FSU Realities: How does it Affect East-West Relations

[myrddin]

 Number of posts obviously has no bearing........anyways......

Aw, come on...not even a lil ol' fashion Murr-kin 'social promotion'?  It's not a degree, just a few credit hours...

No? Sheesh, next you'll tell me they don't grade on a curve...    

[dneid]

I believe if you work hard as a family group to succeed and make sure to take care of every single member of your group, you will do just fine in any society- culture -country..

Mischief, if you were not already married, I would be out the door with bloodhounds to track you down and carry you off.  Your words above just left me amazed.  It is wonderful to hear someone echo such an eloquently stated goal.  This is something that I believe the US as lost the focus on.  Society or government can not solve all the problems we have here.  The solution starts around the dinner table.  It takes a dedicated father and mother to instill the values that bring change, that reinforce integrity, that hold truth and honesty and service to others.  I just had to comment on your post.  Thank you!!!

[ScottinCrimea]

I think we all agree that there are both good and bad people in any society.  I think we can also agree that people as a rule gravotate to those with whom they are the most comfortable (generally meaning similar in beliefs, etc).  Having said that, maybe we can look a little deeper and ask ourselves why we are so attracted to women from this "rotten" culture and why do many here keep repeatedly finding the bad women and blaming it on the culture?  I think a little more introspection is required than simply blaming our difficulties on the so called flaws of a particular culture or mentality.

[Gator]

Scott wrote,

why do many here keep repeatedly finding the bad women and blaming it on the culture? 

Many… repeatedly?   Who knows?

How many are cases of bad women deceiving men for money?

How many are men who deceived themselves, thinking they were man enough and simply getting rejected by women thinking otherwise?

If a thorough and honest appraisal were made, I guess most terminate simply because either the man or woman is not perceived as being worthy of a continuing relationship, much like dating in America.  That happened to me several times.  None of the women were bad, nor do I consider myself bad.  And it was not a failure on any one's part.  And it was not due to a flawed culture. 

[KenC]

I think we all agree that there are both good and bad people in any society.  I think we can also agree that people as a rule gravotate to those with whom they are the most comfortable (generally meaning similar in beliefs, etc).  Having said that, maybe we can look a little deeper and ask ourselves why we are so attracted to women from this "rotten" culture and why do many here keep repeatedly finding the bad women and blaming it on the culture?  I think a little more introspection is required than simply blaming our difficulties on the so called flaws of a particular culture or mentality.

Geez Scott,
I don't see where your coming from with this post.  If anything, I was thinking about how many of us found so many good women in such a "rotten" culture.  I do not see anyone blaming the Russan culture for their misfortunes with RW, but I do see a rather balanced and honest inspection of the culture itself.
KenC

[ScottinCrimea]

Gator and KenC,  Now we are getting into the crux of the matter.  Men ripe for deceipt?  Men only deceiving themselves? Just a basic imcompatibility that has nothing to do with culture?  We can examine all we want the flaws in Russian culture and the impact on AM/RW relationships but ultimately it all boils down to one man and one woman and their core values.

[Kuna]

I do not believe the western people are inherently better then people in the FSU. But I do believe western people behave with more ethics, and consideration for others (excluding family) than do people in the FSU.

HITech,

You move in different business circles than I do...

I personally think the difference in "business ethics" between FSU and the west is that the "rip-off" in FSU is much more crude than our "sophisticated" western methods of scamming people and partners.

I could recite DOZENS of examples where I was asked or directed to act unethically, all because of the pressure to return more money to shareholders. I resist such urges because I believe value can be achieved through genuine and sustainable innovation...  but those that can't innovate will lie!

In my consulting activities I'm frequently asked to distort the truth in the name of profit - and the thing that I must convince my clients of is that the lie is a short term remedy for a longer term dysfunction.  Ignore the dysfunction and you'll exacerbate the effects until they cripple you. Do they care about this???  No, not if they are like many in FSU who can only live in the short term.

I'd suggest the corruption in the west is just better disguised or launched on a much larger scale (have a look at many corporate collapses in the west and see how often corruption or unethical behaviour has been the cause).

Right now there is a VERY successful public company in Australia facing certain collapse because of greed...  Who will be hurt?  THOUSANDS of Mum and Dad investors!

I'd argue corruption is everywhere - it's just more visible in FSU because it looks unusual to us.  When we're exposed to so much unethical behaviour here at home that is starts to look "normal" - we're in real trouble!

As for caring for other people... In the west lots of us are good at pretending to do so but as the organiser of a large annual charity event here in my State I can assure you many people don't give a damn about those around them who are suffering. 

It's all sad, but true.

Kuna

[mischief]

In extreme situations like natural disasters, political upheaval, economic collapse, degradation, poverty etc.  people show their true color... vivid example was New Orleans...
One can describes life in FSU as an ongoing extreme situation and if you find an intelligent lady who maintains her dignity, takes pride in what she is doing, still able to see best in people and positive about the country she lives in, has extended family whose wellbeing she contributes toward and good friends she considers family... you got your gem!!

[mischief]

Mischief, if you were not already married, I would be out the door with bloodhounds to track you down and carry you off.  Your words above just left me amazed.  It is wonderful to hear someone echo such an eloquently stated goal.  This is something that I believe the US as lost the focus on.  Society or government can not solve all the problems we have here.  The solution starts around the dinner table.  It takes a dedicated father and mother to instill the values that bring change, that reinforce integrity, that hold truth and honesty and service to others.  I just had to comment on your post.  Thank you!!!

well... not sure how to respond to tracking me down and stuff  :hairraising:...but I do appreciate your nice comment...

[mischief]

We can examine all we want the flaws in Russian culture and the impact on AM/RW relationships but ultimately it all boils down to one man and one woman and their core values.

yep... all I was trying to say...

[I/O]

We can examine all we want the flaws in Russian culture and the impact on AM/RW relationships but ultimately it all boils down to one man and one woman and their core values.

If I am decoding the above correctly, this thread has been totally pointless. :noidea:

I/O

[Lily]

I would like to see more FSUW comment on: how to spot/avoid the disreputable, the insincere, the overly damaged, the prima donna, the retired pro, the sponsor seeker, the uncomproming hard heads, the unadaptable, etc......... How to judge/assess woman for honesty and sincerity, "family values", committment/family centric
mentality-belief structure, etc.

If they want to throw something in that is scandalicious
that would be an added bonus.  
 

  

No doubt, it would be extremely useful to know how to spot the above. An information worth millions. That's why we like to read TR's.

I think any person who have had reasonable experience with people could tell whether a particular person is articulate, polite, assertive, stubborn, etc. Whether she is honest...I don't think I'd have a recipe. Honesty is simple, deceit is complex and even sofisticated.

My guess would be that a sponsor seeker may be easier to spot. Loos at her reaction on your proposal to pay her expenses.  

Overly damaged? depends on what spot of her is damaged. May be repairable.

Prima donnas may eventually be recognized pretty soon by a thing like panache (read Gator   )

The uncomproming hard heads? Read Pike's TR, it is worth more than it appears to be.

Disreputable and retired pros? I am not sure what it means but guess that might be something about promiscuous women. Sorry I don't know a single one.

Unadaptable women would probably belong to the good and sincere ones, but just lack flexibility and willingness to develop and change. This is IMO incurable. I guess if a man heads to deep Russia in the hope to find a traditional non-westernized woman, he may well find one, but the chance is that she may find herself unable to adapt to an unknown world. I know a number of such women, who are great housewives, take care of their homes, consider family and kids are the most important things in their lives. But they all have one common thing - their education is often ordinary, they don't speak languages, no international experience besides eventual fiancee visas, are not well travelled. Of note, I have yet to meet an unadaptable polyglott.

[DKMM]

Actually KenC, you are close IMHO.  The underlying aspects of this thread bring to light more reasons to find someone younger.  I mean before she sets out and tries to live on her own for too long in that society.  Better to not have too many years of conditioning outside of the family environment.

[BC]

Quote from: WmGO on Yesterday at 23:27:51
I would like to see more FSUW comment on: how to spot/avoid the disreputable, the insincere, the overly damaged, the prima donna, the retired pro, the sponsor seeker, the uncomproming hard heads, the unadaptable, etc......... How to judge/assess woman for honesty and sincerity, "family values", committment/family centric
mentality-belief structure, etc.

If they want to throw something in that is scandalicious
that would be an added bonus.  Cheesy
No doubt, it would be extremely useful to know how to spot the above. An information worth millions. That's why we like to read TR's.

I think any person who have had reasonable experience with people could tell whether a particular person is articulate, polite, assertive, stubborn, etc. Whether she is honest...I don't think I'd have a recipe. Honesty is simple, deceit is complex and even sofisticated.

.....

Disreputable and retired pros? I am not sure what it means but guess that might be something about promiscuous women. Sorry I don't know a single one.

.....

.. moreover, how to accomplish this in the usually limited time that men take to be with their woman.

You may learn things about her months and even years down the road.

One could consider using an agency that does some advanced filtering (before you even meet her), medical, psychiatric evaluations etc but I believe such are either rare or above the means of many seekers and even then may not reveal all.

For the majority it's probably a 'make your bed and lie in it' type of deal.  This is probably the greatest difference between dating a RW and dating homegrown.  After a time with a homegrown girl, you will likely interact with friends and family (both yours and hers) that can tip you off to some red or pink flags.  Tools in the west are available to get some 'inside' regarding financial and legal actions.

I just love this one for anyone that missed it:

[Kuna]

Actually KenC, you are close IMHO.  The underlying aspects of this thread bring to light more reasons to find someone younger.  I mean before she sets out and tries to live on her own for too long in that society.  Better to not have too many years of conditioning outside of the family environment.

Are you kidding?

It's better to find someone before they have experienced life (and undergone change) so that you can sweep her off her feet, marry her and watch her change before your eyes???

Mate, that is exactly the wrong idea in my mind!

I can promise you one of my goals was to find someone that had experienced life AND seen a little of the world.  I didn't want a fantasy OR mystery! 

[Gator]

DKMM,

Did you forget a smiley in your statement?

Better to not have too many years of conditioning outside of the family environment.

Kuna is 100% correct.  All women change (they call it growing).  The younger they are the less they know what they want and the higher the possibility that the two of you could grow apart.

[Gator]

Lily,

Good posts about finding a diamond.

Honesty is simple, deceit is complex and even sofisticated.

Good definition. Honesty is not only simple, it is abundant, apparent and sometimes blunt.  One has no doubt about what she said or meant, no confusion as can happen when a woman is evading an issue.  Nevertheless, some people (men and women) are very good liars.  And some are delusional. 

Prima donnas may eventually be recognized pretty soon by a thing like panache (read Gator )

Remember her well.  Prima donnas are dangerous.  They are fun and seductive,  enabling them to manipulate men.  Thus, men may at first easily overlook some things that will eventually become intolerable.  I consider myself very lucky, because we parted after only a year together while it took 3-5 years for her three RM husbands to realize the futility of life with her.  She described them as “bad” men, and maybe so, yet no RM leaves a good woman, at least not three RM.

The uncomproming hard heads? Read Pike's TR

All I recall is Pike’s hard head, his little head that is.

[Gator]

The Prima Donna Unexpectedly Enters Stage Left

Now this is amazing.  I made the post about the Prima Donna at 9:58am.

I checked my email and discovered this email from her at 9:49am.  We broke up almost a year ago, and I have not heard from her since, not once.   She even refused to talk privately with my interpreter.  Typical RW parting.... vaporize into the air.  Then this message out of the blue:

_______, a lot of time has passed, as we have left. I often recollect you - only well. But I think, if you when recollect me, likely badly recollect. I do not search for any occasions for dialogue - I wish to apologize for my behaviour is there was a protection and fear to go to America and probably mistrust to you. I apologize that have caused you a lot of mental anguish, I want that you were happy.

Sweet, and it took a long time for her to compose this considering her basic English skills.  It is unclear whether she just wishes to apologize and move on, or reopen the door.

Her intent does not matter.  I have a woman, a good woman, a woman who differs from the Prima Donna in two fundamental ways:

-  she is completely direct, forthright, open and honest with me. 

-  her inner determination that enabled her to survive with two kids can be difficult at times, yet she always attempts to reconcile our differences productively.

These two qualities have enabled our relationship to solidify as friends and partners, not just as a companion and lover.   What made one woman have these two qualities that are vital to me and our relationship, and the other not? 

Interesting, my fiancee does not satisfy all of Mischief's criteria, while the Prima Donna does:

...an intelligent lady who maintains her dignity, takes pride in what she is doing, still able to see best in people and positive about the country she lives in, has extended family whose wellbeing she contributes toward and good friends she considers family... you got your gem!!

Be careful with the Prima Donnas.  They are fun, a lot of fun, but....it takes a special man to tame their behavior.  I failed. 

[mischief]

I know a number of such women, who are great housewives, take care of their homes, consider family and kids are the most important things in their lives. But they all have one common thing - their education is often ordinary, they don't speak languages, no international experience besides eventual fiancee visas, are not well travelled. Of note, I have yet to meet an unadaptable polyglott.

Lily, good post ... just wanted to point out that there is difference between women who has nothing to do but to take care of their children then your description of these type of ladies is accurate..
and women who have their family as the highest priority no matter how busy and successful they are...
my mom is the brightest example of last group and the source of my deep admiration: holding a Doctor's Degree, being one of the leading researchers in the country, giving reports in most of european countries... she takes a good care of her family and always makes sure she spends quality time with every one of us (there are four of us), no matter how old we are now...

[mischief]

Interesting, my fiancee does not satisfy all of Mischief's criteria, while the Prima Donna does:
Be careful with the Prima Donnas.  They are fun, a lot of fun, but....it takes a special man to tame their behavior.  I failed. 

Gator... I just wrote about the things which matter the most for me and for my husband for that matter since he is stuck with me ...everybody has different criteria... I would think that Prima Donna would not see the best in people but only in herself as well as I doubt that she would take a pride in her job... please ignore my comments, if you don't see any value in them...

[Gator]

Mischief wrote,

please ignore my comments, if you don't see any value in them...

I see value in your comments, and they are always well written.  My point is not that someone has "different criteria."  We all have more criteria because there is so much involved in deciding compatibility. 

The qualities you listed are indeed noble, yet one is not important IMO, and is the subject of this thread.  That is her attitude towards her country, which has largely influenced my own opinion.

She is far from "...positive about the country she lives in"  because she has had exposure to the West, reads about the differences, sees the stark contrast, and is able to understand how Russian life has affected her mentally, physically, and economically.  For sure she sees positive aspects of Russian life, enjoys them and will miss them.  Yet, they dwindle in comparison to the negative aspects of Russia and  to the positive aspects of her future home (which she has seen).  And I understand many married RW living in America feel the same.


Contrary to what you may feel, the Prima Donna (and I should not use that term because it is too judgmental) indeed took pride in her work:  circus performer, European fashion model, radio celebrity and hairdresser. 

Did she see the best in other people?  Perhaps you are correct because she had this mistrust so prevalent among RW (a product of the extreme life and extreme people there?).   Any mistake I made was ...... suffice to say she did not give me the benefit of the doubt.  In contrast my Moscow woman is forgiving (after a tongue lashing).

Lily made a point about adaptability related to language and education.  While the ex-model had exposure to Europe, she was sheltered and pampered, always having a limo (she did not know how to ride the Moscow metro!) and always having an interpreter.   Her formal education was interrupted as a teenager when the limelight found her.

This is a rather personal discussion, reflecting my thinking.   I wish I could have pulled the trigger as quickly as KenC and Jet did.  Instead, I found much confusion and did not follow a straight, mistake-free line in getting here today.  While other men will have a different approach, I hope this helps the men who have not yet decided about marriage to a RW. 

[mischief]

Mischief wrote,
I see value in your comments, and they are always well written.  My point is not that someone has "different criteria."  We all have more criteria because there is so much involved in deciding compatibility. 

The qualities you listed are indeed noble, yet one is not important IMO, and is the subject of this thread.  That is her attitude towards her country, which has largely influenced my own opinion.

She is far from "...positive about the country she lives in"  because she has had exposure to the West, reads about the differences, sees the stark contrast, and is able to understand how Russian life has affected her mentally, physically, and economically.  For sure she sees positive aspects of Russian life, enjoys them and will miss them.  Yet, they dwindle in comparison to the negative aspects of Russia and  to the positive aspects of her future home (which she has seen).  And I understand many married RW living in America feel the same.


Contrary to what you may feel, the Prima Donna (and I should not use that term because it is too judgmental) indeed took pride in her work:  circus performer, European fashion model, radio celebrity and hairdresser. 

Did she see the best in other people?  Perhaps you are correct because she had this mistrust so prevalent among RW (a product of the extreme life and extreme people there?).   Any mistake I made was ...... suffice to say she did not give me the benefit of the doubt.  In contrast my Moscow woman is forgiving (after a tongue lashing).

Gator, you know I like you...  I just could not ignore your comment about "rotten society" ... I see all the flaws and problems of the society I grew up in... I'm not stupid or blind... but this is the society where I grew up, learn about right and wrong, where I felt happy and loved... the society which made me who I am today and I'm proud of who I am... and I do find it offensive if someone calls it rotten, who would not??

In my comment about "still being able to see the positive in her country she lives in" I meant something different to what you understood... let me explain, any thinking person sees clearly the problems in his/her country and most of people I know are just bitching about it and having it as an excuse instead of making the most of the situation they are in...
at the same time I see my mom, who is the most intelligent and hard working person I know, just doing her job the best she can in spite of low salary, all ridiculously stupid problems she has to deal with because the government fails to understand what the hell they are doing and tries to interfere, cover up or cancell researches exposing something which would make the country look bad in the world's eyes... and many other things which make scientists and all other people frustrated on the daily basis...with all that, if any foreigner asks her about Belarus, she will always find something positive to point out simply because the negatives are vivid to anyone anyway...

[DKMM]

I'm not worried about the risk of change.  When other factors are considered I stand by my plan.  All of this is a risk, and hopefully a calculated one instead of based on emotions.  To clarify I mean someone about 23.  I'm talking with 3 girls right now all that age and all about to graduate this summer.  It seems to be the time in their life the iron is hot so to speak.

Gator, sounds like you had a girl like my ex.  I was totally missing out on those qualities that you now have found.  A Prima Donna isn't for me either, I am way too laid back.  I'm even getting the same kind of emails, but with the added question of whether I'll take her back (but vague to hide the pride, if you know what I'm saying).

[Kuna]

I'm not worried about the risk of change.  When other factors are considered I stand by my plan.  All of this is a risk, and hopefully a calculated one instead of based on emotions.  To clarify I mean someone about 23.  I'm talking with 3 girls right now all that age and all about to graduate this summer.  It seems to be the time in their life the iron is hot so to speak.

Be very afraid... IMHO it's the biggest risk and the one I was trying most to avoid.

Scammers???  Who cares - you should be able to pick them....  Pro-daters???  Who cares - the damage is relatively small...  Failed Marriage???  That's the biggie!

How many "mule" stories do you hear of where you think the woman genuinely planned to use the man as a mule? I think it's more likely she arrives and realises the world (or her partner) is far different than she ever imagines.

For this reason I was looking for someone with life experience... and thankfully I found someone with a broader view than I could of hoped for because of her study in Germany.

Not being afraid of a girl who is expected to change is like leaving success to a pure gamble...  As a friend I would sincerely urge you against it!

DKMM, any relationship in this day and age is a risk but the key to our long term happiness is minimising the risk.  Isn't that one of the reasons some men look to FSU to start with...  to find women with stronger family values?

Don't gamble anything.  Develop a plan that is low risk... the lowest risk you can establish.  Twenty three years of age is high risk in some people's eyes but I htink that age is fine - AS LONG AS YOU'RE PLANNING A 3+ YEAR COURTING PERIOD.   

Kuna

[BC]

Don't gamble anything.  Develop a plan that is low risk... the lowest risk you can establish.  Twenty three years of age is high risk in some people's eyes but I htink that age is fine - AS LONG AS YOU'RE PLANNING A 3+ YEAR COURTING PERIOD.   

Getting married at a young age surely carries risk.. getting married to a woman much younger than you carries risk².

DKMM,

How old are you?