PreNups, Trusts, Offshore Accounts & Protecting yourself

[KenC]

Jb:  You sure have been "brain washed" by your attorney friends.  I, too, have atty. friends. Tiger is right that it might cost only $5-15k depending on your needs. One can certainly draw up your own prenup and have it checked over by your attorney. Certainly have it translated and understood.  There may be many out there who cannot afford the $5k.

       Warren

If that is indeed the case, then there is no need for a prenupt.

KenC

[BC]

IMHO, pre-nuptual contracts are a terrible way to start a marriage. 

jb, though I agree with you, I think pre-nups are necessary for 'Internet' marriages. How many of these guys get married after one week together, without even getting to know their wives properly? They need to cover their a**!
[/quote]
MandM

I am totally against someone using prenups as an insurance policy for a couple that should be dating instead of walking up the aisle. Prenups are just not intended for this purpose and thus will fail most challenges in court.

The only condition I think that could be valuable (and maybe enforceable imho) in a prenup is to agree upon which jurisdiction is to be used should the couple decide to get divorced in the future. All other conditions are quite mute due to their ambiguous nature.  Unless you want to give more than the law allows prenups need not contain more than this one basic condition.  

If the man (or woman) has enough money to justify a prenup his/her in-house lawyer will probably be the best source of advice. Certainly someone of such 'fortune' would not seek advice here

IMHO most of those that end up in legal battles are usually faced with settling out of court anyway since legal fees for fighting for or against a prenup could make the whole deal considerably more expensive.  When it comes to law nothing is absolute.

 

 

 

 

[jb]

Excellent post, BC,

I get the feeling that Warren just has no idea of the complexity, or  the cost, of contract law done right.  If his earlier comment  about not having $5K for a lawyer is true then I agree with KenC, he  doesn't need a pre-nup.  He should spend a little of what he has  in making a few more trips across the pond to get to know his RW  sweetie a whole lot better before he pulls the trigger and proposes  marriage.  You are spot on, a pre-nup is not an insurance policy  against a GCG wedded in the heat of the moment.  Besides, at the  end of the 730 days, she will have exhausted his savings and checking  account anyway.

Them's the facts of life.

[TigerPaws]

[color="#0000ff"][size="4"]BC,[/size][/color]   [color="#0000ff"][size="4"] 

 While I disagree on the need for a  prenuptial agreement (IMHO they should be mandatory) I do agree that such an  agreement should be directed towards the possibility of a divorce in the future  not the garbage which is so often reported in the tabloids. As for people on  this forum not seeking advise here, I hope the point is to have men think about  their situation and the possible need for such an agreement, not necessarily  take anything written here as a path they should or should not follow. The  object is to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of such agreements, as Dan  so aptly stated there are two schools of thought to the issue and both are valid  for different people it all depends on the man's situation.[/size][/color]    [color="#0000ff"][size="4"]

 A prenuptial agreement is nothing  more than an insurance policy, if a man does not see the need then he is under  no obligation to use one, if he thinks it might be a good idea then hopefully he  will seek out competent legal counsel to see if something like this is right for  him. [/size][/color]    [color="#0000ff"][size="4"]

 Such an agreement is neither good or  bad, they are merely a tool, a man can use one or not that is his  decision.[/size][/color]
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[KenC]

KenC

 

 

 

[BC]

Ken,

Lawyers do not usually give discounts for arbitration. Yes arbitration may shorten the process a bit and keep happenings out of the daily papers but the time and money invested 'arbitrating' can still be considerable.

 

[TigerPaws]

[color="blue"][size="4"]BC,

 The point of [/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]arbitration is usually to keep the lawyers away or at least to a minimum, some states require the two parties attempt to [/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]arbitrate their differences before going into a court room. It all depends but it is well within the bounds of most prenups to require some form of [/size][/color][color="blue"][size="4"]arbitration of any differences.

 No [/size][/color][color="#0000ff"][size="4"]prenuptial agreement is going to stop a woman from the FSU from filing for a divorce on day 731, what such an agreement can do is minimize the damages a man might face. Additionally if he was smart he would not have allowed the woman to have unlimited access to his assets further minimizing any possible damages until he was sure of her intentions.[/size][/color]
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[tfcrew]

 While I disagree on the need for a  prenuptial agreement (IMHO they should be mandatory) I do agree that such an  agreement should be directed towards the possibility of a divorce in the future  not the garbage which is so often reported in the tabloids. As for people on  this forum not seeking advise here, I hope the point is to have men think about  their situation and the possible need for such an agreement, not necessarily  take anything written here as a path they should or should not follow. The  object is to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of such agreements, as Dan  so aptly stated there are two schools of thought to the issue and both are valid  for different people it all depends on the man's situation.

 A prenuptial agreement is nothing  more than an insurance policy .. if a man does not see the need then he is under  no obligation to use one, if he thinks it might be a good idea then hopefully he  will seek out competent legal counsel to see if something like this is right for  him.     

 Such an agreement is neither good or  bad, they are merely a tool, a man can use one or not that is his  decision.

I thought I would re-boot this thread rather than starting a new one.
I just did a board forum search search on this 'pre-nup agreement' stuff.
 
For the most part [take it from me]...a civil court judge ..once it is established that he is dealing with a foreign bride is most likely to toss  that 'agreement' in the trash can..no matter how well it was drafted...no matter what state you are in.
I got this information from a certified immigration attorney several years ago..

[William3rd]

I strongly disagree with this urban legend type posting.

Prenups are under state law and each state is different in the handling. The rules change yearly as more decisions are made by appellate courts. Usually because some guy is such a cheap #*&#$&* that the trial court or the appeals court has no problem ripping up his little pipedream agreement.

Look to fundamental fairness as that seems to be the trend these days and not by national origin.

[tfcrew]

The rules change yearly as more decisions are made by appellate courts.

Absolutely...and with each year basically favoring the foreign bride.
It all came to mind as I had read recent posting regarding these so called fix all pre-nup agreements.
Viewed as idealism without research  rather than practicality.
One given..there is always some lawyer ready to take your money.
Not caring that all someone has to say is 'He is abusive' and 'I don't know what that was I signed'...End of story.
Below is a google search on the subject.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=laws+protecting+foreign+brides&btnG=Search

[kievstar]

Little advise have any prenup video taped and explained in her native language.  If not, any good attorney could say she had no idea what she was signing.  And your prenup better be fair to her.  If your a rich guy, and your bringing a girl across the ocean from her family.  You better have a fair agreement.  $5,000 - $10,000 you can have a very professional done prenup.  But no written prenup is guaranteed.  Video tape it with her lawyer and yours present.  Yes she needs her own lawyer. and it better not look like everyone is ganging up on her.

[BC]

I'll say it for the thousandth time...

A PRENUPT IS NOT INSURANCE FOR THOSE SEEKING FOREIGN WIVES!!!!!!!

[Son of Clyde]

My opinion has always been if you bring her over here it is a committment.
If you cannot handle the responsibility you should never have started this quest to begin with.
Seems to me a prenup is a safety net when you go into a marriage with doubts. It may work with AM but not so much with RW.

[tfcrew]

Actually..
Prenuptial agreements were invented by lawyers especially for all these rich ass Hollywood types who have no sense of commitment anyway.
They get married every 2 years unchallanged by the courts.

$5,000 - $10,000 you can have a very professional done prenup.
Video tape it with her lawyer and yours present.

Good grief! Have it nationally broadcasted while you're at it.
Were the shoe on the other foot..were you they, would you put up with that?
From one search..

What is Russian women view on pre-nuptial agreements?

I am very interested in getting your opinion on an area I don't think you have discussed. That area is pre-nuptial agreements & Russian ladies. Please don't  get me wrong, I am not looking for something for nothing. I  was reluctant to ask for a pre-nuptial in my first marriage because we loved each other and I thought the marriage would last a lifetime... also did not think she would ever want what I had before marriage. As it turned out after 12.5 years she no longer wanted to work and had become a gold digger despite the fact I was working 90 hrs a week to launch our new business. She financially hurt me during the divorce despite the fact that she had become wealthy. How well would Russian women accept a pre-nuptial agreement? I don't mean an agreement where they get nothing but one where what they get is specified if the marriage ends. I am not referring to child support as not wishing to have kids. Please understand, I am looking for marriage to last a lifetime. I am not abusive & have never run around with other women. I just can't afford to marry someone who dumps me & tries to take 1/2 of my assets and go on to another man. Thank-you for responding. Lin

Elena Petrova:

Dear Lin,
No matter what, a prenuptial agreement will be taken as a distrust. It can affect your relationship in a negative way.  I believe there is a better way of dealing with it: organizing a cover plan for all your assets. Then you do not need any prenuptials. Use a corporation or a trust to protect your assets from an unscrupulous partner. In case your new wife decides "to take you to the cleaners", she will get nothing since all your assets belong to a trust or a corporation. You must seek legal and tax advice before deciding on any cover plan to protect your assets. Prenuptial agreement does not work in all countries in the same way, and in some countries such as USA or Australia the criminal law (for example, domestic violence cases) and other areas of law can make many areas of a pre-nuptial null and void. It is absolutely a must to seek legal advice on protecting your financial well being for all people entering marriage, does not matter if you marry a Russian or an American.

If you really want a prenuptial, find an article on the Internet discussing those issues, especially how a prenuptial can protect a woman, and ask your fiancee what she thinks about the article. When you know her opinion about prenuptials in general, ask if she would like to have one. Do not tell her you will only marry her if she signs a contract; this will ruin the very foundation of your marriage.

http://www.womenrussia.com/letters/index.htm
Were it I and someone told me to sign the pre-nup or the deal is off.,.
I would tell them to take that agreement, the petition, and the ring and go shove it all.

[Son of Clyde]

Prenups sound so 1990's. I think the "me first" generation started in the 1970's or 1980's so what are the 1990's and beyond? Maybe the "only I matter" generation.

[Gator]

A prenup works both ways.  While it can protect a man at divorce, it also can protect a woman at his death.   A prenup can guarantee a younger wife, who is expected to outlive her husband, a specific distribution of property/assets at his death (rather than him bequeathing everything to his grown children).  Such would take precedence over a subsequent will.  A prenup also can specify a man's responsibilities to enable a young wife achieve her goals during marriage.

Writing this down and discussing it gives each party a preview of how the other is thinking.

[Doll]

A prenup also can specify a man's responsibilities to enable a young wife achieve her goals during marriage.

Like what?  Prenups will work "in the event of divorce".

[William3rd]

Absolutely...and with each year basically favoring the foreign bride.

Not really. Prenups have very little to do with foreign brides. It is just that there are cheap-ass yahoos out there are trying to keep all of their postmarital toys to themselves. And whining when it blows up in their faces.

I saw one where the amount of sexual activity was specified and that anything purchased for over $100 was the man's separate property. Some of you characters are really good for a laugh. . . . 

[tfcrew]

.. can guarantee a younger wife, who is expected to outlive her husband, a specific distribution of property/assets at his death...
Writing this down and discussing it gives each party a preview of how the other is thinking.

This is best expressed in a notarized will.
Florida..As here in Texas.. is a pretty solid community property state.

[William3rd]

A pre nup works in one way and one way only. To LIMIT the entitlement of one spouse to something other than SHE (usually) would be entitled to at Law.  I am hearing alot of agency talking points all of a sudden. "I am trying to protect you , darling." HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Small wonder why alot of these foreign bride prenups go in the tank. Guys, listen to yourselves!!! Imagine what a judge hears when you flap your gums- he wonders if you really truly sincerely honestly believe this crap-right before he drops the hammer on you.

Think fundamental fairness. . . at least most of you are beyond "white knight syndrome" these days.

[kievstar]

I posted in another thread that I have no interest in ever doing a prenup.  If your a good man and smart, never need to have one. Only posted details about video tape is that what richer guys where I live are doing.  But it is for American women.

 But when it comes to a foreign bride.  Your asking her to leave her country, leave her family, and than sign a document that you do not believe your marriage will work.  Only a desperate woman would sign this or even marry this guy.

[Doll]

A pre nup works in one way and one way only. To LIMIT the entitlement of one spouse to something other than SHE (usually) would be entitled to at Law.  I am hearing alot of agency talking points all of a sudden. "I am trying to protect you , darling." HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Agree

[William3rd]

 But when it comes to a foreign bride.  Your asking her to leave her country, leave her family, and than sign a document that you do not believe your marriage will work.  Only a desperate woman would sign this or even marry this guy.

very good point. . . . The White Knights somehow think that this all balances out because they have "saved" them and brought them to the promised land. How DARE they ask for what they are entitled to . . . . .

[Son of Clyde]

What about state laws? In my state (maybe others) a divorced spouse is entitled to 50 percent of her ex husband's retirement benefit. It depends on the length of the marriage when they divorce (I think 3 years).

If the couple are willing to reach an agreement with their respective attorneys can they change these rules? What if the wife will be content with 30% of his retirement?

Doesn't it make more sense to talk things over with the attorney's after and not before you marry? Things change, assets change, life changes.

Can't couples leave as friends if they reach an agreement?

[William3rd]

What about state laws? In my state (maybe others) a divorced spouse is entitled to 50 percent of her ex husband's retirement benefit. It depends on the length of the marriage when they divorce (I think 3 years).

If the couple are willing to reach an agreement with their respective attorneys can they change these rules? What if the wife will be content with 30% of his retirement?

Doesn't it make more sense to talk things over with the attorney's after and not before you marry? Things change, assets change, life changes.

Can't couples leave as friends if they reach an agreement?

sure they can. But- do they? not that often.

In CA, the rule on pensions is 1/2 of the benefit that was accrued during the marriage with due regard for what constitutes full entitlement.

Example- 30 years for full pension; married 5 years during the accrual: 5 years divided by 30 gives a percentage, then divide that by 2. this % is wife's share.

But- why should she take less absent a giving in other areas such as cash or property