PreNups, Trusts, Offshore Accounts & Protecting yourself

[Shadow]

Hello BC:  In clothes, jewlery, etc.

        Warren

And you will not give any of those next time ?

[TigerPaws]

Me thinks he learned his lesson :noidea:

[Warren]

Hello Tiger:  You betcha!  I was totally infatuated with her and under her "spell". 

 

[Shadow]

Which means you will make the next woman suffer because of yur mistakes. :huh:

If you have assets you need to protect, an enforceable pre-nup is not a bad thing. But you should not spend nothing because last time you spent too much. Spend what you want to within the limits of what you can afford. Just never expect love in return for spending money.

[TigerPaws]

 Hopefully Warren will know enough to be generous without being extravert, some of this has been covered in the thread http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/forum4/1197.html "Show me the Money" which is a great place to start. While I agree most men should seriously consider a prenup I also highly suggest he receive quality legal counsel before his lady arrives as every state in America is different as to how they deal with this issue.

[Warren]

Hello Guys:  If the FSU lady balks at a marriage agreement, just tell her that the State Govenment requires it.  You can have an attorney prepare a general form and then you can add or delete what you want.   But, as I have read, the $50k up front gift with $50k per year is a "soothing" approach.  I will certainly try this the next time around.

       Warren

[TigerPaws]

[size="4"][color="blue"]Warren,

 I am sorry I have NO idea what you are talking about above.[/color]
[/size]

[Warren]

Tiger:  In all cases, I was referring to the prenup agreement. The prenup can work both ways, especially if the WM dies.  There needs to be clauses in there to cover that possibility. The prenup can be the first of a chain of documents including the trusts, etc.

W.

[TigerPaws]

[size="4"][color="blue"]Warren,

 Agreed, as I have said all through this thread a man need to have quality legal counsel throughout this process.[/color]
[/size]

[MandM]

 If the FSU lady balks at a marriage agreement, just tell her that the State Govenment requires it. 

 - nice way to start marriage! If this doesn't work either, why don't you just force her to sign it?

[TigerPaws]

MandM,

 I am sorry but if a lady does not want to sign a marrage contract then it is most likely because the man has not done a good job of explaning what it is and providing for her to fully understand what the contract means. Of course if the man has done everything possible to be fair and help the lady understand what he is asking her to do and she still says no, then it is time for the man to move on.

 While some people may not understand the need for such things, just imagine that you have a business worth say several million dollars. Under some (American) state laws the lady could have a claim on that business should the marrage fail and the man could loose everything, This is a very complex subject which has to be handled with great care and understanding, there are no easy answers.

[jb]

If the FSU lady balks at a marriage agreement, just tell her that the State Govenment requires it.

This would come under the heading of "duress".  Any 2nd year law student would defeat any pre-nup signed because of such a lie.

Pre-nups have been discussed to death around here, and clearly people still do not understand the nature of such an agreement when put together with a non-native English speaker.  My lawyer friends tell me that if you want a half-way decent chance of making a pre-nuptual agreement stand up in court you will have to hire an attorney for her, (preferably a Russian/English bi-lingual atty, if you can find one).   Her lawyer should also acquire outside translators (in order for there to be no possibility of collusion) so that the pre-nup can be presented to her in her native language, no matter how good her own English skills may be, and all aspects of the transaction should be videotaped in her lawyer's office in both languages.  Sworn depositions should be taken from the translators showing they have no affiliations to you, her, or her lawyer.   Failure to dot one "i", or cross one "t", and it's all for naught.

Even doing everything right, all she has to later say is; "I didn't think he would marry me if I didn't sign", and you have duress, she was under the threat of being sent back to the evil empire if she didn't sign on the dotted line.  Depending on how big are your assets, and the mood of the divorce court, it still stands a better than 75% chance of being thrown out. 

IMHO, pre-nuptual contracts are a terrible way to start a marriage. 

[MandM]

Tiger,

I understand that one has to protect himself if he's got a lot to lose. As you said these issues should be communicated between the partners. What I was trying to say was that tricking one's wife into signing the pre-nup under the false pretences is not very honest, and therefore, not a good way to start a marriage.

Edit: I was typing my message at the same time as jb.

[MandM]

IMHO, pre-nuptual contracts are a terrible way to start a marriage. 

jb, though I agree with you, I think pre-nups are necessary for 'Internet' marriages. How many of these guys get married after one week together, without even getting to know their wives properly? They need to cover their a**!

[TigerPaws]

MandM,

 I agree tricking someone is wrong.

 As for not being a good way to start out a relationship, that is up to each person to decide, in my case it had no effect on the relationship but then again such agreements have been the norm in my family for generations.

[jb]

Covering one's backside is one thing, to do so with a lie will cause greater grief in the long run.   How long do you think it will take after the bride settles in to figure out she was lied to and duped into signing a document that was probably not drawn up with her best interests in mind.  If she's like most of the RWs I know, about 63 nanoseconds. 

BTW, a nanosecond used to be defined by how long it takes for the traffic light to turn green and the car behind you honks his horn.  It is now defined as the length of time it takes a Russian wife to spot a lie from her stupid husband.

[KenC]

There is always a chance that a prenupt will be over turned by a judge even if both parties are native English speakers.  At the very least, a judge could interpret the terms differently than the orignator intended.  In the case of a RW, I would think that they have an almost automatic challange due to the duress issue that jb pointed out.  Any woman (or man) can challange a prenuptual agreement in advent of a divorce with basis or not.  Once the document is challanged, the decision is in the hands of someone else (the judge) other than the original two parties.  Well, really, anything can happen from that point.  There has never been a "bullit proof" prenuptual agreement written.  That being said, I still would recommend a prenupt for men (or women) of substancial finanical standing have one in place before marrying.

There have been some strange turn of events involving prenupts.  Jessica Simpson insisted on a prenupt when she married Nick Lahey.  At the time of their marriage, Nick's career was riding high as he was a member of a popular "boy band" and she was a relative unknown.  Needless to say, his career tanked and her's went through the roof.  Jessica's insistance on a prenupt will cost her a couple of hundred million dollars now.  Only proving that prenupts don't always work out the way they were intended.

KenC

[Warren]

Mand M:  It is not duress.  The FSU ladies understand the "heavy hand" of their Governments. They are accustomed to strict rules and regulations. They are not as emancipated as our AW are.  Just my 2 cents.

      Warren

[TigerPaws]

Warren,

 What you suggest is still the wrong approach, there are better ways which are fair, reasonable and prudent.

[jb]

I see that Warren is still not listening.  I'm writing very slowly  and gently so you will understand.  Your ideas won't work, period.

And I should have explained the need for more than one outside  translator when drawing up a legal instrument such as a pre-nuptual  contract, or any contract for that matter, as in your US company  decides to do business with a Russian firm, the process is the  same.  In a typical case, the original document is prepared by  your lawyer, per your wishes, then handed to the first translator who  translates it into a Russian version, the Russian version is then  handed to a second translator, isolated in another room, who puts it  back into English.  Then the two lawyers, yours and her's, compare  the two documents, the two English versions must exactly match, word  for word.  If there are any errors between the two English  versions they will try it again.  If the two translators cannot  agree, then the process must be repeated, even if it means they have to  get new translators, over and over until an exact mach is  achieved.  After the English/Russian/English  version is  perfect, then her lawyer will fully explain it to your fiancee.   The whole process must be completely transparent and on the up and up,  one little lie or half truth and your pre-nup is dead meat.  Plus,  I doubt any two attorneys working side by side would dare put their law  licenses in jeopardy by trying to pull a fast one over on an innocent  little RW.

Getting a pre-nup that will stand up in court on it's own is not a  simple process, and is probably more trouble than it's worth for the  man of average means.  Expect a huge legal bill to get the  document finalized. 

[Warren]

jb:  I see that you are a lawyer.  I have known about your process of 2 attorneys, etc. I am talking about not using an attorney.  One can draw up one's own prenup if one puts correct incentives in it, e.g $50k up front and $50k per year, etc.  I agree a "white lie" may come back to bite you.

        Warren

[jb]

Warren,

No I'm not a lawyer, if you'd read my post up thread you would have taken note that I said, "my lawyer friends tell me...etc.,"

I am certainly not giving you legal advice here, but I do have extensive experience with contractual agreements between Americans and Russians, and a pre-nuptual is nothing but a contract between prospective spouses.  One American, and the other Russian.

If you decide to write your own pre-nuptual agreement you might as well go ahead and put it all down on toilet paper, because that's all it will be good for when push comes to shove over any assets you are trying to protect.  Her divorce lawyer will have a field day with you.

What was that old lawyer saying?  As judges often advise, "Only a fool has himself for a client."

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"] As to the cost of a quality prenuptial agreement, this is going to vary widely  depending on your wants, needs and finical situation, figure on a minimum of 5  grand for something relatively simple, the bill can easily run 15 grand and more  as the complexity increases. You will not find any boiler plate fill in the  forms for a prenuptial agreement, each is tailored to your situation, needs and  desires for various levels of protection and what you want stipulated in the  agreement. All of this takes time and as with any attorney his (their) time is  your money, while the average Joe may not need such an agreement for those who  do or feel they do seek out a law firm which handles such agreements, they are  few and far between but they know how to write an agreement which will be fair  and balanced for the area you live.[/size][/color]

[Warren]

Jb:  You sure have been "brain washed" by your attorney friends.  I, too, have atty. friends. Tiger is right that it might cost only $5-15k depending on your needs. One can certainly draw up your own prenup and have it checked over by your attorney. Certainly have it translated and understood.  There may be many out there who cannot afford the $5k.

       Warren

[Admin]

Folks,

My sense of this topic is as follows:

1) The issue or Pre-Nups is one of those which I classify as a 'lightning rod' subject. There have been numerous threads/topics started on this over the years, and most either devolve into a flamefest, or they peter out with no agreement. It seems to more romantic types are on one side of the argument - with the more logical types on the other. While oversimplified, I would guess that we need to accept that this is a topic about which REASONABLE people can, and will, disagree.

It also probably needs to be split out from the other elements of this topic.

2) The other topical elements of this thread are a bit risky. Offshore accounts, as I understand them, are often targeted by authorities as illegal tax shelters. While I understand that some have had good experience with them - it has been my experience that there is little, if any, quality information available on the internet - probably because the authorities are so interested in the subject. In other words, I suspect you will not get much of value on this topic here - other than, if you are so inclined, it is something for you to consider and explore.

Having said that - this topic has meandered for quite some time now - and seems to be circling back on itself.

Is it time to consider NEW topics which are more focused than this one - if you feel the need to persist in this debate?

Just a suggestion.

- Dan