Married RW: What do you miss in your new country?

[Eduard]

It's funny you mention that. I recently had a conversation with a RW about friends. She asked if I have a lot of friends. I amswered with "yes I have a lot of friends, some good friends and a few close friends". She could not grasp that concept. I explained to her that each is on different levels of conversation and trust. She couldn't grasp that either. She has her family and a handful of friends. To her family and friends can be trusted to the umpth degree. There is no inbetween. That makes sense and I understand it but, I still found it a bit humorous.

yes it's a cultural difference that we (Russians) learn about and adjust to when moving to the US

[Eduard]

Bottom line: a motivated student can learn algebra in a barn.   

I agree with what you wrote. The only thing is that sometimes a student NEEDS TO BE MOTIVATED. And Russian teacher used to be very "motivating" when I went to school at least. My English teacher really used to put a fear of god into us if we came to class without completing all the homework and ready to answer any question in regard to it.
Here in the US they would probably fire her, but it was common in Russia. But the results were that when I hooked up with my Midwestern American ex-wife (I was 20 and she was 18) She would ask me how to spell this word or that word which I found pretty funny at the time.

[WmGO]

But the results were that when I hooked up with my Midwestern American ex-wife (I was 20 and she was 18) She would ask me how to spell this word or that word which I found pretty funny at the time.

That is because, for her, it was more important to be "cool" and "popular"
than to be smart and intelligent. Therein lies the problem in America vis a vis
education. Of course, in college, it is all about PARTYING for many students, some on the 7 year plan to just obtain a 4 year degree.

Personally, I always thought it was possible to be both cool and popular and also
smart and intelligent AND be the PARTY KING all at the same time! 

WmGOhighschoolandcollegepartyking/
foundingmembertapakegtodaychapterofgammadeltaiota

[SANDRO43]

In the U.S. beginning in the late 1950s and continuing forward, the cultural mentality has become that school (especially middle and high school) is about having fun, entertainment, socializing and being "cool".

WmGO, I think your assessment may not be totally accurate, time-wise (were you at school in the late 1950s as I was, albeit not in the USA ?).

IMO, the major contributing factor was the 'cultural revolution' of the late 1960s (hippies, flower people, etc. etc.) against authoritarianism, among other things. As often happens with revolutions, there are good reasons for starting them, but often they go way beyond their initially-stated aims (e.g. France, Russia, etc.) to opposite extremes.

The dreaded weapon of our teachers was the 'matita rossa e blu' they used to correct our essays: one blue mark for a serious mistake (e.g. in spelling), or more than 3 red marks for smaller mistakes, meant failure to pass, so there was really no strategic alternative to studying one's lessons thoroughly. Later on in the 1970s, students in our state universities tried to introduce the concept of 'group exams' as being 'socially fairer', and succeeded for a limited time. Nowadays, some parents are even going to trial to have their children's bad marks reversed by judicial decision .

In my time there were many pitiful cases of teachers whose only concern was collecting their low monthly paycheck with the least possible effort expended and enduring their job until pension time (and whom we were forced to obey and show respect to), but the subsequent approach has probably been more harmful to education than beneficial.

[vwrw]

One can have memorized a lot of knowledge and still be an idiot. That is why I think having a good education is not equal to having a lot of knowledge. Having a good education is equal to having well- developed comprehension and analysis skills, ability to distinguish what is effect and what is cause, ability to draw right conclusions.


Some of you seem to think the FSU education system is very good and superior to other places.    If it is true, then it would be logical to assume that well educated people would be able to make the good decisions about the present and the future of themselves and their country and about the people who they chose to lead their country.   

However, we can not say that the FSU is the best place to live.   Looking at the financial state of many citizens of FSU countries one could hardly believe that it is a country of educated people.  To me it looks more like countries of idiots who have a lot of memorized knowledge.

[Eduard]

One can have memorized a lot of knowledge and still be an idiot. That is why I think having a good education is not equal to having a lot of knowledge. Having a good education is equal to having well- developed comprehension and analysis skills, ability to distinguish what is effect and what is cause, ability to draw right conclusions.


Some of you seem to think the FSU education system is very good and superior to other places.    If it is true, then it would be logical to assume that well educated people would be able to make the good decisions about the present and the future of themselves and their country and about the people who they chose to lead their country.   

However, we can not say that the FSU is the best place to live.   Looking at the financial state of many citizens of FSU countries one could hardly believe that it is a country of educated people.  To me it looks more like countries of idiots who have a lot of memorized knowledge.

I totally disagree with your assessment. I find that people who were educated in Russia have deeper knowledge of subjects and have better ability to think "outside the box". Historically FSU loses a lot of it's great minds to the West because they find better opportunities there and are shown a lot more appreciation. I think that what you are referring to is more of a cultural, historical and civilizational deficiency rather than educational.

[SANDRO43]

That is why I think having a good education is not equal to having a lot of knowledge. Having a good education is equal to having well-developed comprehension and analysis skills, ability to distinguish what is effect and what is cause, ability to draw right conclusions.

Yes, but you cannot have one without the other, i.e. something to 'exercise' your comprehension and analysis on .

In a way, it's like learning a sport or how to play an instrument: before you can 'fly' on the ice or a keyboard, you have to devote a lot of time to boring and apparently mindless exercises, and get sore buttocks/fingers in the process .

[Eduard]

Yes, but you cannot have one without the other, i.e. something to 'exercise' your comprehension and analysis on .

In a way, it's like learning a sport or how to play an instrument: before you can 'fly' on the ice or a keyboard, you have to devote a lot of time to boring and apparently mindless exercises, and get sore buttocks/fingers in the process .

Sandro, you both have a point, but there are exceptions. There have been people in history who did not recieve formal education but achieved a lot, as there were musicians without classical training who were brilliant (particularly in Jazz). There is such a thing as "gift" "natural ability" "genius" that sometimes can blossom in a person without much effort or formal education. I have worked with singers who never had a lesson in their life but when they start singing you get goose bumps all over, while others who took lessons for years, did all the scales and exercises yet they sound average...no goose bumps there!

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, you both have a point, but there are exceptions. There have been people in history who did not recieve formal education but achieved a lot, as there were musicians without classical training who were brilliant (particularly in Jazz). There is such a thing as "gift" "natural ability" "genius" that sometimes can blossom in a person without much effort or formal education. I have worked with singers who never had a lesson in their life but when they start singing you get goose bumps all over, while others who took lessons for years, did all the scales and exercises yet they sound average...no goose bumps there!

Agreed, and there are even a few schools for the 'gifted, child geniuses, etc.' However, what we are discussing here is general education for the masses (compulsory up to a certain age), not a situation applying to a minority of cases, i.e. your 'exceptions'.

As for jazz, I know very well that the majority of black players, particularly between the two World Wars, were musically illiterate. So was the late Luciano Pavarotti, incidentally, while Domingo, Carreras, Bocelli are not .

[Blues Fairy]

Some of you seem to think the FSU education system is very good and superior to other places.  If it is true, then it would be logical to assume that well educated people would be able to make the good decisions about the present and the future of themselves and their country and about the people who they chose to lead their country.  However, we can not say that the FSU is the best place to live.   Looking at the financial state of many citizens of FSU countries one could hardly believe that it is a country of educated people.

VWRW, I agree than Russian education system is (or was?) more focused on making kids memorize rather that analyse things.  However, an ability to analyse or argue is of no value without the ability to leverage factual evidence, which can only be achieved by extensive reading and memory training. 

As for making informed decisions on whom to elect to run the country, I believe it is evident that the Soviet system was specifically designed in the 1930s to prevent well-educated and intelligent people from running the country.   This series of poor decisions of a small bunch of uneducated people had serious impact on the choices and mentality of the rest of the population for decades to come.  I'm sure you'll agree that the quality of education system had little to do with the political life of the country. 

Hopefully, contrary to its deep-rooted mentality, Russia will someday turn into a democratic country and stay nice and stable like the rest of the civilized world, where truly educated and politically active people are but a small portion of society.  But what does it matter when the right system is in place. 

[Gator]

Regarding education, I have seen the sour puss, unmotivated teachers in Russia.  Dreadful. 

A child learns more in general and in particular when learning is fun, a joy.  Learning is not the same as memorizing.

[BillyB]

Some of you seem to think the FSU education system is very good and superior to other places.    If it is true, then it would be logical to assume that well educated people would be able to make the good decisions about the present and the future of themselves and their country and about the people who they chose to lead their country. 

I've had many experiences with FSU children and I have to say they are more educated/advanced on a variety of subjects on average than the average American child in grades k-12. Unfortunately in the FSU they have less opportunities to put their education to good use. Higher education is where America passes the FSU. We don't need everyone in America to have higher education though. Somebody has to flip those 99 cent hamburgers.

No matter how educated the people in Russia are, I believe they have little choice when it comes to voting for a President and get some of their education from a government controlled media. 

[Eduard]

Hopefully, contrary to its deep-rooted mentality, Russia will someday turn into a democratic country and stay nice and stable like the rest of the civilized world...

Up to about a year ago I was also hopeful...but it seems that it's back to business as "normal" in Russia. It has been trying to catch up to western civilization for centuries now, but it seems that only a very tiny minority benefits from any progress and the rest of the country stays hopeless and...drunk

[BC]

Regarding education, I have seen the sour puss, unmotivated teachers in Russia.  Dreadful. 

A child learns more in general and in particular when learning is fun, a joy.  Learning is not the same as memorizing.

I have seen unmotivated teachers in many countries.  Worst was in Germany.  Visited RU school our daughter frequented. Was only for a few hours but overall left a good impression.  This was in 2002. 

I like the emphasis on basic skills math, reading, writing, handwriting.  More 'innovative' learning techniques in the west left me lacking in some of these skills.

[I/O]

but it seems that it's back to business as "normal" in Russia. It has been trying to catch up to western civilization for centuries now, but it seems that only a very tiny minority benefits from any progress

For "centuries", Russia has been a country of vast wealth, which is tightly held in the hands of a few people, fiercely protected by a corrupt political system, which is inturn propped up by those few wealthy people, whilst distribution to the wider population is limited to little or almost nothing.

Some relaxing of travel and communications has allowed a segment of middle class to emerge as they have had access to other ideas and commerce etc, but by and large not much has changed for several hundred years other than the names at the top of the tree, regardless of how the political system is structured at the time.

I don't recall the name, but it was a prominent Russian who stated the two major problems with Russia were/are roads and fools. Reading some history and making my own observations over recent years, Russia appears to me to be a classic example of "The more things change, the more they stay the same". I don't agree with the guy who spoke of "Roads and Fools", although he may be correct in part. IMO the number one problem Russia faces now and in the future is language. Until the Russian education system gets serious (I believe it is currently not serious) about teaching international language/s Russians will always remain behind the eight ball. To make money (Which the individual Russian needs to do) one needs to be able to deal with others who have money, to do that one needs to be able to communicate with another. By only speaking Russian, one is severely limited.

As for basic education generally (skill sets), up to mid university stage, IMO the Russians do it better,  but as pointed out up thread, there ain't much point if there is nowhere to articulate that education (for a decent return) and THAT is the basic problem in Russia, has been, is, and will be for time to come I suspect.

I/O 

[Kuna]

To bring this thread back On Topic...

WE FOUND GOOD BREAD!!!

and SALTY FISH imported from Vladovoskok!!!

Someone is VERY happy - and that makes me happy. 

I think we have most things covered since we discovered Ukraine Kvas a few weeks ago... and with todays little victory I think we're doing just fine!   

[Gator]

Kuna wrote,

and SALTY FISH imported from Vladovoskok!!!

Russia has many contradictions, yet watching a beautiful woman dine on salty fish is near the top of the list.  I recall the contrast of pretty Dutch women leaning over a barrel and downing pickled eels with their blond hair falling across their faces.  No comparison because eel are tasty.

My Moscow woman informed me that it was important to drink beer with salty fish, so I got a six-pack of Staropromen while she selected the fish.  She was correct.  The fish was so abominable that I gulped a half bottle with each bite.  Five beers later most of my fish still remained uneaten. With no more beer, I stopped.

Kuna, there is no need to buy imported salty fish.  Another source is to go to the Vietnamese community and ask them for the fermented fish left over from making nuoc mam sauce.

[WmGO]

WmGO, I think your assessment may not be totally accurate, time-wise (were you at school in the late 1950s as I was, albeit not in the USA ?).

IMO, the major contributing factor was the 'cultural revolution' of the late 1960s (hippies, flower people, etc. etc.) against authoritarianism, among other things. .

Sandro, late 1960s, yes, was an *explosion* of hippie culture that, yes, was part of the cultural revolution in America. But most historians would say that that revolution began in the early 1960s and had thought/idea/provacative message roots going back into the 1950s.

Also, IMO, the hippie culture was less about being against "authoritariansim" as America has never been an "authoritarian" society for the most part, but rather a movement against the Viet Nam war and rebellion against society  in general - a form of disestablishmentarianism/anitestablismentarianism (sic).

Yes, I was not in being at the time of the 1950s.

Were you one of those bong hitting hippies from the 1960s?   

Some of you seem to think the FSU education system is very good and superior to other places.    If it is true, then it would be logical to assume that well educated people would be able to make the good decisions about the present and the future of themselves and their country and about the people who they chose to lead their country.  

However, we can not say that the FSU is the best place to live.   Looking at the financial state of many citizens of FSU countries one could hardly believe that it is a country of educated people.  To me it looks more like countries of idiots who have a lot of memorized knowledge.

VWRW, I hear what you are saying, but those last two comments are overly harsh IMO. IMO, the East Slav Russians and Ukrainians, as an ethnic group, are very intelligent. The problem is *how* they apply their intelligence.

IMO, the prime problem with FSU is moral and ethical. We can apply our education and intelligence in a good and ethical and moral way that benefits ourselves *and* our fellow man simultaneously, or do the opposite. Then, yes, there are the puzzling paradoxes and mysteries about the East Slav soul that make things difficult to understand, but if there is just one major thing for Russia and Ukraine to work on that will best improve the lot of themselves and their countrymen it is in the are of ethics and morality (which includes a good, honest work ethic).

It is interesting that the best computer hackers in the world are East Slavs, as are some of the greatest scientists and inventors and philosophers and musicians.

[SANDRO43]

Also, IMO, the hippie culture was less about being against "authoritariansim" as America has never been an "authoritarian" society for the most part, but rather a movement against the Viet Nam war and rebellion against society  in general - a form of disestablishmentarianism/anTIestablismentarianism (sic).

A rose by any other name ... 

Yes, I was not in being at the time of the 1950s. Were you one of those bong hitting hippies from the 1960s? 

Had no time for that sort of nonsense, I graduated from my Technical Institute for Industrial Chemistry in the fall of 1962 and immediately started working as a research chemist, got engaged in 1964 and married in 1969, so my plate was rather full in the 1960s    .

[Photo Guy]

I know nothing of the education system in the FSU,
but I agree with Sandro about the negative effect of the
social revolution on education in the USA.

Contrasting my experience with my nephews' experiences.

I was expected to attain a level of achievement when I
was in school. A high level. But today, there seems to
be an emphasis on 'trying' rather than achieving.
Negative reenforcement has become a thing of the past.
Students are no longer 'pushed' to learn.
Many schools have done away with the honoring of
a 'valedictorian'. So excellence is less honored.

In society in general, we see (in the media) that excellence
in the world of sports is held up as a great achievement,
but rarely do we see the honoring of intellectual or
humanitarian achievements. I don't know if it's true,
but I've heard reports that in poor urban areas
there is a stigma against students who are 'brainy'
achievers. It isn't cool to be a good student.

The current 'big achievements' in the USA are basically
wealth(however attained), beauty, and athleticism.

Thankfully, there are still some students who naturally
have a gift for thinking for themselves...

[Kuna]

Kuna wrote,
Russia has many contradictions, yet watching a beautiful woman dine on salty fish is near the top of the list.  I recall the contrast of pretty Dutch women leaning over a barrel and downing pickled eels with their blond hair falling across their faces.  No comparison because eel are tasty.

My Moscow woman informed me that it was important to drink beer with salty fish, so I got a six-pack of Staropromen while she selected the fish.  She was correct.  The fish was so abominable that I gulped a half bottle with each bite.  Five beers later most of my fish still remained uneaten. With no more beer, I stopped.

Gator I know what you mean.... 

We left the Russian shop and I was concentrating on weaving through some Saturday morning traffic when I detected that unmistakable smell... 

As I looked to my left and she was sitting there with a tissue spread on her lap pulling skin off the fish.  She noticed me looking and said, "I should be drinking beer but I'm pregnant so it's OK to eat like this". 

I didn't say anything but I was thinking, "It's OK to eat like that if the car doesn't end up smelling like this the whole time".

I enjoy it too (good excuse to drink beer) but it's a little disconcerting driving along with my wife feeding me salty fish like other wives might offer a mint or a sweet to their husbands on a road trip.

The BIG bonus was the bread...  and I have to admit the bread IS GOOD!

[myrddin]

Many schools have done away with the honoring of
a 'valedictorian'. So excellence is less honored.

I don't know if it's true,
but I've heard reports that in poor urban areas
there is a stigma against students who are 'brainy'
achievers. It isn't cool to be a good student.

   But I have to say: I don't know about poor urban areas.  It was definitely true of my school in a middle class suburb (where I actually was valedictorian).

And while I'm off topic (and in the wrong section  ):

Which is a better excuse for not eating salty fish?
1) one really, really hates seafood
or 2) one is allergic to seafood?

[Photo Guy]

Sir, I am honored to meet a valedictorian! 

If you must lie, mention that you are allergic to
seafood, and do not smile. Say it with as much
faked serious humility as possible.    :noidea:

[SANDRO43]

I know nothing of the education system in the FSU, but I agree with Sandro about the negative effect of the social revolution on education in the USA.

The effect spread out to European countries, too, after a while.

I'm not at all a supporter of rote learning. In the early 1970s I stumbled upon a book, "Il paese sbagliato" (The Wrong Village), written by an Italian elementary school teacher in a small Northern Italian provincial town on the banks of the river Po. He was a fervent adherent of what was then called the 'New Pedagogical Method', had his class benches arranged in a circle rather than in the traditional orderly rows, and his teaching method was based on involving his pupils in the process of learning. He initiated a class project on drawing the village by pupil teams, using the strong, yellowish butcher's paper donated by a pupil's parent. Eventually, the teams hung their artifacts on the classroom walls and were admiring their handiwork, when suddenly one remarked: 'The village is all wrong !' What had happened was that each team had drawn their allotted village part independently, and therefore scale and proportions were totally haphazard. The teacher then took the opportunity to explain these concepts, and suggested that the project should be restarted, using strings to measure out building widths and thumbs to guess their perspective height.

This approach is not really new, it echoes Socrates's maieutics where the teacher strives to have his pupil arrive personally at conclusions through shrewd questioning. You may remember a similar method used by Professor John Keating (Robin Williams) in the Dead Poets Society (1989).

Now, how many of your teachers can you recall having a similarly contagious enthusiasm about their educational mission and using similar, non-traditional teaching methods ? As far as I'm concerned, the fingers of one hand are more than sufficient to cover some 20 years of my school time in various environments.

My conclusion is that, failing the above, at least working your a$$ off studying leaves something valuable inside you for a whole lifetime (even though you may not realise and even resent it at the time), while going the easy way leaves VERY little behind .

[myrddin]

If you must lie, mention that you are allergic to
seafood, and do not smile. Say it with as much
faked serious humility as possible.    :noidea:

For the record, it is not actually a lie, though it may or may not be on my official medical record of allergies.  Of the few times I've eaten seafood, I've gotten sick half. 

And I don't drink beer! 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled diversion.  (See Dead Poets Society. If you've already seen it, see it again.)