I'm still not convinced! The official stats just don't make sense!

[wxman]

I don't think all those FSU women are wrong when they say there are not enough men to go around.

Of course if you ask AW, they would say the same thing that there are not enough good AM to go around. It's not just a FSUW issue, but something that is stated by women in every country. In the end, the men strut their feathers, but it's the women who decide if you meet their criteria and are worth a second look. 

[KenC]

I don't get this debate at all.  Dan has sighted facts and statistics from the most reliable sources available that support that there is a 1:1 ratio of men to women.  No amount of supposition, guessing or perceptions can change the facts of the matter.  It seems to me that Eduard and his good friend Simoni are desperately trying to support a mistaken position that there are many more women than men with smoke and mirrors without a shred of factual evidence.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Eduard's original stance that there are significantly more women than men?  And now he and Simoni are trying to qualify what type of men can or cannot be counted?  How about some factual support of your position guys?  Have none?  Then your claim just may fall into the myth category.  No matter how well it factors into your marketing plan, without factual evidence to support it and overwhelming factual evidence to the contrary, you are incorrect in your assumptions.
KenC

[Simoni]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't it Eduard's original stance that there are significantly more women than men?  And now he and Simoni are trying to qualify what type of men can or cannot be counted?  How about some factual support of your position guys?  Have none?  Then your claim just may fall into the myth category.  No matter how well it factors into your marketing plan, without factual evidence to support it and overwhelming factual evidence to the contrary, you are incorrect in your assumptions.
KenC

I will correct the statement "there are significantly more women that men."  I never said that in that context.  What I have been saying is that there are more serious girls in the dating range than men.  I am saying that in the range of 21-35 year olds, the ratio is not 1-to-1.

Thus Ken, I don't think I am incorrect in my assumptions that there are more women than men in the FSU in the dating/marrying range of 21-35; that is, women who are serious in marriage. 

Since we have the danger of talking apples to oranges here, I think we need to carefully define terms.

I am not agreeing with either Dan nor Eduard about specific numbers.

But I do disagree with Dan chastising people who disagree with his 1-to-1 ratio.  I will disagree with that ratio because I think it is clearly wrong.

Now, as I have stated here earlier, I am saying that there are more fsu women seeking men for marriages and families than there are fsu men seeking women for marriage and families. I don't care what the population ratio is because that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the ratio of girls seeking marriage as compared to guys seeking marriage.

Myth you say? Yes, that does play into this uneven ratio. Ask FSU women.  Many will tell you that there are not enough good men to go around.  That creates in them an urgency to find their man.  This urgency makes them more serious, and most AM going to the FSU are serious. Thus, the pool for them is larger than 1-to-1.

Marketing plan? What? I don't have a "marketing plan," Ken.  I'm just disagreeing with the 1-to-1 ratio.  It just does not make sense if you look at it from a qualitative statistical perspective.   Just looking at population numbers can be misleading; hence, I have provided this analysis.

What is it like on the ground over there?  Are you guys seeing a 1-to-1 ratio?  It's been a couple of years, but I sure as heck saw a very lopsided ratio when I was dating.   I had my pick of many girls.    In more recent times (7 months ago) countless fsu girls told me the same story-- not enough men to go around and didn't I have a friend?

Do you really believe that if the ratio is 1-to-1 that so many guys here would be writing fsu girls and planning trips?  The very existence of this site says otherwise.

[Misha]

You should, you wrote it! 

Well, it goes to show that I am consistent in my ideas LOL 

[KenC]

I will correct the statement "there are significantly more women that men."  I never said that in that context.  What I have been saying is that there are more serious girls in the dating range than men.  I am saying that in the range of 21-35 year olds, the ratio is not 1-to-1.

Thus Ken, I don't think I am incorrect in my assumptions that there are more women than men in the FSU in the dating/marrying range of 21-35; that is, women who are serious in marriage. 

Since we have the danger of talking apples to oranges here, I think we need to carefully define terms.

I am not agreeing with either Dan nor Eduard about specific numbers.

But I do disagree with Dan chastising people who disagree with his 1-to-1 ratio.  I will disagree with that ratio because I think it is clearly wrong.

Now, as I have stated here earlier, I am saying that there are more fsu women seeking men for marriages and families than there are fsu men seeking women for marriage and families. I don't care what the population ratio is because that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the ratio of girls seeking marriage as compared to guys seeking marriage.

Myth you say? Yes, that does play into this uneven ratio. Ask FSU women.  Many will tell you that there are not enough good men to go around.  That creates in them an urgency to find their man.  This urgency makes them more serious, and most AM going to the FSU are serious. Thus, the pool for them is larger than 1-to-1.

Marketing plan? What? I don't have a "marketing plan," Ken.  I'm just disagreeing with the 1-to-1 ratio.  It just does not make sense if you look at it from a qualitative statistical perspective.   Just looking at population numbers can be misleading; hence, I have provided this analysis.

What is it like on the ground over there?  Are you guys seeing a 1-to-1 ratio?  It's been a couple of years, but I sure as heck saw a very lopsided ratio when I was dating.   I had my pick of many girls.    In more recent times (7 months ago) countless fsu girls told me the same story-- not enough men to go around and didn't I have a friend?

Do you really believe that if the ratio is 1-to-1 that so many guys here would be writing fsu girls and planning trips?  The very existence of this site says otherwise.

OK Simoni,
With all that being said, the facts still indicate that there is about um, 1 male to um, 1 female.
Got it!
KenC

[Jet]

Do you really believe that if the ratio is 1-to-1 that so many guys here would be writing fsu girls and planning trips?  The very existence of this site says otherwise.

Like it or not, this *is* an apples/oranges discussion. The ratio here in the US is also about 1-1 which means there should be plenty of AW without having to cast a wider net. There ARE plenty of women stateside, but they are NOT what many of us are looking for in a life partner, so we don't include them as viable candidates. Russia may very well have the opposite situation where the available marriage minded men are not seen by the women as viable candidates. That doesn't mean that the women here, or the men there don't exist, it just means they are not what we (or the Russian women) are looking for.

The very existence of this site is to help people find what they are looking for. To give them a "third option" instead of staying single, or settling for what's available locally.

I think what has Dan worked up is that when Eduard posts something like "there are 8 marriage minded women for every man" it sounds very much like an assertion of fact. If it were worded to convey opinion "there seems to be a lot more marriage minded women than men" we all could have saved ourselves many pages of argument. Assertions of fact generally require some reputable source to back them up, especially when such assertion is controversial. Dan has provided his.

[Simoni]

I think what has Dan worked up is that when Eduard posts something like "there are 8 marriage minded women for every man" it sounds very much like an assertion of fact. If it were worded to convey opinion "there seems to be a lot more marriage minded women than men" we all could have saved ourselves many pages of argument. Assertions of fact generally require some reputable source to back them up, especially when such assertion is controversial. Dan has provided his.

Maybe so.  I was not part of that, and I would disagree with an 8 to 1 ratio, just as I would disagree with a 1-to-1 ratio (of the population segment ages 21-35 of serous fsu girls seeking marriage).

If Dan is arguing that the male female population in the FSU is 1-to-1, I have no problem with that.  If he is arguing that American men have only a 1-to-1 ratio when they go to the fsu and meet fsu girls seeking marriage, I disagree with him.

[Misha]

Well, there is also a 1 to 1 ratio of men to women in the United States. So why do so many men go to the FSU to look for wives? If the only driving force was availability then they should be content to marry any woman who is available. To repeat the obvious: if Russian women were willing to marry any man, the whole MOB business would disappear tomorrow. Women complain that there are no good eligible men available because they do not like the options that are available to them. The men who are the ones that women want are fewer in number than the women who want them. Having dated in Russia and in Canada, I can attest to the fact that it is MUCH, MUCH easier to find women in Russia who want to date you, than it is in Canada. Call it my opinion if you will, but that was my personal experience.

[Simoni]

I can attest to the fact that it is MUCH, MUCH easier to find women in Russia who want to date you, than it is in Canada. Call it my opinion if you will, but that was my personal experience.

My experience, too. 

And direct experience is much more informative than out of context statistics...

[KenC]

My experience, too. 

And direct experience is much more informative than out of context statistics...

Simoni,
That makes no sense at all.  Your personal experience is more imformative than statistics compiled by the CIA?  Huh?  Come on, step back and look at the lack of logic you are using here.
KenC

[Misha]

Ah yes, the CIA experts in dating. Again, numbers don't tell you if these are people you want to date. If I had wanted a very overweight single-mother, I could have dated a new woman every day in Canada, maybe even two. The problem is that I did not want to date the women that were in greatest supply. The "objective" numbers don't match up with the "subjective" factors. What Russia offered was a large number of women that I wanted to date, women that wanted to date me.

[Simoni]

Simoni,
That makes no sense at all.  Your personal experience is more imformative than statistics compiled by the CIA?  Huh?  Come on, step back and look at the lack of logic you are using here.
KenC

Of course it makes sense.  Think of your personal experience.  Stats say it can't be so. Foreign marriage.  Age gap. But it worked for you.  

I think you are looking at the entire population with your CIA line.  We are talking about a population segement of the whole, and that is a key factor.

Do you agree with the CIA stat that you had only 1-to-1 opportunity only when you went to Tver?

As for me, I found the ratio to be much greater than 1-to-1, both in Russia and Ukraine.

It seems rather silly to keep quoting the 1-to-1 ratio.  We both know that the reality is that there are many choices of women for Americans going there.  It's because there is NOT a 1-to-1 ratio for the women of the type of man they want to marry.  That is what I am saying, and have been saying.

The CIA stat does not apply within the population segment I am speaking of.

[Eduard]

My experience, too. 

And direct experience is much more informative than out of context statistics...

My experience three...and I spent 21 years (including trips in the last few years to Russia) in Russia...but what the heck do I know?

 SPAMMING RWD Members in PM's with fabrications.

[KenC]

Of course it makes sense.  Think of your personal experience.  Stats say it can't be so. Foreign marriage.  Age gap. But it worked for you.  

I think you are looking at the entire population with your CIA line.  We are talking about a population segement of the whole, and that is a key factor.

Do you agree with the CIA stat that you had only 1-to-1 opportunity only when you went to Tver?

As for me, I found the ratio to be much greater than 1-to-1, both in Russia and Ukraine.

It seems rather silly to keep quoting the 1-to-1 ratio.  We both know that the reality is that there are many choices of women for Americans going there.  It's because there is NOT a 1-to-1 ratio for the women of the type of man they want to marry.  That is what I am saying, and have been saying.

The CIA stat does not apply within the population segment I am speaking of.

Spin it, twist it, look at it through a prism, try to qualify it, riddle it with personal opinion, personal observation and still the reality of the only legitimate facts available say the ratio is1 to 1
KenC

[Simoni]

Spin it, twist it, look at it through a prism, try to qualify it, riddle it with personal opinion, personal observation and still the reality of the only legitimate facts available say the ratio is1 to 1
KenC

Yep, the ratio is 1 to 1 in the population as a whole.   But not in the segment most guys here are interested in.  Cuz we are talking stratified sample here....and that is good for our serious marriage minded guys.  It does indeed spin it and twist it.  And changes it to our advantage.  Much much better that 1-to-1 

[KenC]

Until you provide factual evidence to the contrary, the number stays at 1:1.
KenC

[Eduard]

It's like talking to a bureaucrat...try to explain to him the reality of a given situation, he will pull out the book of his office rules and will tell you that reality doesn't matter. The only thing that is THE truth and matters is what's in his papers...logical arguments are useless with a bureaucrat...think inside the box!

[LiveFromUkraine]

Well, I am not as experienced as Eduardo with his 21 years of living (full time?) in Russia but I do have "SOME" experience living in Ukraine for the past year.  I have not seen any shortage of men here.  In fact it looks to me like the statistics that have been stated in this thread to be true. 

I also know for a fact that people here are pressured to be married by a certain age.  That is more of a society issue.  If they are not married by a certain age then people consider them "broken" so to speak.  Just the other night we overheard a woman stating that very same thing to a man when we were having dinner.  This fact would also kill the argument that there is no marriage minded men in Russia or Ukraine.  Maybe it is different in Russia than Ukraine.  I doubt it.


But heck, what do I know.  I am just a person with no business in the marriage agency that has been living in Ukraine for the past year.   


Thomas

[Turboguy]

To me it just seems like there is something we are missing somewhere.  Do I think the population there in the 20-35 year range has 8 times the women.  No way!

Digging way back into my memory the statistics I saw for the USA were something like live births in the USA are 50.5 % male and 49.5 percent female.  Males tend to die off a little more and by the teen years those numbers reverse.  Then in old age the percentages swing way to the women.  This is way back in my memory and may be slightly off but should be close.

I know there can be some scary things in the water there but I can't believe there is anything that would cause live births of females to be 60% of the total or anything like that.  Yes, they have more men in the service, and probably a few killed in the wars but Iraq, Vietnam or Korea did not cause any significant imbalance here in the man/woman ratio here in the USA. 

On the other hand I can not disagree with Simoni and Edward, the perception is more women available to date.   Here in the USA finding a good woman is not easy.  There, finding a Mistress or dumping their older wife for a young gal is common.  That is not quite as easy to do here.  There a woman with a child has a far more difficult time finding a guy because there are so many to choose without children.  Here most guys once they are 30 can't find a woman without a few kids and just have to accept it.   If the ratio of men to women is 1:1 both here and there why is it so much easier there to meet good women?  If it was just women wanting to leave the country, then why is the mistress/young girlfriend thing so common?   Russia has two chief exports, oil and wives.  Tens of thousands of K-1 women have already left there.  Still the supply seems neverending. (well maybe not "never" but that is another topic)

As with most topics.  I don't know anything.  It just seems to me that there is something we are missing.  I think Edwards info from the forum would be not all that different from the situation here.  Why are USA women not prowling the streets trying to find a man?   

[tim 360]

Most people who read this thread can easily check the FACTS out themselves and they should before believing in some 8:1 female/male population ratio.  Pure BS.  Those numbers do not work.  How can anyone with half a brain believe that tripe.  All credible sources put the ratio at just about 1:1.  8:1 is just laughable and citing some non-credible unattributable source off some internet forum to substantiate an 8:1 ratio brings it into the realm of science fiction.  Reminds me of agency advertising BS.

[chivo]

I guess one can think what they want, doesn't matter much overall.

I always get a kick out of the statistics crowd, as if something like this can be measured in such a way.

Fact is, without a doubt in my mind, there are more "available" women here than in, say America. This being of the marrying, you actually want to be with (and vice-versa) kind.

I don't know what the argument is. Are there more women than men here?...NO!! Are there more available women as i described? Absolutely. Therein lies the answer.

As someone who has spent most of my life in America and dated there, and as one who has spent the last 4 years here, its not even close, and I dated plenty in America. Still, its not even close...let me repeat...its not even close. Again, just in case it hasn't sunk in for a few of you...its NOT even close.

There are a few reasons for this that I'll let the experts hash out, I don't have the inclination at this time.

Remember, this doesn't mean that they want to pack up and move to another country, or be with any man that happens to show up, those days are long gone (not talking about golddiggers either).

So for all that want to spin a different tune, all I can say is think what you want, you will never, ever convince me otherwise.

Again, how do I know? Well, not by stats, that's for sure. I know because I'm here with them...I live it, I feel it, I touch it, I breath it - how about those facts? Good luck.

chivo   

[tim 360]

Like it or not, this *is* an apples/oranges discussion. The ratio here in the US is also about 1-1 which means there should be plenty of AW without having to cast a wider net. There ARE plenty of women stateside, but they are NOT what many of us are looking for in a life partner, so we don't include them as viable candidates. Russia may very well have the opposite situation where the available marriage minded men are not seen by the women as viable candidates. That doesn't mean that the women here, or the men there don't exist, it just means they are not what we (or the Russian women) are looking for.

The very existence of this site is to help people find what they are looking for. To give them a "third option" instead of staying single, or settling for what's available locally.


I think what has Dan worked up is that when Eduard posts something like "there are 8 marriage minded women for every man" it sounds very much like an assertion of fact. If it were worded to convey opinion "there seems to be a lot more marriage minded women than men" we all could have saved ourselves many pages of argument. Assertions of fact generally require some reputable source to back them up, especially when such assertion is controversial. Dan has provided his.

Jet's post makes perfect sense and gets to the meat of the matter

[Admin]

I don't doubt that you believe those numbers.

I'm just saying the reality on the ground is quite different than those numbers.

I see it with my eyes.  I hear it from many sources.

I don't think all those FSU women are wrong when they say there are not enough men to go around.

But as I have stated, because they believe that to be true, it becomes true to them and their behavior changes. Which is a big plus for a western man seeking a serious relationship.

But we are talking apples and oranges again.

I suspect we are both correct here.

This is not about what I "believe." It is about the FACTS.

Here, yet again, are those sources of factual stats:

• Wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_census
• CIA Factbook -- http://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/rs.html
• Federal State Statistics Service (translated through Google) -- http://tinyurl.com/3wwolw
• Demographic study with sources cited -- http://www.geocities.com/protopop_1999/pyra.html
• State Statistics Committee of Ukraine -- http://www.ukrcensus.gov.ua/eng/results/general/sex/

Yep, the ratio is 1 to 1 in the population as a whole.   But not in the segment most guys here are interested in.  Cuz we are talking stratified sample here....and that is good for our serious marriage minded guys.  It does indeed spin it and twist it.  And changes it to our advantage.  Much much better that 1-to-1 

Really?!? How "much much better"?

The CIA stat does not apply within the population segment I am speaking of.

Which "population segment" is that? Many of the citations referenced provides segmented results.

Well, there is also a 1 to 1 ratio of men to women in the United States. So why do so many men go to the FSU to look for wives? If the only driving force was availability then they should be content to marry any woman who is available. To repeat the obvious: if Russian women were willing to marry any man, the whole MOB business would disappear tomorrow. Women complain that there are no good eligible men available because they do not like the options that are available to them. The men who are the ones that women want are fewer in number than the women who want them. Having dated in Russia and in Canada, I can attest to the fact that it is MUCH, MUCH easier to find women in Russia who want to date you, than it is in Canada. Call it my opinion if you will, but that was my personal experience.

You may well be correct. If your conclusion is the reason for that is because of gender disparity in the FSU, I submit you have drawn a fallacious conclusion.

Maybe so.  I was not part of that, and I would disagree with an 8 to 1 ratio, just as I would disagree with a 1-to-1 ratio (of the population segment ages 21-35 of serous fsu girls seeking marriage).

If Dan is arguing that the male female population in the FSU is 1-to-1, I have no problem with that.  If he is arguing that American men have only a 1-to-1 ratio when they go to the fsu and meet fsu girls seeking marriage, I disagree with him.

Dan is, indeed, providing statistics that state, unequivocally, the male female ratios in the FSU are roughly 1 to 1.

Dan is now, and has been, challenging those who would assert claims that seek to clarify, stratify, manipulate, distort, or in any way modify the objective FACTS, to state their piece. Want me to provide the link in which I first issued this challenge?

I am not going to argue your personal experiences - just as I would not argue your personal experiences with a local guide. I *will*, however, offer those indicators that are objective, reliable, and informative.

To me it just seems like there is something we are missing somewhere.  Do I think the population there in the 20-35 year range has 8 times the women.  No way!

Digging way back into my memory the statistics I saw for the USA were something like live births in the USA are 50.5 % male and 49.5 percent female.  Males tend to die off a little more and by the teen years those numbers reverse.  Then in old age the percentages swing way to the women.  This is way back in my memory and may be slightly off but should be close.

I know there can be some scary things in the water there but I can't believe there is anything that would cause live births of females to be 60% of the total or anything like that.  Yes, they have more men in the service, and probably a few killed in the wars but Iraq, Vietnam or Korea did not cause any significant imbalance here in the man/woman ratio here in the USA. 

On the other hand I can not disagree with Simoni and Edward, the perception is more women available to date.   Here in the USA finding a good woman is not easy.  There, finding a Mistress or dumping their older wife for a young gal is common.  That is not quite as easy to do here.  There a woman with a child has a far more difficult time finding a guy because there are so many to choose without children.  Here most guys once they are 30 can't find a woman without a few kids and just have to accept it.   If the ratio of men to women is 1:1 both here and there why is it so much easier there to meet good women?  If it was just women wanting to leave the country, then why is the mistress/young girlfriend thing so common?   Russia has two chief exports, oil and wives.  Tens of thousands of K-1 women have already left there.  Still the supply seems neverending. (well maybe not "never" but that is another topic)

As with most topics.  I don't know anything.  It just seems to me that there is something we are missing.  I think Edwards info from the forum would be not all that different from the situation here.  Why are USA women not prowling the streets trying to find a man?   

The distribution of population segmented by age group may be seen here -- http://tinyurl.com/6hkccd, and just as you said, there is nothing that would come close to suggesting women outnumber men in ANY category under about 50 years of age. Older than 50, yes - but not in age groups younger than 50 years old.

>>It just seems to me that there is something we are missing<<

Maybe, but not in terms of objective statistics. We have an abundance of those, and they are consistent with one another - in spite of claims to the contrary.

As someone who has spent most of my life in America and dated there, and as one who has spent the last 4 years here, its not even close, and I dated plenty in America. Still, its not even close...let me repeat...its not even close. Again, just in case it hasn't sunk in for a few of you...its NOT even close.

There are a few reasons for this that I'll let the experts hash out, I don't have the inclination at this time.

Cool! Sound like we are on to something.

I look forward to seeing what "the experts" have to say about this - now that we have (hopefully) resolved the issue of gender disparity (following about 700 pages of arguing).

- Dan

[Turboguy]

Maybe what we are missing is just the cultural thing.  Most American women by the time they are in their thirties have messed up their life and their bodies.  Many more of the women in the FSU have only messed up their life if anything.  As someone posted earlier most of us could get lots of dates with overweight women who have a few kids.  Maybe it is just the better physical condition of the ladies there that give us broader choices instead of choices between broader women.  Maybe the answer is that the ratio of women we would find appealing is 8:1 more than we find in America.

I have a feeling if you lined up 100 18 year old AW picked at random and 100 FSU women picked at random and judged them on beauty and appeal the AW would win or at least tie.  Line up 100 30 year old women from both regions and I don't think there would be a contest. 

[Simoni]

Which "population segment" is that? Many of the citations referenced provides segmented results.

Apples and oranges again.  I am not talking about your "facts" (I won't shout them as you do) that you keep posting.  I accept them, but they are cold dead numbers.

I'm talking about the percentage of available women within the target age range of 21-35

I've stated why I think women in that age group in the FSU are more interested in marriage than men in that same age group, and how that impacts the 1-to-1 ratio.    It's my opinion.  I have stated what I see and how I arrived at my opinion.

Common respect holds that one should accept someone else's opinion instead of changing the argument to something that they are not arguing about.