political wives?

[BC]

Quote from: BC on Today at 19:27:56
I don't know how long she was in the US, or if even she was a citizen as most children born of parents with diplomatic passports do not acquire citizenship.  Maybe her stay / country of birth did leave impressions? 

Does dual citizenship mean that she can't be critical of her country? If anything, I believe it is a much more positive statement that she had dual citizenship yet chose to stay in Russia in spite of the dangers. I would say it makes her that much more of a patriot: even though she had an easy out (dual citizenship), she chose to stay and risk her life to make Russia a better country. If she had simply said "scr*w Russia" and moved to the United States, she would likely be alive today.

Looking a bit closer, born in 58, graduated from Moscow University 80 she probably did not spend much time in the US. 

I do know that I am the product of my parents and acquired many of their values.  I would assume Anna would have also.  Her parents were UN diplomats so surely would have taught her much about the world, even behind closed doors.

She knew well the risks involved in what she was doing.

My post you quoted was a question and not a statement.  Huge difference.

[KenC]

KenC,

I am not trying to difcredit American generousity, honestly. I am trying to provide a different point of view, that's all. I think any amount of aid is always welcome.

Could you answer, who would you consider more generous, a millionaire who gave $100 or a guy on $50 000 a year who gave $ 10?

I can tell you that the benifactor will be 10 times better off with the $100 than the $10!  A hundred dollars is a hundred dollars is a hundred dollars, no matter where it came from and how rich the person is who gave it!  (I really do understand your point, but I also think it is irrelevant)  The answer to your question is they are both generous to volintarily give any amount freely.  I will not stand in judgement as to what is required, because nothng is required/
KenC

[Misha]

She knew well the risks involved in what she was doing.

My post you quoted was a question and not a statement.  Huge difference.

I know. I was adding a few of my questions. Sorry, if it appeared stand-offish.

[BC]

Re Aid
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article698345.ece

I know. I was adding a few of my questions. Sorry, if it appeared stand-offish.

Bez problem! all in good spirit 

[55North]

JC, I'm truly astounded that you aim to settle in the UK. (Did I understand you correctly?).  If you intend to, one day, adopt British citizenship, you will have to sit a citizenship test.  You will have to answer questions about democracy, and freedom of thought, I hope.  How will you manage this?
 
As a young person (boy), I naturally read all the most gruesome war stories available to me, though it didn't become an obsession, and I later confined myself to newspaper reports to be aware of the nature of war.
 
A few months ago I read Anna Politkovskayas book 'A Small Corner of Hell - Dispatches from Chechnya'.  It was quite the most shocking book I have read, for at least 30 years.  I couldn't really get my mind around how a government of a alleged modern developed nation, through its armed forces, could treat its own citizens, especially women, children and the old in such an appalling manner.  I appreciate that the lot of the average Russian soldier is such that they had effectively no choice but to follow orders, kill or be killed if you like, but the details of the inhumanity of the 2nd Chechen War are quite beyond the well-published details of, say, invasion under the Nazis, and even the Japanese in World War 2.  Possibly the only 'war' that was more horrific was that of the 'Killing Fields' of Pol Pot's Cambodia, which was, of course, another civil war.
 
And don't tell me it's lies.  When I go to Russia, I go to the North Caucasus.  And I talk to real people.  When were you last there?

[BC]

55,

war is hell, it brings out the worst in us.  One atrocity or a hundred, it makes little difference.

No army is immune, with or without orders.

[Serebro]

That is purely an attempt at passing responsibility.
It is like saying no Russian benefited themselves under Stailn's rule.

Even a dictator needs lackies in order to maintain power and it was RUSSIANS (amongst others) who decided to occupy that role.

Those RUSSIANS need to be accountable for those actions and accept responsibility for those actions.

Well, I am sorry folks, I haven't read the last 2 pages of your posts as I felt like I had to answer these posts and deccie's one.
There's no any attempt to pass responsibility

In fact Russians inherited Soviet gains and Soviet faults by accepting Soviet debts.
The USSR owed a lot of money to different countries, after the USSR stopped its existance the 14 Republics refused to pay the debts and to have something in common with the Soviet past.
So officially Russia became the heir of the USSR in both positive and negative ways.

In other words Russians have to cope with the negative consequences of the Soviet time but at the same time Russian people can say that this or that thing was made by Russians even if it was made by Ukrainians and people of other nationalities who lived in the USSR as all the achievments of the USSR officially belong to Russia now, too.

This explains why there are so many ex-Soviet countries-republic who are interested in making Russia look bad  making them pay its debts.

As for the deccie's post, deccie, do you really think that Russians didn't suffer during the Stalin's regime but they only benefited from making people of other republics/nationalities suffer?!
My ancestors lived here and I can say that it's not so.

If you take older generation, no, not young people, but old people who are older than 50 for example- and if you ask them if they are angry with Russians or if you ask Russian people who are older than 50 if they are angry with people of other Ex Soviet republics most of them will say no. It may sound strange but people in the 60-ies-80-ies who lived in Stalin's time and suffered a lot will never say bad things about other nationalities as they didn't feel any difference.

For some reason the younger generation who doesn't remember either Stalin or even Hrutshev will tell a lot of things about how they ancestors suffered and how bad russians are.But it's even more surprising to see my 85 yo neighbour- a Kazakh man who likes me and my family and Russians and Tatars and Ukrainians and Bashkirs on the whole very much and can tell a lot of stories from his past and his friendship with Russians and people of other nationalities and bad stories that happened to them and evil remarks of the foreign man who has read a couple of books about the USSR shouting about how  his new gf family sufered because of "these bad Russians".

if we all are so terrible and irresposible why do you all come here

[Eduard]

The first I heard of Britney Spears was from an RW's teenage daughter in 2002. I really didn't have a  

JC, I give you some credit...(but not much).
Politkovskaya's books were published in the West.  I don't believe Putin's Russia have been yet translated into Russian.  She could have lived and worked anywhere she wanted.  She chose Russia I believe because she saw an opportunity to stop or impede the backsliding to the Russia back to the dreaded Soviet times.  Like so many of us on this board, who see great opportunity for Russia to emerge from the dark shadows of history and take her rightful place as a great nation, Politkovskaya was distressed that Russia was moving in reverse with the coming to power of Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.  

Politkovskaya worked for the Новая Газета (New Gazette).  A newspaper financed by Berezovsky and a naturalized American citizen George Soros who grew up in Nazi, then Soviet-dominated Hungary.  Soros, as some may know, is no friend to the Bush administration.  
So yes, her money did come from the West (book sales) which is quite a different matter that to imply that she was a propaganda puppet of America or her views were bought with American dollars.

Her views were hers and her convictions deeply held.  After two previous attempts on her life, she knew she was living on borrowed time but persisted nonetheless.  Who sacrifices their life for money?  You have to survive in order for money to mean anything to you. She was indeed a Russian patriot more so than any of those whose statues still stand in Russian parks.

As to following the money...The prime suspect is an FSB agent.  The execution took place on Putin's birthday.  She was not killed to silence her only.  She was killed to send an unmistakeable message to anyone else who might dare speak the truth about Putin and his gang of chekist thugs. There was no attempt to make it look like a robbery or random violence.  The Makarov pistol was left by her body..as a calling card.  Putin wanted Russia and the world to know you can't mess with him, just as with his killing of Litvinenko and others.  He is, after all, untouchable and in some perverse way the Russian people see him as a macho strong man - despite his 5ft 7in height and specially made heel-lift shoes.


Yes, JC, Politkovskaya did draw some modest income from the west through book sales.  Is that worse than Putin's plundering the treasury of Russia (a skill he learned as a city official in St Petersburg)?
Anna Stepanovna was stronger, smarter and more courageous in defense of her country than Putin could ever dream of being.  Russian women, if they are true women of Russia, should and one day will recognize that and embrace her as a national hero.

JC, it is apparent you are young..perhaps very young.  Most learning about life and the world lies ahead of you.  I think you'll eventually figure things out for yourself.  Opinions should be strongly held but only if they are formed after gather facts and not before.

[Serebro]

bTW, why do you all write bad things about Karl Marks, he was a genius, Russian communists didn't use his work in the right way but the whole work is great.

[Serebro]

The Bottom Line:
Russia is in the hands of KGB. They understand that the Socialist system doesn't work and are not going back to it, yet they are using the same old school Soviet methods of propaganda and dealing with any kind of dissent and opposition political or philosophycal.

Eduard, you sound like the person who migrated to the USA in the 80-ies and lives in Brighton Beach. 

[BC]

I'm impressed.  

As to following the money...The prime suspect is an FSB agent.  The execution took place on Putin's birthday.  She was not killed to silence her only.  She was killed to send an unmistakeable message to anyone else who might dare speak the truth about Putin and his gang of chekist thugs. There was no attempt to make it look like a robbery or random violence.  The Makarov pistol was left by her body..as a calling card.  Putin wanted Russia and the world to know you can't mess with him, just as with his killing of Litvinenko and others.  He is, after all, untouchable and in some perverse way the Russian people see him as a macho strong man - despite his 5ft 7in height and specially made heel-lift shoes.

Ronnie,

More unsubstantiated conjecture.  If anything, Putin would not have the slightest need to make a 'statement' me thinks.  The 'calling cards' look more and more like a setup if anything.

Anyhow carry on but do bring a fresh deck of cards to the table - this deck is worn out.

[Eduard]

Eduard, you sound like the person who migrated to the USA in the 80-ies and lives in Brighton Beach. 

well, this remark shows how "good" your perception is...I actually never lived in Brighton beach (not that there is anything wrong with that!), I live in Florida, that's a different state in case you don't know. I'm going to be nice and not even comment on what you sound like.

[Serebro]

well, this remark shows how "good" your perception is...I actually never lived in Brighton beach (not that there is anything wrong with that!), I live in Florida, that's a different state in case you don't know. I'm going to be nice and not even comment on what you sound like.

oops, and this remaks shows that you have zero sense of humour
I know where you live, honey,
you've bragged many times about how warm it was "at home" in comparison with cold Kazan.Becides I can't see anything bad in living in any particular place.

[Eduard]

oops, and this remaks shows that you have zero sense of humour
I know where you live, honey,
you've bragged many times about how warm it was "at home" in comparison with cold Kazan.Becides I can't see anything bad in living in any particular place.

you percieved that as "bragging"? I thought I was maybe just stating the fact that it wasn't easy to go from +30 to -23 centigrate...do I detect a little jelousy?

[Serebro]

you percieved that as "bragging"? I thought I was maybe just stating the fact that it wasn't easy to go from +30 to -23 centigrate...do I detect a little jelousy?

I am sorry, Eduard, but no .
I have health problems (with my heart) so I can't stand hot climate and from what I know your state is
HOT.

[I/O]

if we all are so terrible and irresposible why do you all come here

I've just been waiting for this sort of line to be trotted out. Sometimes things are too predictable. Where pray tell did anyone say ALL Russians were bad or ALL things Russian were bad? Blind defence of the indefensible causes such comments.

Nobody likes their own country being put under the blowtorch, but, IMO, Russians are the worst I have seen to jump to an emotional defence of the motherland knowing fully they are arguing without solid basis. My wife describes it this way. "As a proud Russian I don't like when people speak badly of Russia. I KNOW what is wrong with Russia, I KNOW more than others what is wrong because I have lived it all my life (other than the last 6 months) and it makes me sad. I react in defense because I am "Red faced" (Ashamed) that my country with all it's natural wealth and human talent hasn't done so much better. My country should be on the top of the list for everything, but it is the bottom of the list which is closer. I love my homeland and it makes me cry when I think of the bad things which happen." Then she poses the question. "Do you not feel ashamed when a foreigner sees something truly bad in Australia"?

Then she repeats the point another way. "Russians react badly because they know very often what is being said is true".

My answer to her question is, "Yes of course. BUT the difference being, I do not try to defend that thing as justified for some abstract reason."

As demonstrated here in this thread, and it is a good case in point for any freshman to take on board, Russians can rarely hold an objective discussion on the shortcomings of Russia. It seems to simply be part of being Russian.

I/O

[Serebro]

I/O, I know my country isn't perfect.
What I can't understand is why all these people start threads like this one over and over again, discussing how bad Russia is, how many problems is has and how terrible life is in Russia.

I live here and I don't find it that terrible.

so I can't understand why can one feel free to come here and insult Russia and its government just because he or his new gf have had problems with making some papers...

it's mean and it's yes... it's insulting.

Nobody likes their own country being put under the blowtorch, but, IMO, Russians are the worst I have seen to jump to an emotional defence of the motherland knowing fully they are arguing without solid basis

of course  some ignorant aussie without having a college degree knows this solid basis better than the person who has lived all his life here.
As for you wife, I am sorry that she had such a miserable life that she had no choice but to marry the guy who has no respect for her country.



weak countries are never hated....this makes me feel better

[catzenmouse]

I hope this doesn't go down that path that has already been trodden and become an insult fest. It would be really nice to see the participants take a step back from the abyss.

FWIW,
 Ken

[Serebro]

I hope this doesn't go down that path that has already been trodden and become an insult fest. It would be really nice to see the participants take a step back from the abyss.

FWIW,
 Ken

I agree, it's nice to have a discussion, but the problem is that any person even the one who has read one book in his life is sure that he can express his opinion and that this opinion is of a great value.

[catzenmouse]

I agree, it's nice to have a discussion, but the problem is that any person even the one who has read one book in his life is sure that he can express his opinion and that this opinion is of a great value.

Damn! Does that mean I actually have to read a book before I can post my opinion? 

[Gator]

BC,

I glanced through this to see who is still being played.  Shocking!  Did a friend bring you some wacky weed to smoke?  You are on one heck of a philosophical trip.  Let me hold up a mirror, please, to your words.

Olof Palme Prize....Amnesty ....UNESCO

Do you seriously implicate them as possible fronts for American political sabotage in Russia?  I find it incredulous and no defence for JC's mentality.  For the Olof Palme Prize to serve that purpose would be very ironical considering Palme was one of the world’s leading opponents against American involvement in Vietnam.  His assassination affected the West, particularly Sweden, and Anna is similarly gunned down two years later.  

Should we now investigate other winners of these awards as possible agents?  

If anything, Putin would not have the slightest need to make a 'statement' me thinks.

Maybe it is a statement of a different kind, yet what he did to Mikhail Khodorkovsky is definitely a statement to any other oligarch who may consider departing from the Putin path.

One atrocity or a hundred, it makes little difference.

I am confused whether you are being an antiwar liberal or rationalizing collateral damage.    My Lai was deplorable, left a permanent stain, and hastened American withdrawal from RVN, yet it would take 10,000 My Lai's to equal Pol Pot.  I have seen mild-mannered VN citizens get pushed around and roughed up, an act I found atrocious, but it is more than a little difference from My Lai.

[Serebro]

Damn! Does that mean I actually have to read a book before I can post my opinion? 

It reminds me of a recent TV program made by Vladimir Pozner about America...in one part of it there was an opinion of an American man who told that americans are taught to express their opinion and they like it and a few moments after that he added that an average american doesn't read a lot.

There was a big discussion of his speech on a Russian forum with the idea like :
What can an average american tell if he doesn't read and doesn't want to know anything exept for what happens in his house and his backyard.

No, catzen, you don't have to read a book to express your opinion, but the more books you read the less ignorant your opinion will look like.

[I/O]

of course  some ignorant aussie without having a college degree knows this solid basis better than the person who has lived all his life here.
As for you wife, I am sorry that she had such a miserable life that she had no choice but to marry the guy who has no respect for her country.

Catz: No need for me to get involved in an insult fest. The above stands well enough alone as an example of 1) No factual basis, 2) Emotional outburst and 3) Deliberate attempt to develop an insult exchange. The poster should have been thrown off the site long ago. Disgusting and immature.

I/O

[Serebro]

Catz: No need for me to get involved in an insult fest. The above stands well enough alone as an example of 1) No factual basis, 2) Emotional outburst and 3) Deliberate attempt to develop an insult exchange. The poster should have been thrown off the site long ago. Disgusting and immature.

I/O

the only person who should be thrown off the site long time ago is you with your  ignorant insults to my country and your ignore statistics proves it.at least 6 members have you on their ignore list and fed up with your "mature" posts.
PS:As I know you have been thrown off many other websites before, too.
I am still impressed how patient Dan is.

[I/O]

PS:As I know you have been thrown off many other websites before, too.

A list of those sites please?

I/O