HotRussianBrides.com

[Jim Nasium]

 

I first came across HRB when I saw it advertised on the other board. Despite the ridiculous name, which should be a "Red Flag" in and of itself to all (just who do you think they're trying to target with that?) I decided to check it out. Those here who know me well know I'll try almost any source to contact sincere ladies.

At my first visit to HRB I thought registration was necessary in order to use the site's detailed search feature. Part of the process is establishing a user profile.

I initially placed the minimum amount of information required to establish my 'profile', because I wanted to get on to searching the site. I DID NOT include any photos, NOR did I include any essay-like descriptions defining me, my ideas of what a relationship should be like, or the sort of lady I was seeking.  

Shortly after registering I began receiving emails from HRB notifying me that ladies were writing "letters" in response to my (extremely limited) 'profile'; quite a few in fact. Also, as you might imagine, I was notified of numerous "admirers" as well. 

This did not come as a complete surprise because I had a similar experience long ago with "Globaladies.com" with another incomplete profile that listed only my age and the fact that I have no children.  

So this "interest" was an OBVIOUS 'Red Flag' for me. I think it's ridiculous to believe a woman would write to a man without seeing at least one photo, and especially without knowing anything about his character, personality, interests, goals, etc.  

Therefore I quickly understood that HRB was yet another agency where correspondence cannot be trusted. In my mind, HRB quickly joined the class of Globaladies.com, AnastasiaWeb, Oksanalove, etc. 

I went back to the site to research HRB's operating policies… 

After thoroughly reading the posted policies I understood the agency was offering a business model that was NOT going to work for me. To their credit they make this very clear. I had already made three trips to Ukraine by this time and did not require, nor desire, the use of their "assistance".  

The policies also mentioned, however, that the exchange of postal addresses was allowed via online correspondence. 

Having read this, shortly thereafter I decided to create a 'complete' profile in order to attempt to contact and correspond briefly with some of the more interesting ladies at the site, those I could not find elsewhere, with the SOLE PURPOSE of obtaining a postal address.  

As most here realize, once the postal address is obtained, a guy can take a variety of measures to eventually contact and communicate with a sincere lady directly.  

Again, I had no desire to sign up for the offered "hand-holding" services; I simply wanted to contact ladies and try to make my own arrangements for meetings. 

However, though I made a few efforts, I was NOT ABLE to obtain a single postal address from a lady. I made my request for a postal address after establishing supposed initial mutual interest. Of course I received a variety of excuses in the "replies" to my requests, such as "the need for HRB to protect me" to "you may write to me at my (affiliate) agency address". 

For me this was Red Flag #2 (not counting the agency's name) 

IMO, a sincere woman who has developed some preliminary interest in a man will always share her postal address. The only potentially understandable, albeit weak, excuse is she does not want her parents to know she is entertaining the thought of a relationship with a foreign man. 

Therefore I wrote off HRB as a legitimate source of contacting ladies. 

You, of course, are free to reach your own conclusions. 

Like many others I am of the opinion that a guy should never depend entirely on any agency that does not allow direct contact with ladies, and/or that wishes to monopolize the entire experience. 

Despite specific language to the contrary posted on the site, I suspect HRB either doesn't allow a lady to provide her postal address, or, even worse, (and I believe FAR more likely) many/most of the popular or more attractive ladies are NOT actually writing letters. 

Yeah, I know, what a shocking revelation that would be. 

I believe correspondence via HRB is very similar in fashion to AnastasiaWeb, where small-time 'affiliate' agencies carry out the bulk of correspondence 'on behalf' of the women, "supposedly" under the radar of the watchful, responsible and client-focused head office. 

Despite AWeb's horrific reputation, if given a choice of corresponding only through AWeb and HRB, I would choose AWeb. 

Of course I wouldn't recommend anyone use AWeb, but I have personally met with ladies I contacted through AWeb, so at least I know it's actually possible to make contact and meet a lady by using that "service". 

Perhaps you can also have similar results via HRB, if your willing to stick it out long enough.


But why even bother???
 

The HRB administrator, to his credit, has proven quick to respond to problems or concerns from male customers, at least on this and another RW forum. This, however, (again, purely IMO) is nothing more than positive Public Relations. The small relative cost of a 'total credits refund' certainly must pale in comparison to the revenue generated by those too stupid, naïve, lazy or indifferent to question the correspondence in general or make inquiries to potential flags. This is simply an effective implementation of cost/benefit decision-making IMO.

Personally, I fall into the 'indifferent' category. I never attempted to obtain satisfaction. I began using HRB's correspondence services with my eyes 'wide open'. I was not surprised to experience the outcome I've described, and I was willing to forego a small amount of money to see what did or did not develop. 

In my case, I don't want the agency's full service approach (I only want postal addresses), so receiving credited refunds would serve me no benefit at all. Since I cannot obtain even one postal address, and therefore cannot trust the correspondence, to continue would be like banging my head against the wall because it feels good when I stop.

The HRB administrator in previous posts on another board has told readers that the HRB model is not for everyone. Well, obviously I would not argue with that. He might also share with us his marketing pitch that HRB provides so much value, etc. That may or may not be true; certainly I cannot comment on that. Maybe if you sign up for the full package at HRB you can go over, be well taken care of, and actually meet the lady(ies) with whom you corresponded through the website. 

But will these ladies, after all your heartfelt, lengthy correspondence, honestly know anything about YOU???


I think I know the answer to that question.

 

[BC]

Jim,

If you had to choose only one agency which would you pick?

Tell us about them.

You also don't tell us what the timeframe was for your experience with HRB recent or long ago?

[Maxx]

You don't give any information about what agency in the FSU you were dealing with. It is my experience that a high percentage of these FSU agencies with big international Western partners involve themselves in all sorts of shennagans, scams and outright criminal fraud. The Western partners have a difficult time keeping order even if they are so inclined to do so. Frankly I believe their main concern is as you stated, shielding themselves from bad publicity and from what I noticed, lawsuits and criminal investigations (rare).

In regard to lawsuits these can be used against the clients who complain to loudly and cannot show rock solid proof that there was a scam. I had gotten scammed by a Russian agency working in cahoots with an American partner who handled the credit card purchases and wired the money back to Russia etc. to this agency. I had documented proof in my hands of the scam as I had it investigated very throughly. When I consulted with my attorney I was told that any legal action would fail as it would be next to impossible to get witnesses from the FSU to testify or cross examine and that you cannot cross examine documents. Bottom line it is a free for all in the MOB business and the American partners know it. Worse yet the victims of the fraud can be tied up in expensive lawsuits and so on. This is a dirty business and if you are looking for a wife out of it you better expect these kinds of things and try any sidestep all of this as best as possible.   

Maxx  

[Jim Nasium]

BC,

I registered with HRB sometime shortly after the first of this year. About a month or so later I starting using the agency's correspondence service. I wrote sparingly over the course of roughly three months before I threw in the towel. 

Regarding agencies, I would make recommendations based on three primary criteria:  ladies' overall degree of sincerity, in-country service (accommodations, logistics, etc.) and correspondence. 

As you already know, there are no absolutes or guarantees in anything related to this pursuit. I should also emphasize that my recommendations are based on MY personal experience. To put it nicely, just because something works for me does not mean every other guy will see the same results.

First off I would mention the Angelika Network. If I had to choose only one agency this would be my selection, hands down. It's been my primary source for contacting women. I've had a high success rate in getting positive replies. In my experience (coming up on two years) in writing and four trips (124 very active days in Ukraine) meeting with ladies, the great majority of ladies I met through this network of agencies were sincerely open to the idea of finding their future with a good foreign man. The ladies I met were very much as 'advertised', both in appearance and other, more important, qualities. 

Normally I use the Angelika network solely to obtain contact information, and then communicate with ladies directly. However, prior to my last visit, for the sake of convenience, and based on the recommendation of a friend, I used the agency's 'email translation and forwarding' service. After making my last visit, I now know without a doubt the correspondence was legitimate. 

The Angelika staff even identified one lady as a scammer (based on reporting from other clients) and, without my request, notified me and credited back the full cost of correspondence with that particular lady. 

In my opinion, the Angelika Network is by far the most reputable source for obtaining contact information for sincere ladies. And I also now believe that if you are going to communicate with ladies via an agency, the best one out there is Angelika. 

I would also recommend KhersonGirls - as long as Kevin is around to stay on top of things. I should mention that I've never written to ladies from this agency, but I did meet a few during two short visits to Kherson. 

Another recommendation is IDI Bridge in Kharkov. Sergei is a fantastic guy and can be trusted 100%. 

Cindy Agency is also a good source for sincere ladies and good logistical support. However, one needs to be cautious when using their correspondence feature. 

I have also had good success making direct contact and meeting sincere women from APrettyWoman. 

I also met a number of very sincere ladies using Bogdana agency in Vinnitsa. 

Last but not least, I also have to mention the services of FirstDream. 

On my first two trips to Ukraine I attended 15 separate parties put on by FirstDream and can say with complete confidence that the great majority of the ladies attending those parties were very sincere about finding their potential special man. FirstDream will also provide a guy with outstanding logistical support and I continue to use them for these services. 

With regard to FirstDream I will add one other service category - advisory services. 

Jack has demonstrated time and time again to be exceptionally knowledgeable about all facets of RW/UW and the process of their pursuit. I highly recommend any man who is serious about finding a special lady from the FSU to get to know him and listen to what he says. Jack's advice has proven invaluable to my own efforts, and I would not be where I am today without his outstanding assistance. 

There are those out there who complain about Jack's personality and straight-forward, direct approach. In my opinion, if a guy can't discuss his situation with Jack without getting his feelings hurt or wetting his pants, then he has no business attempting to find a RW/UW in the first place. 

[Jim Nasium]

Maxx, 

As usual you bring up very valid points and sage advice. 

I hope readers of this board that are still in the game, especially those yet to make their first visit, will pay attention to your words. 

Business, in general, in the FSU operates under a different set of ethical guidelines than, in general, those found in western countries. This simply adds another risk factor in what is already a risky proposition.  

I agree with you that guys need to understand this, accept it as part of the process, and attempt to mitigate it as best they can. This is why I chose to make this post in the first place.

The best way for a guy to mitigate the risk of dealing with what might be a disreputable agency is to be made aware of their possibility based on the experience of others, do his own research and then decide for himself whether or not to do business with a given agency. 

On the other board, there appears to be at least a few men that are very happy with their experience with HRB. Judging from their posts, all is great and guys are looking forward to their visit and meeting their lady(ies). I hope those guys find their dream and will post trip reports about it in the future; I'll be curious to see how those visits turn out.

I think we might have a slightly different view about these agencies, however. 

I actually don't consider agencies like AWeb, HRB, Globaladies, etc. to be "scam". Are they "suspect"? Yes, of course I think so. 

I believe the general business model used by agencies like HRB, AWeb and others, whether intentional or not, effectively takes advantage of gullible, unsuspecting men wearing extra-strength rose-colored glasses, who buy into the agency marketing propaganda without making even remote efforts to understand or educate themselves. Even if it is in fact with clear intent, I really don't fault the agencies for taking advantage of such clients. 'Caveat Emptor' holds true here. 

For example, believe it or not, in past trips I met guys who relied solely on contacting ladies through the type of agencies you described and I mentioned by name (specifically, Globladies and AWeb) only to realize upon arrival that they had no way of actually meeting "their" women. After all the time, money and effort spent "corresponding" they arrived in-country literally at ground zero.  

Who is at fault here, the men or the agency(ies)? From my point of view, I blame the men. 

Some time ago on the other board I posted my experiences in dealing with OksanaLove. In short, my experience with correspondence through them was ridiculous. But I chalk it up to experience and lessons learned, nothing more. Frankly, I feel I'm better off for having dealt with them. I think a case could be made for fraud, and a suit could be filed by me or others I talked to with similar experiences, but I would never bother with that. What's the point? 

Take for example the question of the legitimacy of 'first letters' received from women at AWeb. Remember all that talk about a class action lawsuit against AWeb a while back? I remember when AWeb changed at least part of it's posted policies on its webpage, to include some language for a 'scam policy'. In that policy they mention something to the affect that their affiliate agencies will write 'first letters' from ladies. Also, back when it mattered to me, I used to inquire with the AWeb customer service feature if a lady wrote the first letter herself, or if the affiliate did. I would get straight-forward "yes" or "no" answers to my inquiries. The customer service even admitted once to me that "at least" 50% of all first letters from ladies were written by affiliate agency staff. If the first letter was written by a staffer, what's to keep them from writing the second, third or all of them?

Why should guys even bother with this kind of thing when there are other, more reputable options available?


 

[Maxx]

Jim

I have no idea how these large international agencies can keep their FSU partners from scamming. The only thing I can think of is to use undercover operations and women detectives. Then make examples of those caught by firing them at the annual gathering of FSU partners and their American partner. One principal of one such American agency I had contacted called it a "public execution" as their FSU partner had given me the exclusive contract between his agency and this American partner to study for a possibility of setting up a competing service. This is getting complicated so I will end it right there.

Angelika you mentioned. Angelika has a policy and practise that all letters written by their ladies are kept in file. That is the original hand written letter each in the hand writing of the ladies. This is an EXCELLENT policy IMO. However that does not prevent other types of scamming. Women can be forced to pay to get letters, pay for telephone translation on their end, pay to have the interpreters or the agency owner promote them to men.  Interpreters can send personal notes to male clients telling them what a wonderful impression they made on a certain lady. Of course she pays for this as well.  Usually the agency owners have connections with the local ZAGS officials and payoffs are done there. Same with the passport people. Their ladies have "emergencies" and need WU's sent of course you know where that money goes. Money for "special services" such as English lessions LOL. There is so many tricks it boggles the mind. I know because it was done to me and I spent thousands of dollars (wasted money IMO) investigating it and guess what? It was one of the "good guy agencys" that you mentioned.

Maxx

 

[BC]

Jim,

You seem to know a lot about agencies, how they work and have been 'there' quite a few times.

Have you found your match or are you still looking?

[Jack]

Hey Big Maxx, hope you are doing well, write me sometime.

Big Maxx, can you tell us which of the good guy agencies you got scammed by?

[Maxx]

No, but it wasn't you Jack.

BTW Jack I told you about TR (not them either) but you used their service anyway until "N" tried to bump her introduction fees behind your back. Did you forget our phone conversation from a few months before when I told you that her agency sent me a phoney letter? It is easy to forget things at our age :-)

Maxx

 

[Jim Nasium]

BC,

I have met many wonderful women and found many matches, but I recently found one that I believe is "the One".

I don't want to jinx anything, so I'll just say if things don't deteriorate then my search is over.

We'll see how things transpire from here.

[BC]

Jack,

Is there any agency Jim mentioned in his post (besides HRB) that you would not recommend?

[Jack]

well ofcourse Anasatasiascamweb, as well I could not recommend any of my clients to use OksanaLove.
 
Maybe Jim used Hot Russian Brides at about the same time as the tv reporter who was getting scammed. I think Jet or Hot Russian Bride adminastrator would need to clarify that.
 
Many of the agencies Jim listed are good agencies, Angelica, KhersonGirls, IDI-Bridge, Cindy Agency.
 
APrettyWoman, so-so. I think their are some diamonds on APW but a lot of scammers as well.

[Bruno]

APrettyWoman, so-so. I think their are some diamonds on APW but a lot of scammers as well.

Normaly, i need close my big mouth because "A Pretty Woman" is my sponsor since 1998... but since these time, they have change a lot...

At the origin, the only one owner was a Dutch guy living both in Holland and South Africa... it was the good time...

Since i have start again last, i have use them again... and begin the problem... they don't pay me... ok, i contact the owner but he explain me that he is associate with a American group... that he have almost no more control... the American group will not more pay me the 35% from the original contract... after some speaking, i have my 30%... not so bad... surprise when i receive the check... not more from holland or South Africa... but from the "Bank of America" california, Anastasia....

This is nothing... but my previous girlfriend, Galina was client of these site... each woman, when she register, receive a e-mail who promise her 20$ for each new girls she refert... And Galina have explain me what have happen with one of her friend... her friend was on the site and short in money... she have find 10 new young woman at university, she have give to each woman 5$... a total of 50$ but on her side, the woman have win 200$ with APW... these woman are in no way interessed in marry a western man... all the e-mail have lead to mail.ru, where the woman check the account...

Ok, after this, i am finish with APW... i need other sponsor... if possible, not a marriage agency... someone who work in side service ( what i have not ) like translator, lawer, book, tourist agency, ... if someone know a site who work with % of commission in these sector, inform me via PM... now that i have open my big mouth, my "collaboration" will be certainly finish with APW....

And guys, don't worry, several agency work like APW... do you find mornal site with very sexy woman between 18 and 25 year... no old woman, no fat, no ugly, without child... only babe who can easily find a man localy...

And several agency steal profile from other site... my actual girlfriend have only post on one free site... but now, she have her profile on more that 20 other site... where people pay between 4$ and 10$ for her e-mail info and phone... infortunaly, she have a new e-mail and don't use anymore the home phone... maybe i go find her one day in these black list because she never reply to e-mail... who is the scammer... her of the agency who have steal the profile.... of course, the agency but who will be listed!!! HER :X

 

[HRBAdmin]

Jim,

Unfortunately, due to my current schedule, I will be unable to address your concerns for several days. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you provide me with your username on our service so I can look into your particular case further. Feel free to send it directly to my email addy if you aren't comfortable posting it here (david@russianlovematch.com or david@hotrussianbrides.com).

[Jim Nasium]

Dave,

I can understand your desire to investigate my claims. I would expect this, in fact.

But just for the record I want to be clear with you - I don't have any "concerns" I'd like you to "address" for me personally.

I mean no disrespect to you here; perhaps "address your concerns" and "look into your particular case further" are just semantics, poor word choice, or 'old habit'.

Come to think of it, "address your concerns" could be construed as a humerous play on words, since part of my statements relate to my "concern" over not being able to obtain a postal "address", despite this bold language at your site:

Correspondence Policy
Why are members prohibited from exchanging personal contact information other than postal addresses?http://www.hotrussianbrides.com/pub/corpolicy.asp

or the language on this page:

Members and Ladies are NOT permitted to exchange personal contact information of any kind other than their postal address.
http://www.hotrussianbrides.com/pub/terms.asp

Anyway...

With regard to me personally, as I mentioned above, I'm not seeking satisfaction in any way. I no longer have any desire to use your services.

Now, on the other hand, I can see you might want to make investigation into my claims in order to better assist your current and future clients.

Additionally, I would also understand if you wish to find evidence with which you can counter my claims.

My user name at your site is "Mishat".

I went through some old personal emails to see if I couldn't better approximate the dates of my involvement with your agency. It looks to me like I originally registered (posting the initially incomplete profile) on or about January 3 of this year, and later placed the completed profile around March 8 or so. Hopefully that helps somewhat. 

Unfortunately I didn't keep copies of my HRB correspondence. I checked your website tonight, and the emails I sent via your agency are no longer accessible to me. I would've saved them, had I any confidence in their value, as letters are obviously very important evidence when filing the K-1 application. If you can access them you have my permission to post them here (as long as you edit out my real name).

While I was digging around my personal emails I found an exchange you and I shared back on February 16 of this year. I'd forgotten all about it. The exchange concerned a lady that was dropped from your site. You were very helpful with me and I appreciated your efforts at the time (and still do).

Interestingly, the last two emails in the exchange are very revealing with respect to my other "concern" - that being the "first letters" I received in response to my very incomplete profile.

I'd post them here, but only with your permission.

Looking back on it, your last email to me was a big reason why I went into your agency with my "eyes wide open".

I think your Correspondence Policy could be adjusted to reflect this insight. AnastasiaWeb made an effort along the same lines:

"The AnastasiaWeb email forwarding system links men in America with ladies in Eastern Europe who are represented by over 450 local agencies in the ladies' home towns. The local agencies sign up on a separate Russian language website, and they are allowed to list their ladies. Some agencies perform matchmaking services for their ladies by looking through our database of men and forwarding a lady's introductory letter to men in our system. We consider this practice to be a proper, wholly ethical and appropriate matchmaking service performed for the ladies on our system by their local agencies. We do not consider this practice to be fraudulent correspondence."
http://anastasiaweb.com/antiscam_policy.php

[HRBAdmin]

Jim,

I apologize for my choice of words. I deal with who knows how many customers on any given day, so that phrase ("address your concerns") is pretty much a fixture of my gray matter now. Old habit indeed. 

What I meant to say is that I want to address the issues you raised in your email for all who care. At the same time I would hope my reply opens your eyes a little further as to what we as a company are personally dealing with in this industry.

We are currently very busy implementing some major changes to our service, so that is occupying the majority of my time now. Regardless, I hope to have a reply for you and the board by the end of the week.

[TigerPaws]

Jim,

I apologize for my choice of words. I deal with who knows how many customers on any given day, so that phrase ("address your concerns") is pretty much a fixture of my gray matter now. Old habit indeed. 

What I meant to say is that I want to address the issues you raised in your email for all who care. At the same time I would hope my reply opens your eyes a little further as to what we as a company are personally dealing with in this industry.

We are currently very busy implementing some major changes to our service, so that is occupying the majority of my time now. Regardless, I hope to have a reply for you and the board by the end of the week.

 

I have been keeping quiet these past few weeks because we are pushing to get our boat ready by December, still I have tried to follow the discussion closely.

-- HRBAdmin? As someone who assists a number of men (for free) in their search for a lady from the FSU I would be very interested in reading you reply to Jim Nasium's concerns and comments about your agency (HRB). Jim brings to the table a number of excellent questions and concerns as well as very specific examples for you to address.

I will be looking forward to your response as I am sure many others will be as well. A good reputation is hard earned and easily lost, you have an oppertunity to address one of the MOB/agency's biggest problems who to trust?

 

[HRBAdmin]

UPDATE:

The purpose of this message is to let the board know I've been very busy this week working on the new features we just implemented on our website (about an hour ago). My time is currently being occupied with customer inquiries regarding these features, and will likely be so well into next week.

I've been working on a reply for the board whenever I could catch a free moment. Unfortunately, those moments have been very few and far between for me this week. I should be able to post a detailed reply  by the middle of next week, after things have calmed down from the weekend rush we always experience.

I apologize for the wait. 

[HRBAdmin]

I apologize for the delay in my reply. Jim, after reading your post, I summarized most of the issues you brought up into 4 main points.

1. You had an incomplete profile on our website (without photos) that was attracting letters and admirers.
2. As such, you believe our agencies are writing on behalf of the ladies.
3. You could not obtain postal addresses even though our correspondence policy states otherwise.
4. You feel our refund policy is no more than a PR effort.

I will cover all of these points in a bit. First though Jim, I would like to address your comment regarding the "ridiculous" name of HotRussianBrides.com. Maybe the title of HRB's sister site, RussianLoveMatch.com, will prove somewhat more palatable to the more conservative Russian bride seekers out there. However, any of you who are familiar with SEO optimization should be able to appreciate the value of a URL titled "HotRussianBrides," when the term, "Russian brides," is one of the most popular search terms submitted by individuals who are looking for a service such as ours. 

So, who are we trying to attract with a name like "HotRussianBrides?" Jim, we attracted you. Is that to say you consider yourself one of those other questionable individuals only a name such as HotRussianBrides would attract? I suppose we could argue semantics all day but the bottom line is that most men who embark on this endeavor are not searching for ugly or average looking women. When it comes down to it, everyone who participates in this process is searching for something he can't find (or get) here, and more often than not, the physical attributes of the ladies plays a major role in each man's decision making process.

On to issue number one. Jim, since the time that you experienced these problems, we have made several changes to our website. Namely, a member with an incomplete profile is no longer able to receive regular email. In addition, if he does not have at least one photo posted, ladies are no longer able to select him as a favorite (and thus be his admirer). However, ladies are able to send members who have incomplete profiles a "request for info." This is a free notification that lets a member know which areas of his profile are incomplete.

While this fixes the problem you experienced from a technical standpoint, it still does not address it at the source. Thus, we removed two of our agencies around March of this year who we were able to prove were sending email on behalf of the ladies. We also warned all of our agencies that such practices will NOT be tolerated in our service. We went further to create a demerit system for the ladies as well as the agencies in order to hit the agencies where it hurts (their commissions) when we feel they are attempting to take advantage of our members.

So, in reference to issue number 2, Jim, you have suspicions that our agencies are corresponding on behalf of their women. Well Jim, SO DO WE! I'll tell you how we are trying to fix that in a bit. First, I want to describe what we feel is wrong with this industry in a nutshell.

The problem with the "MOB" industry is that many of these agencies have practiced business all their years in an economic system so rife with illegitimacy, that they know no other way of turning a profit other than by illegitimate means. They have little to no business acumen and think the only way to make money is by cheating people out of it. They focus only on the short term and how much money they can make right now rather than how they can develop a solid customer base through exceptional (AND legitimate) service.

Please do not think this our opinion regarding all agencies. That could not be further from the truth. We have the pleasure of working with numerous agencies who are highly professional AND ethical, and who treat our members with the utmost respect. If not for those agencies, my job would prove much more difficult.

Another major problem with this industry is you have a lot of very beautiful, lazy girls who want a good looking, financially stable husband but who refuse to put in the legwork needed to find one. Thus, these ladies sign up at an agency and say, "I want a husband. Send some letters for me and let me know when someone decent wants to come visit." We do not condone such activity and have made this explicitly clear to the agencies with which we work.

Does this mean that will never happen in our service? Unfortunately, no. But when and if it does, you can rest assured we will take immediate action to correct the situation by any means necessary. Please realize I'm not simply typing this to cover our collective rear end. The fact of the matter is that no company in this industry can fully guarantee their service will always be scam free. But they should guarantee to make things right if one of their members falls prey to a scammer while using their service.
 
So, what are we doing to address these problems? Well, besides removing any agency that we can prove is practicing illegitimate correspondence, we are altering the manner in which our agencies receive commissions in hopes of removing any incentive they may have to correspond on behalf of their ladies.

Now, instead of compensating agencies for the email traffic their ladies produce, they will instead be awarded commissions based upon video chat traffic. This will ensure at the very least that the actual lady is the one doing the corresponding, as she will be displayed via a live video stream. In addition, this change affords us the opportunity to offer our Premium Members unlimited emailing for a single monthly fee, rather than having to pay for each and every email they send.

Regarding issue number three, Jim you concede you were using our service with the sole intention of obtaining a lady's postal address in order to communicate with her away from the site and ultimately meet her on your own. In doing so, you were knowingly violating the terms & conditions under which our service operates, the same terms to which you agreed to upon signing up with our service.

While some members may attempt to abuse the privilege of being able to exchange postal addresses, the vast majority use it as another avenue to communicate in which they can send more personal letters that they may not feel comfortable sending through our service. That is understandable. However, in your case, you were using our service in a manner inconsistent with the rules, hoping to circumvent our introduction services while obtaining satisfactory results in the process. Why you feel you had the right to do so, I am not quite sure.

Throughout your correspondence history, you attempted to contact eight ladies. Three of them did not reply to your initial introduction letter. Another three replied yet that was where the correspondence ended as you did not reply back. You did not request postal addresses from any of those ladies, so we'll leave them out of this.

So, there were two ladies from whom you requested postal addresses - TWO. Jim, you made it sound as if you requested the postal addresses of a number of women. To be fair to the others who will read this, I think this is one point you should have clarified. As you mentioned, one lady gave you the address of her agency, while another claimed she lived with her parents and would not be comfortable accepting mail from you at that particular address at that point in time. Jim, I can promise you, had you asked more ladies for their personal postal addresses, chances are, you would have received them. I review emails on a daily basis and there are hundreds of postal addresses traveling through our email system at any given time, and they aren't just coming from the men.

We absolutely do NOT tell the ladies to abstain from providing our addresses as Jim suspects, nor does it mean a lady does not exist if she is not comfortable providing her home address. Some ladies do prefer to provide the address of their agency because they live in an area or building where their mailbox is not very secure. Such ladies have their regular postal mail delivered to their work address as the chances of it arriving and not getting stolen are much greater there. For obvious reasons, many women do not wish to receive email from men at their work address, so they provide the next best thing, their agency's address. Regardless of this, Jim, had you contacted me and expressed your concerns, I would have gladly investigated the reasons behind these two ladies' hesitance to provide their actual postal address.
 
Lastly, Jim you feel that our refund policy is no more than a PR effort. Your post reads, "The small relative cost of a 'total credits refund' certainly must pale in comparison to the revenue generated by those too stupid, naïve, lazy or indifferent to question the correspondence in general or make inquiries to potential flags."

Jim, can you tell me how much money a service such as ours costs to maintain each month? Better yet, can you tell me how much money we bring in as a result of the revenue generated at the expense of our members who are, in your opinion, too "stupid" or "naïve" to know any better? I can tell you our website costs on average $120,000 a month to operate and maintain. How much do we bring in each month? It's not anywhere near that. Thus, as is the norm with any new business, we have been operating at a loss since the website's inception. Yet Jim, in your opinion, we can afford to refund the members that we do each month, simply because we make more than enough off those too gullible to question the legitimacy of our service.

Jim, we offer refunds to those who request them (and even to those who do not) not only because it makes for much happier members in the long run, but because it is the right thing to do. Of course we are in this industry to make money. Of course we hope to one day turn a net profit. But we're not going to do so unethically. We will continue to operate with the integrity and professionalism that we have been since day one. Providing refunds to those who are not satisfied or even to those who may not be looking for a refund is simply an extension of that practice.

Jim if you would like to take a visit to our office and see how we operate as well as receive some hard facts regarding this industry and our financial numbers, we'll welcome you with open arms. We are NOT a company that has anything to hide. As a matter of fact, I want to take the time to extend this offer to each and every one of our Premium Members who may have reservations regarding our service.

To top it off, if any such member, after meeting with our CEO and seeing what it is we are all about, still has reservations regarding the legitimacy of our company, we will refund them for the ENTIRE amount of services they have purchased on our website to date, no questions asked. This is not posturing. It is a real proposition. If I have any takers, please let me know.  

Folks, here's the bottom line, if you don't like the fact that our service implements rules or that we have to sell a certain number of introduction packages in order to hopefully one day break even, there are obviously myriads of other services available to you. We wish you the best in your search. However, if you do follow the guidelines we implement, I assure you, we will do everything within our capability to help make your experience a successful one.

Lastly, Jim, I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to post your opinions regarding our service. While I realize you were only posting your opinions for the good of those who may read them (at least I hope that was your only motivation for the post), I felt it necessary that others see both sides of this story. I wish everyone, including you Jim, a great day.

David Demaree
Administrator
HotRussianBrides.com
RussianLoveMatch.com 


PS - Jim you were wrong to assume, since an email credit refund was of no value to you, that contacting us with your concerns would not have helped matters. We do offer cash refunds as well, and we have done so in your case, even after the fact. Call it good PR or anything you want. We call it good customer relations. Now, when you consider how we treat those who use our service with the sole intention of circumventing our rules, how do you think we treat our members who follow the rules? Please allow two business days for the refund ($60) to be reflected in your credit card statement.  

[Jack]

whoaaaaaa, $120,000 a month (almost 1.5 million a year) is your cost to keep up your website every month!  Momma meea, am I in the wrong business. Oooops, damn, I am in the same business!  Wow, that's some monthly overhead Hot Russian brides. I think you will need to sell a lot of tour packages to break even.
 
David, so if I understand correctly, you feel you have weeded out the bad apples and what agencies you are working with now are on the up and up? And no agencies you are working with now should ever write a man pretending to be a lady in their agency and they have been advised they are not suppose to be doing this?
 
And the ladies are allowed to give their home address and phone number to any men who are writing them if they wish and Hot Russian Brides will not edit this information out or not try to persuade any ladies not to give out this information, correct?  If a lady in the Hot Russian Bride network wanted to give her home address, personal e-mail address or phone number in her first reply back to a man, she could?
 
If these are true statements then I compliment you and your agency for the steps you are taking.
 
David, with your knowledge of Russian/Ukraine women would you say that many are internet savy, that many know how to send, receive e-mails from i-net cafes? Would you say, think, or suspect that many Russian women have more than one e-mail address? Are the ladies who come to your agency to send, receive e-mails charged anything or is this a free service for them?
 
 Thanks for taking the time to respond David and glad to have you contibuting on the RWD.

[TigerPaws]

David,

 Having spent some time going through your site I found several profles of known and or highly suspected scammers. How are you policing your site?

 Also like Jack I find the $120,000 dollar per month figure to be difficult to believe.

 I will say that the quality of the photographs on your site is generally very good even professional in many cases which is often a reason to be concerned.

[BC]

Also like Jack I find the $120,000 dollar per month figure to be difficult to believe.

Agree Tiger... I'd hate to be the investor.

[Turboguy]

I am the owner and webmaster for about 6 websites some of which are pretty complicated.    The biggest investment I have in any is $ 24.95 a month.   The cheapest $ 7.95 a month

You can get hosting with a dedicated server for under $ 100.00 a month with every form of web capability that you could ever want.   That leaves you the programing and to be honest I doubt if somone like yahoo spends much more than $ 120,000 for their actaul website.   I think that figure is out in left field.

[Admin]

I am the owner and webmaster for about 6 websites some of which are pretty complicated. The biggest investment I have in any is $ 24.95 a month. The cheapest $ 7.95 a month

You can get hosting with a dedicated server for under $ 100.00 a month with every form of web capability that you could ever want. That leaves you the programing and to be honest I doubt if somone like yahoo spends much more than $ 120,000 for their actaul website. I think that figure is out in left field.

And I suspect it is merely a typo.

- Dan

[Jim Nasium]

Dave,

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I will address some of the points you made.

 

So, who are we trying to attract with a name like "HotRussianBrides?" Jim, we attracted you. Is that to say you consider yourself one of those other questionable individuals only a name such as HotRussianBrides would attract?

[/size]
This is a "ridiculous" assertion Dave. I think I was very clear in my first post when I said "Those here who know me well know I'll try almost any source to contact sincere ladies." Again, despite the chosen moniker and business model I decided to take a stab.


 

Does this (affiliate agencies writing on behalf of women) mean that will never happen in our service? Unfortunately, no. But when and if it does, you can rest assured we will take immediate action to correct the situation by any means necessary.[/size]

This really gets to the heart of the matter and the motivation for my post. The fact that it has happened, and the very real possibility that it can happen in the future, is the very problem put forth by adhering exclusively to your business model of absolute control over client correspondence. Male clients, especially those new to this pursuit, need to understand the risks involved when writing and communicating with women through agencies that attempt to monopolize communications.

I applaud all your efforts to address and clean up problems, as well as your efforts to provide restitution. Unfortunately, you cannot guarantee that an affiliate agency (or even the occasional rogue employee of such) will not in the future chose to violate their responsibilities for short-term financial gain. As you and many here (including me) have stated, honest business ethics are not something that is ingrained in the mindset of all who practice business in the FSU. This is a risk we all face when in this pursuit, whether we are searching or providing various support services.

This is why I suggest that men do not rely exclusively on agencies that follow your business model. There is enough risk in even direct correspondence with women, so why take on additional risk (agency controlled correspondence) if one does not have to?
 

Regarding issue number three, Jim you concede you were using our service with the sole intention of obtaining a lady's postal address in order to communicate with her away from the site and ultimately meet her on your own. In doing so, you were knowingly violating the terms & conditions under which our service operates,… Why you feel you had the right to do so, I am not quite sure.[/size][/size][/size]

Because I want to eliminate the agency (any agency) from my correspondence as soon as possible, because I am not able to trust such correspondence.

Throughout your correspondence history, you attempted to contact eight ladies. Three of them did not reply to your initial introduction letter. Another three replied yet that was where the correspondence ended as you did not reply back. You did not request postal addresses from any of those ladies, so we'll leave them out of this.

[/size]So, there were two ladies from whom you requested postal addresses - TWO. Jim, you made it sound as if you requested the postal addresses of a number of women. To be fair to the others who will read this, I think this is one point you should have clarified.

 
[/quote]
Yes, you're right, I should clarify this. I would have given specific examples in my last post but I was unable to retrieve any of those emails from the site when I logged in (they - both received and sent - had been removed. Normally, I copy to my PC all my correspondence (and I still have all of it) but in this instance, I did not bother because I decided it was all illegitimate, and I knew I would not be meeting those ladies.

Now, about the number of addresses requested… Unfortunately I could not recall from memory the exact number I tried to obtain from HRB (again, I tried to verify it but the emails were removed). My efforts at this via your site were commingled in my memory with similar efforts I made during the months before my last trip via AWeb, Army of Brides, Globaladies. At these agencies, I batted about .500; about half the time I was able to obtain a valid postal address and/or telephone number (AoB allows the exchange of phone #s). The other efforts were responded to with excuses, false addresses or non-operational phone numbers.

As I mentioned in one of my prior posts to this thread, I made the choice to give up after the efforts I made at HRB to obtain addresses, and I specifically conceded that a man could very well be successful "if your (sp.) willing to stick it out long enough"

Regardless of this (the address issue), Jim, had you contacted me and expressed your concerns, I would have gladly investigated the reasons behind these two ladies' hesitance to provide their actual postal address.[/size]

I have no doubt that you would, Dave. Had I been motivated to continue using your agency I certainly would have. But given my skepticism, based on my poor prior experience with other 'similar' agencies, and the fact that (as you clearly state) you wish to manage all facets of the process - from first letter through K-1 - I decided that to continue would likely prove a very poor use of my time.

When I have attempted to communicate with ladies through agencies like AWeb, AoB, etc., since the time I understood the risks of such, I always considered these sources purely as backup, as supplements to other, direct methods. 

Lastly, Jim you feel that our refund policy is no more than a PR effort.  

[/size][/quote][/size][/size][/size]I have no "issue" with this, just expressing my thoughts about it. Again, I commend your efforts in this area. 
  

Folks, here's the bottom line, if you don't like the fact that our service implements rules… there are obviously myriads of other services available to you.

[/size][/color][/quote]

[/size]My sentiments exactly.