the years in a broad array of situations/countries.

I'd rather trust someone who told me there were a liar and a thief more than someone who says "elect me".

[viking]

Billy

I did find some evidence that Garth did work as a bouncer in a bar way back when, and that is when and how he met his first wife. But by the early 1990's he had over 70 hit singles and had sold over 100 million albums, so I doubt he was hurting for money.

Garth Brooks also won many awards. His first Grammy was awarded to him in 1992 for Best Male Country Vocal performance. He also won the Academy of Country Music Award (ACM) for Entertainer of the Year for the years of 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, and 1998. He won the ACM’s Top Male Vocalist Award in 1990 and 1991.

The way I look at it is:

Born in 1962. Since I doubt anyone would rob a bank under 15 years of age, we are now up to 1977. His first album came out in 1989. So we have 12 years between 77 and 89 for him to get into trouble. Subtract maybe another 2 years trying to get the album produced leaves us about 10 years, say between 77 and 87.

So...if he did do anything nasty, it would be in the late 70's or 1980's. The internet was around in the 1980's but not the way we know it today. Just what I was able to dig up in a limited amount of time.

I am not saying you are right or wrong. Just trying to be hmmmm..diplomatic.

[Turboguy]

I don't know a thing about Garth Brooks past and have no idea if he did or did not rob places at gunpoint.  Billy was trying to illustrate a point and I think the point he was trying to make was valid.   That people can change their lives and go from someone who does bad things to someone who does good things.  Often I think there is a desire to overcompensate.   

As far as which end of the specrum has the most honest people looking at our politicians I can't think it is that end.  I used to have a friend who said when he was undecided which candidate to vote for he would vote for the richest since he felt there was less need to be dishonest.   Personally I have lost my faith in any of them being honest.   Going on the other end I have heard it said that desperate people do desperate things so I don't think that is the most honest segment either.    I think I will cast my vote for the ones in the middle. 

[acrzybear]

The article forgot to mention that he worked at a bar in his younger days.

I'm still trying to figure out how Garth Brooks working in a bar has anything to do with him allegedly commiting robbery

[KenC]

My first thought (honstly) about how "nice" Garth is now, was to wonder how charitable he would be without the tax benefits? :noidea:
KenC

[Shadow]

If Garth Brooks had a shady past I suspect it would be able to find the source. I have done some searching and came up with nothing that remotely hints at a crime. And the excuse that 'he was before internet' does not go, you can dig up dirt on celebrities that never knew what a computer was.
So where I see it there is no source for the rumour. 

[KenC]

At what cost do we continue to be diplomatic?  

Turbo (the most diplomatic and nicest guy here) got me thinking.

Do we avoid any potential confrontation for the sake of diplomacy?  Do we ignore faulty logic and bad information just because pointing it out may cause a conflict?  If there is a history of "bad blood", does that give license to another to say as he wants no matter how much you disagree?  How long do you continue to be diplomatic when the otherside is not?  If your diplomatic efforts continue to be ignored, at what point does a sense of fairness warrent a retaliation?  (And please do not say "never" because we all have our breaking point, especially when it is your wife and marriage that is being attacked)
KenC